Race fuels ? Toluene ?
Discussion
Any opinions ? for say a turbocharged application.
Any good, bad, should avoid ? Are they really worth paying the vast sums of money for ?
Which would be best for guaranteed results of more power, with the least amount of re-tuning ( no leaded or corrosive stuff )
It's something Ive never bothered with, but just seems everyone is using such things. So curious as to if they really are worth the extra ?
Typically what gains are possible on something making say 200hp per litre ? Or maybe more ?
Only stuff available locally at semi-sensible price is Panta. Anyone using their stuff ?
Or how would it compare to running say 20-30% Toluene ? which is fairly cheap ( again never tried it either, although a friend has recently in a VAG TFSI thingy )
Any good, bad, should avoid ? Are they really worth paying the vast sums of money for ?
Which would be best for guaranteed results of more power, with the least amount of re-tuning ( no leaded or corrosive stuff )
It's something Ive never bothered with, but just seems everyone is using such things. So curious as to if they really are worth the extra ?
Typically what gains are possible on something making say 200hp per litre ? Or maybe more ?
Only stuff available locally at semi-sensible price is Panta. Anyone using their stuff ?
Or how would it compare to running say 20-30% Toluene ? which is fairly cheap ( again never tried it either, although a friend has recently in a VAG TFSI thingy )
The cars dont have any detonation issues at present. Ive run close to 40psi on some cars with no detonation problems, usually with water/meth at those levels with 97 RON, which is best we can get locally at the pump
That's not really the query. It's as to whether the fancy race fuels as well as giving that huge safety margin, will they also easily simply yield more power.
Safety is one aspect...but they're safe already. Could they be safer ? I guess yes.
But it's mainly the release of more power I want.
A local supplier sells Panta XS RON 115, race fuel. Supposed to be a top of the line fuel, oxygenated etc.
Some of the drifters etc use it, and obviously the guy I'd be buying it from...except he's never actually done any back to back testing with pump fuel.
They just seem to use it, chuck a lot of timing in and away they go. Seems easy for them to make power, and cool EGT's and almost impossible to see detonation ( which I find hard to believe )
Not really the sort of approach I was after...but I guess there dont seem to be any potential problems form using it.
Running pure methanol is not on the cards, nor is mixing it with the fuel, at least in the case of my own car. ( have done that before on other cars )
Water/meth injection covers that aspect anyway.
Toluene...can be bought for around £1/litre off egay. Cheaper than petrol...which makes it appealing...if it really would yield some benefits.
But other than pump fuel and a little bit of water or meth...fuels are just something Ive never experimented with. Mainly because fancy stuff costs so damn much, and anything other than 97 isnt available here anyway. So was little point worrying about it !
That's not really the query. It's as to whether the fancy race fuels as well as giving that huge safety margin, will they also easily simply yield more power.
Safety is one aspect...but they're safe already. Could they be safer ? I guess yes.
But it's mainly the release of more power I want.
A local supplier sells Panta XS RON 115, race fuel. Supposed to be a top of the line fuel, oxygenated etc.
Some of the drifters etc use it, and obviously the guy I'd be buying it from...except he's never actually done any back to back testing with pump fuel.
They just seem to use it, chuck a lot of timing in and away they go. Seems easy for them to make power, and cool EGT's and almost impossible to see detonation ( which I find hard to believe )
Not really the sort of approach I was after...but I guess there dont seem to be any potential problems form using it.
Running pure methanol is not on the cards, nor is mixing it with the fuel, at least in the case of my own car. ( have done that before on other cars )
Water/meth injection covers that aspect anyway.
Toluene...can be bought for around £1/litre off egay. Cheaper than petrol...which makes it appealing...if it really would yield some benefits.
But other than pump fuel and a little bit of water or meth...fuels are just something Ive never experimented with. Mainly because fancy stuff costs so damn much, and anything other than 97 isnt available here anyway. So was little point worrying about it !
SteveSlowboy said:
I've asked this question of both engine builders and dyno operaters; The consensus being that the main benefit of proper race fuels are more consistent than pump fuel, meaning you can (safely) map closer to the det limits. BUT at getting on for a fiver a litre is quite expensive!
Fo N/A engines, I was told the (power/torque)difference between high octane race fuels and a quality "Super" pump fuel is hardly measurable - unless the engine has specifically been built to suit. Even then, on the likes of 1000cc bike engines you're only talking a couple of horses.
For turbo/supercharged engines I think it's a different story - with much bigger gains if the engine has been built to suit.
I agree it is expensive, which is why Ive never even considered it before. But for one event...why not.Fo N/A engines, I was told the (power/torque)difference between high octane race fuels and a quality "Super" pump fuel is hardly measurable - unless the engine has specifically been built to suit. Even then, on the likes of 1000cc bike engines you're only talking a couple of horses.
For turbo/supercharged engines I think it's a different story - with much bigger gains if the engine has been built to suit.
But E85 seems to yield a lot more potential than pump fuel....just it's more complicated to use, and still not readily available.
Race fuels, certainly at the upper end are supposed to also yield a lot more power.
Detonation itself isnt an issue. Hell, I could just use water injection alone and never have it be a problem...it doesnt mean using other options cannot yield a lot more power. It's the very reason we use water/meth, or meth alone in that application.
Hoped there'd be more info out there.
Berw said:
I use Panta race fuel in a Nissan SR20 et, on the dyno it shows around 50 bhp improvement on 97 V power, follwing a remap, when first put in without the remap, it showed no real vemnet, don't ask me why I let my race engineer look after the turbo car. we get around 450 BHp from the SR20 with bigger injectors, turbo and A Haltek ECU there is more available but 450 is reliable and car is ony 628kg
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