Gutted, mapping :(
Discussion
Just had the car mapped. Made good gains over bottom and mid range but nothing and I mean NOTHING at the top!! The guy thinks there must be some kind of restriction but can't find it, we checked the throttle body and induction kit but both are fine? The car has had wortec headers, hi flow cats, full stainless system with "x" pipe, 227/233 cam and otrcai. So was expecting more than 360 rwhp!!! Any ideas? I'll put a pick of the graph up when I get home.
stigmundfreud said:
who did the mapping? Hope it wasnt Fingers McKrakin
Whats to say it wasnt already mapped, it probably was with headers and system... you may already have been at peak but not optimised elswhere which you have now fixed.
Thing is, you dont ever use the power up the top of the range so enjoy the extra bottom end
It's never been mapped as I bought the car standard and done all the work my self, should defiantly find more than 7bhp on the top end! Whats to say it wasnt already mapped, it probably was with headers and system... you may already have been at peak but not optimised elswhere which you have now fixed.
Thing is, you dont ever use the power up the top of the range so enjoy the extra bottom end
mikeyb1987 said:
Contrary to the above, the LS2 ECU is fine for mapping. And top end gain is important as some of us do use it instead of driving like miss Daisy!! With a cam like that, it can support more airflow higher up the Rev range. The issue is you have a restriction somewhere else- in effect, the cam (which was a bottleneck) has been changed and another unrealised bottleneck has raised its ugly head.
I would say the intake manifold, and then probably the heads.
Eta- what's the full cam spec? (LSA etc.)
Mikey, I totally agree about needing the top end! Mine gets used all the time! I've seen cars with near identical spec pumping out way more, just seems a not a big gain for all the effort!I would say the intake manifold, and then probably the heads.
Eta- what's the full cam spec? (LSA etc.)
jonnM said:
mailer555 said:
Yeah, ls2, standard intake manifold.
Get a Fast 102 on there!Who mapped it?
mikeyb1987 said:
mailer555 said:
Mikey, I totally agree about needing the top end! Mine gets used all the time! I've seen cars with near identical spec pumping out way more, just seems a not a big gain for all the effort!
Out of interest John, what were you expecting power-wise? 360rwhp is pretty good. Admittedly, it looks like there's power left to gain, but there does appear to be a restriction (the drop off higher up the Rev range is the indicator).More importantly, what does it drive like
Edited by mikeyb1987 on Monday 22 December 19:42
mikeyb1987 said:
jameshsv said:
Ok yes m8 i forget silly me.Why did you not go for a bit bigger cam then.
Based on research (and a lot of nudging in the right direction from Ringram 
) I believed my cam spec to be ideal. I still do! It's completely exceeded my expectations. In fact the only down-side is the mapping, but that's another story 
stigmundfreud said:
mailer555 said:
mikeyb1987 said:
mailer555 said:
Mikey, I totally agree about needing the top end! Mine gets used all the time! I've seen cars with near identical spec pumping out way more, just seems a not a big gain for all the effort!
Out of interest John, what were you expecting power-wise? 360rwhp is pretty good. Admittedly, it looks like there's power left to gain, but there does appear to be a restriction (the drop off higher up the Rev range is the indicator).More importantly, what does it drive like
Edited by mikeyb1987 on Monday 22 December 19:42
you chould have shoved a truck cam in there, you have not mentioned your spec so whats the lift whats the lsa as that will give you an indication. You could have a tug boat cam
Mikey, I've not got manifold stats to look at.
ARAF said:
Have you tried running on the dyno without the filter element in?
I doubt your exhaust set up is to blame.
Yeah, first we took the OTR off but that messed everything up cos the air was to turbulent so we refitted it but with out the filter and it gained 2bhp at the top, so no real difference. We ruled that out, also checked if the TB was opening fully and it was. I doubt your exhaust set up is to blame.
Ok, cam spec as follows
Lunati voodoo 227/233
Lobe separation 113
Better just put up a pic, is this everything you need? Also all the recommended parts were used in the form of valve springs, push rods etc. the only thing I was wondering about was about timing, the tuner tried 1 deg advance which made no difference but I was wondering if he should have tried more than that?
Lunati voodoo 227/233
Lobe separation 113
Better just put up a pic, is this everything you need? Also all the recommended parts were used in the form of valve springs, push rods etc. the only thing I was wondering about was about timing, the tuner tried 1 deg advance which made no difference but I was wondering if he should have tried more than that?
MadMaxHSV said:
mailer555 said:
Well the monkfish kit gets just shy of 500bhp with a smaller cam? So was expecting those kind of figures.
500 RWHP?.... Don't think so. At the fly maybe.You're not comparing apples with apples.
And what's wrong with mapping the E40 Stig?
Easier than those horrible VVE tables in the new E38's.stevieturbo said:
Was the cam installed correctly ? suitable springs ? lifter pre-load ?
Was a full power run done before the work was carried out so you actually have a before/after result ?
And did the "tuner" notice anything odd when mapping it ? ie timing requirements, fueling requirements etc ?
How does airflow look ?
There was no run done before the cam was fitted as it was a different company that fitted the cam. When we done the first run today the car was running a bit lean, but apart from that nothing out the norm. I e only got the printout that I've put up, it's all the info I have. Timing was fine, tried advancing by 1 and made no difference so he said that there was no point advancing it any further.Was a full power run done before the work was carried out so you actually have a before/after result ?
And did the "tuner" notice anything odd when mapping it ? ie timing requirements, fueling requirements etc ?
How does airflow look ?
Guys, thanks for all the comments so far!
I'm not trying to hunt a particular figure, what I'm trying to do is get to the bottom of why it peaks at 5800rpm and basically flat lines at that as even the tuner had said it should still be pulling and gaining, it was the tuner that had said there is a restriction of some kind at the top end. The final hp figure is not that important, getting to the bottom of the restriction is.
I'm not trying to hunt a particular figure, what I'm trying to do is get to the bottom of why it peaks at 5800rpm and basically flat lines at that as even the tuner had said it should still be pulling and gaining, it was the tuner that had said there is a restriction of some kind at the top end. The final hp figure is not that important, getting to the bottom of the restriction is.
stigmundfreud said:
right so he didnt do any timin changes? did he map the ve? is he familiar with mapping an e40 ecu?
You need to dial in your tune then start adjusting things, like timing, you can go quite agressive on them.
what were your afr readings through the run? You really need to do both dyno and on road mapping to get the most out of it, remember with MF they have a dialed in base map they then customise with some road runs to finesse due to slight diffrences from car to car.
there must have been something done to your fueling to accomodate for the 30% extra exhaust capacity and the OTR?
Heres a tip if not done, whack the afr probe in and watch the afr during a run, if you aint changed the commanded fuel under wide open throttle it was around 1.2 eq too rich out of the box but your exhaust, headers and otr should have leaned things up. Watch the afr and report back. What was he doing if not doing timing too? Was he just pissing around with the commadned AFR? If so, your figures are to be expected. For reference with nothing more than an ls1, some headers and a new system I tuned over an additional 70hp out of a cv8 by optimising VE tables (the efficiency for mixing fuel/air per rpm per cylinder) and spark tables. I never finished it off but look, no cam, no OTR and 70bhp, that took time with a wideband, a laptop, patience and then a few dyno runs to finish off
Stig, sounds like you know a lot about this! As you may have noticed, I have no idea when it ones to mapping, I have got the full efi live package which we used to do the map, but the questions you have asked I cannot answer. Like I said earlier I thought he might have done a bit more on the timing, I can down load my map, is it worth sending to someone to have a look at? And if so where can I send it? You need to dial in your tune then start adjusting things, like timing, you can go quite agressive on them.
what were your afr readings through the run? You really need to do both dyno and on road mapping to get the most out of it, remember with MF they have a dialed in base map they then customise with some road runs to finesse due to slight diffrences from car to car.
there must have been something done to your fueling to accomodate for the 30% extra exhaust capacity and the OTR?
Heres a tip if not done, whack the afr probe in and watch the afr during a run, if you aint changed the commanded fuel under wide open throttle it was around 1.2 eq too rich out of the box but your exhaust, headers and otr should have leaned things up. Watch the afr and report back. What was he doing if not doing timing too? Was he just pissing around with the commadned AFR? If so, your figures are to be expected. For reference with nothing more than an ls1, some headers and a new system I tuned over an additional 70hp out of a cv8 by optimising VE tables (the efficiency for mixing fuel/air per rpm per cylinder) and spark tables. I never finished it off but look, no cam, no OTR and 70bhp, that took time with a wideband, a laptop, patience and then a few dyno runs to finish off
Edited by mailer555 on Monday 22 December 22:50
I think you're right, he only played with the afr! What's my best way. Forward In your opinion? I have efi live but no idea how to use it!
Edited by mailer555 on Monday 22 December 22:55
this is what I love about this forum, the amount of guys that can and will help put you in the right direction is amazing! stig and araf, thanks again for the info, it's really appreciated, I'm going to start reading up on the efi live and see if I think its worth me trying as it is totally new to me (very scared of doing more damage than good right now, lol) but thanks for the links! stig if you want the efi live when I'm done just PM me and we'll sort it out. did you have a look at my cam spec? I researched this cam for months before I bought it and thought it ideal for the LS2? mym8v8, thanks for the offer of looking at the map, if I can work out how to do that I'll ping them down to you, would be great for a second opinion on how its looking.
Ok, to try and. Clear things up, the tuner has done a few of these cars before but efi live is not the main software he uses. He did think something was restricting the top end but in the time we had could not pin point it. I booked 4 hours of dyno time as per his recommendation, that was an afternoon slot. I'm not doubting the tuner cos we used the slot available and could not go any further, he recommended trying to find what was restricting the top end my self before I booked back in with him. It maybe that the cars not right ( but judging by the graph, everything is working fine) it may be the map. But I need to find what is afecting the top end as ther should be more power up top than what is shown!
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