FIAT 500 - gearbox failure at 30,000 miles. Dealer sorts it?

[PhillipM]

Hey all, one of those 'what would you do?' threads again...

I have here a '12 plate Fiat 500 of a family members, it's done 30,000 miles, and the gearbox has failed, in that it's making a massive amount of clattering and whining noise under any load - sounds like the input shaft bearing after having a good look around it.
Anyway, I've dropped 500ml of oil out of the box just for a quick confirm and the oil is indeed full of long flakes that look like spalling from a bearing race, so I decided not to touch it and get them to contact the dealer - after all, a gearbox shouldn't be dying at 30k regardless of warranty period, right?

Dealer has basically just washed all hands of it saying its out of warranty now and not their problem. I'm of the opinion he should try and push it further with FIAT UK, but he's wonder whether to just cut his losses and have me fit a secondhand box, etc, to get him back on the road asap.

I'd like a few second opinions - is it just a 'tough, suck it up' or does he have a reasonable complaint to go FIAT with here?

[PhillipM]

I'm not sure on the servicing front, I'll have to check, but I do know he's the second owner - bought it when it was about 12 months old I think, so that won't help.

[PhillipM]

TooMany2cvs said:

"...and that's why the box is very low on oil, honest..."

Nah, cleared that with the dealer before they got back to say they weren't going to do anything.
I'm not (quite) that daft

[PhillipM]

I'm not entirely sure how you'd have an input bearing failure from poor driving to be honest. Syncro's I could understand, possibly, if you drove like a complete ape, diff maybe if you clouted a kerb really hard under power - but they're all fine - and the metal in the oil isn't yellow metal or moly from synchros:

Edited by PhillipM on Wednesday 27th January 19:25

[PhillipM]

AS most said, bit of a waste of time chasing this, Fiat UK being pretty evasive, they won't commit to anything unless the dealers diagnosed it and taken the 'box off, even if assuming it's definately the input bearings* they won't give a guideline or rough idea as to whether they'd help out or not.
So basically, cost of transport to the dealer, a diagnostic scan (not sure why they insist it needs a £70-80 diagnostic scan, there's nothing going to show up a gearbox fault in the sensor system...) and £2200 to replace the gearbox, and halfway through Fiat might or might not contribute....very helpful.


*Not sure what else they think it's going to be given it sounds like a brick in a blender and the gearbox oil is chock full of steel particles...I've just drained a 100k, 16 year old Jag gearbox and it was spotless. The 500's looks like it's unrefined crude...

Edited by PhillipM on Wednesday 10th February 12:10

[PhillipM]

jamieduff1981 said:

It shouldn't happen and it's no excuse, but less unpleasantness, anxiety, stress and time will be lost by just fitting a 2nd hand gearbox.

From a business point of view, I don't blame the dealer in wanting nothing to do with it. They didn't build the faulty car - if it's anyones' responsibility to rectify the issue at their cost, it's not the dealer. Fiat UK may possibly be shamed in to it but it'll probably be a slog.

If it were me, I'd start with Fiat UK with a well-written (factual, well laid out and written in good English) correspondence and see what sort of response you get. If it's positive, great. If it's negative, post it on their Twitter page with a big "fk you" and get on with the 2nd hand 'box.

I've already been in touch with Fiat UK, it was them that said they won't even consider anything until the dealer has removed the gearbox to check, they won't even discuss what they might do even if that was assumed as the problem.

As you say, it's going to get the box pulled and refurbed, less hassle. But I might take plenty of pictures to tag Fiat in...

[PhillipM]

Isn't it? It's an input bearing failure on a 30,000 mile old box. It's hardly from lack of servicing or abuse is it?

What I'd expect is for them to go "if it's a manufacturing fault with the gearbox, we'll swap the box for free if you cover the labour, if it's abuse, you get the bill" - not a reply of "Well, we might, or might not, we can't discuss it yet. Maybe."

[PhillipM]

Soov535 said:

Warranty's expired and you've tampered with it.

No chance.

Tampered with it? Does your engine warranty expire when you check the level on the dipstick too?

[PhillipM]

TooMany2cvs said:

So how often does your owner's handbook suggest the owner should drain the gearbox oil? Weekly, as with the dipstick?

It's not drained, I just took a sample from the hole that there's for checking the fill level. You know, the plug that's there exactly for the specific purpose of checking the oil level in your gearbox.

Edited by PhillipM on Wednesday 10th February 19:54

[PhillipM]

Soov535 said:

They can quite legitimately claim that the low oil might have caused it.

They can, but since it's not at the age where a gear oil replacement is required and it's quite obviously the old original oil, I'm not sure how well that would work out for them. Because it would have had to be low or leaking from the factory...

[PhillipM]

gtidriver said:

Does the car have any/full service history with FIAT or has it been serviced out of the dealer network.???

I think everything bar the last service (although that might be because it's only just due, not sure), but I'd have to check the book.

Edited by PhillipM on Wednesday 10th February 20:27

[PhillipM]

Kolbenkopp said:

Think legally you are out of luck, but I'd try to get something out of them if I was in your situation.

Perhaps it helps a bit putting yourself in FIAT's shoes? Imagine the guy being in charge of goodwill operations there. His goal is probably only to help with the most obvious and/or damaging (reputation wise) cases. I also assume such a guy will get presented a lot of crap -- people blaming failures where clearly the product is not at fault but the user is.

So first up would be to clearly establish the fault is a result of a manufacturing defect. Is the main dealer the best place for this? Not sure, but if they are interested in future business with you they might be.

Once that is established a written complaint to FIAT HQ telling them you are quite disappointed with the product and expect some help. Worth trying IMO, since this is not *that* much work.

I can imagine, yes, but given the cost to diagnose and then remove the box is the same as fitting a new gearbox anywhere else but a dealer would be....it wouldn't be that hard for them to just say 'Yes, IF it's a manufacturing defect we'll cover it, if not you'll foot the bill' rather than 'sorry, can't comment on what we might or might not do'

Basically that means we could take it down, pay for diagnosis, pay for the gearbox removing, for Fiat to turn around and go 'yes, manufacturing defect, but out of warranty, sorry' - in which case we're no better off but the car is now stuck at the dealers with no gearbox and a fair bill.

[PhillipM]

We had a Brava do that at 60k a couple of years back, 2nd gear let go on the way down the box and it spat the bits out of the bottom of the casing
At 60k you can just about stomach it, and with it being 2nd gear just put it down to previous abuse.
Funnily enough it would still just about drive in first with a lot of clonking and squealing noises. Not bad for a big hole in the box where the teeth had fallen out...

[PhillipM]

MrBarry123 said:

Being as honest as possible OP, how kindly do you think the car has been teated?

Whilst gearboxes shouldn't go that early, treated badly they quite easily can.

Honestly? It's perfect, the rest of the car is spotless, there's not a mark on it, it's got decent matching tyres on, etc, etc.
I can understand mistreated gearboxes doing synchros, or lunching a diff, but not an input bearing.

[PhillipM]

Blaster72 said:

I love how the OP has diagnosed a specific bearing just from a visual check of a few small bits of debris in a sample of gearbox oil.

It's very easy to tell which area of a gearbox the noise is generated from with a simple check, the oil debris was just to confirm to be honest. I have rebuilt quite a few gearboxes, I'll just rebuild this one*, it'll cost less than Fiat are going to charge just to diagnose the 'box and then possibly tell him to ps off anyway, but that's not the point.


*I ain't paying £250 for a 'refreshed' gearbox from ebay that's just had a steam clean and a zinc plated end cap fitted, they ought to be banned from trading tbfh)

Edited by PhillipM on Wednesday 10th February 22:01

[PhillipM]

Weeks? I'll rebuild a gearbox in half a day...and I know I haven't just fitted a secondhand box with the same problem to his car.

[PhillipM]

Rick1.8t said:

Are you retired? If not I would rather spend half a day doing anything else but rebuild a pos fiat 500 gearbox but each to their own....

Sounds like you have it all sorted anyway so this thread is all much of muchness now - Crack that haynes manual out and get the anorak on!

I'd rather not spend any time at all on a POS Fiat 500 with a fked 'box, but if you read the thread you might realise it's not f***ing mine, but since it looks like I'll be spending half a day removing and refitting one anyway the other half rebuilding it is hardly a chore now is it?

[PhillipM]

Rick1.8t said:

How long has this car alread been off the road leaving the owner without transport while you extract oil for analysis?

As long as it took for him to go back and forth with Fiat about it. He has 2 other cars, I don't think he minds. Well, he might since his Clio just got ran into, but I think he'll probably buy another small runaround that's probably not going to be another Fiat.

[PhillipM]

Kolbenkopp said:

Ah, OK -- makes perfect sense that way, reading that you are capable of fixing the thing yourself. I'd still let them know your reasoning and give them some 'consumer feedback' on their product. Never know what comes out of it and it's only a stamp and a few minutes to write a letter.

Yeah, diagnosing or doing the work was never the issue - more whether we should be doing it at all!
And as many have said, it is out of warranty, still disappointing mind.

[PhillipM]

Kolbenkopp said:

Ah, OK -- makes perfect sense that way, reading that you are capable of fixing the thing yourself. I'd still let them know your reasoning and give them some 'consumer feedback' on their product. Never know what comes out of it and it's only a stamp and a few minutes to write a letter.

The response to that was basically 'Thanks, we can see your reasoning/concerns, good luck'


Anyway, out of the dead ends, took the 'box off this evening, and as suspected, the input shaft bearing is mashed (I must be lucky eh? Mister Internet Expert told me you can't diagnose a gearbox like that.... ) - the inner race is all spalled/pitted where it's picked up - the rest of the box and the selectors/synchros looks like they've survived the bits of swarf though so hopefully a good wash down and check over will mean the bulk of it is reusable, just new bearings and seals.
Thankfully the bearing that's failed is a standard off-the-shelf unit (6204-2RSH), nothing fancy or bespoke, and the input seals and diff seals are easy to get hold of too, so the local suppliers can have me one for saturday morning.
New clutch going in whilst it's off and a set of brakes discs and pads as it's due some in a couple of k anyway and should be back on the road.

Edited by PhillipM on Thursday 11th February 22:28