Bosch 044 pump and fuel supply
Discussion
Maths 
not my strong point...
Does anyone have any first hand knowledge as to how much flywheel bhp we can wring out of an 044 on a turbo I4 on pump or race fuel? (not E85)
I've got a car in i've just built the engine for, it's easily capable of 650bhp and has one of these pumps already fitted, i'm thinking it will be 'borderline' with not a lot left in hand at that power. We're currently running a GT 35, but the customer will eventually fit a GTX35. We're past the 500 mark on an honest Dyno-dynamics, but have hit some issues with the engines peripherals which were not down to me, before going back later with a new non Chinese FPR and improved wiring I need to be sure we'll make the figures.
Lets assume 2bar boost, 3 bar Fuel Pressure at idle, 1:1 ratio giving 4 bar FP
Using the equation HP x K where K = 7.3 and HP is 650 gives me 4.745 (cc/min) x 60 = 285LPH
Using this graph part way down here http://radiumauto.com/media/techarticle-page.php?R...
Reckons 300lph at 4bar.
Now that isn't much headroom, but then why does it state further down the page that an 044 will supply enough fuel for 773bhp?
I'm also thinking the customer supplied ID 1000cc are going to fall a bit short too and will need at least 1200....
not my strong point...Does anyone have any first hand knowledge as to how much flywheel bhp we can wring out of an 044 on a turbo I4 on pump or race fuel? (not E85)
I've got a car in i've just built the engine for, it's easily capable of 650bhp and has one of these pumps already fitted, i'm thinking it will be 'borderline' with not a lot left in hand at that power. We're currently running a GT 35, but the customer will eventually fit a GTX35. We're past the 500 mark on an honest Dyno-dynamics, but have hit some issues with the engines peripherals which were not down to me, before going back later with a new non Chinese FPR and improved wiring I need to be sure we'll make the figures.
Lets assume 2bar boost, 3 bar Fuel Pressure at idle, 1:1 ratio giving 4 bar FP
Using the equation HP x K where K = 7.3 and HP is 650 gives me 4.745 (cc/min) x 60 = 285LPH
Using this graph part way down here http://radiumauto.com/media/techarticle-page.php?R...
Reckons 300lph at 4bar.
Now that isn't much headroom, but then why does it state further down the page that an 044 will supply enough fuel for 773bhp?
I'm also thinking the customer supplied ID 1000cc are going to fall a bit short too and will need at least 1200....
Edited by Evoluzione on Tuesday 20th January 15:29
stevieturbo said:
Max_Torque said:
I.E. No one is making a real 750bhp on an 044 without assistance.
The Yanks do...rwhp too ! lol
I was thinking of going onto 8 injectors on this job too, but as it's on an M400 we'll just have to stick with big singles...
poppopbangbang said:
Thought about a mechanical pump? The stuff we use on the F1s is basically a modified hydraulic pump and we do getting on for 800bhp at 10bar rail pressure on them. Just need a sensible lift pump setup to supply them 15psi or so.
It's an interesting idea and maybe one that can maybe utilised in the future, how big and heavy and costly are they? The pic has no scale, but looking at the expected component sizes it looks quite small. Given it is engine driven it will create more pressure the more RPM it spins at right?Well after some thought I think it's wise to go with what we have at this time as I feel the 1000cc injectors, 044 pump and GT35 aren't too bad a match as they stand. True the engine may not develop it's full potential as yet, but we can work on that later.
What we will do is finish mapping, see what it does, what maxes out and then lower the boost pressure to bring it back to within safety levels and run it as it is. There is a lot more to do on the rest of the car to keep up with this engine.
Phase two will include a GTX40, better fuelling and a better intake manifold, the OE bunch of bananas isn't doing us many favours I think and a newer straight shot type with dual plenum will give some good reward.
Regarding an 8 injector set up my thoughts are that it's now perhaps outdated to have another set working further back up the manifold runners as modern injectors don't need these extra time/length for the fuel to mix?
One thing that's bothering me is the other parts of the fuel system, he's fitted a Walbro 255lph (in the tank) as a lifter pump and the swirl pot looks around .75 litres (will check this later). Given that the Walbro isn't supplying under pressure will it keep up with the 044? I'm worried the 044 could drain the swirl pot on a long straight maybe, it's a little too close for my liking so may just upgrade that and/or just the swirl pot.
I need to upgrade the lines too from the 255 (or whatever) to the 'pot as the internal diameter is only 4mm.
I was only supposed to be speccing and building the engine! How we get sucked into these things, thanks for reading and the suggestions, sometimes it's useful just for me to type this stuff out as often the answer springs out at me halfway through typing a post.
What we will do is finish mapping, see what it does, what maxes out and then lower the boost pressure to bring it back to within safety levels and run it as it is. There is a lot more to do on the rest of the car to keep up with this engine.
Phase two will include a GTX40, better fuelling and a better intake manifold, the OE bunch of bananas isn't doing us many favours I think and a newer straight shot type with dual plenum will give some good reward.
Regarding an 8 injector set up my thoughts are that it's now perhaps outdated to have another set working further back up the manifold runners as modern injectors don't need these extra time/length for the fuel to mix?
One thing that's bothering me is the other parts of the fuel system, he's fitted a Walbro 255lph (in the tank) as a lifter pump and the swirl pot looks around .75 litres (will check this later). Given that the Walbro isn't supplying under pressure will it keep up with the 044? I'm worried the 044 could drain the swirl pot on a long straight maybe, it's a little too close for my liking so may just upgrade that and/or just the swirl pot.
I need to upgrade the lines too from the 255 (or whatever) to the 'pot as the internal diameter is only 4mm.
I was only supposed to be speccing and building the engine! How we get sucked into these things, thanks for reading and the suggestions, sometimes it's useful just for me to type this stuff out as often the answer springs out at me halfway through typing a post.
Edited by Evoluzione on Friday 13th February 11:29
Thanks once again for the suggestions, I found the Walbro specs and it gave enough free flow to do what I needed, so I made it's job easy and off we went.
Sadly the map sensor didn't read over 2bar so the power curve flatlined instead of climbing, nevermind, another map sensor, another day. Torque peaked good and early at about 4200 though, not bad for a biggish turbo (GT35).
So apart from looking for suggestions on 4 bar map sensors, any thoughts on why the curves climb, peak, dip, then carry on up?
Initial thoughts are boost controller backing it off or (less likely) plenum volume too small perhaps?
Sadly the map sensor didn't read over 2bar so the power curve flatlined instead of climbing, nevermind, another map sensor, another day. Torque peaked good and early at about 4200 though, not bad for a biggish turbo (GT35).
So apart from looking for suggestions on 4 bar map sensors, any thoughts on why the curves climb, peak, dip, then carry on up?
Initial thoughts are boost controller backing it off or (less likely) plenum volume too small perhaps?
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