Tam very 'crashy' after Nitrons fitted!
Discussion
We drove to the Shelsley Walsh Hillclimb breakfast club today (although we arrived very late..), and the drive there was mainly B-Roads, not very good roads at that.
The car was very 'skittish' on these poor roads, and very crashy, it was horrible! It is the first time I have ever NOT enjoyed a drive in the Tamora.
I was told that the new Nitrons were set up as a 'happy-medium', not too hard and not too soft, but I am having trouble believing this - The ride now much stiffer and uncompromising than before on standards.
Also to blame, I think, is the ridiculously narrow tyre wall on the fronts (Toyo Proxi T1 Sport 225 35 18 - the wheel rim is about an inch from the ground with these things -I kerbed my alloy yesterday on a dropped kerb, FFS!)
This combination conspires to make the driving experience a nightmare. Not what I was hoping for after spending the best part of £1400 for the Nitrons and having them fitted.
So, the question is, where can I get these set up properly (I am in the Gloucestershire area), and is it worth changing the front tyres to a 225 40 18 profile, so the wheel rims aren't so close to the road (and tiny drop-kerbs)
No fun driving it right now
The car was very 'skittish' on these poor roads, and very crashy, it was horrible! It is the first time I have ever NOT enjoyed a drive in the Tamora.
I was told that the new Nitrons were set up as a 'happy-medium', not too hard and not too soft, but I am having trouble believing this - The ride now much stiffer and uncompromising than before on standards.
Also to blame, I think, is the ridiculously narrow tyre wall on the fronts (Toyo Proxi T1 Sport 225 35 18 - the wheel rim is about an inch from the ground with these things -I kerbed my alloy yesterday on a dropped kerb, FFS!)
This combination conspires to make the driving experience a nightmare. Not what I was hoping for after spending the best part of £1400 for the Nitrons and having them fitted.
So, the question is, where can I get these set up properly (I am in the Gloucestershire area), and is it worth changing the front tyres to a 225 40 18 profile, so the wheel rims aren't so close to the road (and tiny drop-kerbs)
No fun driving it right now
Edited by chris watton on Sunday 15th June 15:06
Cheers 
I am in Cinderford, in the Forest of Dean, about 16 miles from Gloucester.
I think ideally, I'd like to change the front tyres and have the ride height increased to compensate for the slightly larger tyre wall, and then have the Nitrons set up by people who know what they're doing.
ETA - I am used to sports cars and harsh rides, I like them like that, but these Nitrons and how they're set up is just plain uncomfortable!
I am in Cinderford, in the Forest of Dean, about 16 miles from Gloucester.I think ideally, I'd like to change the front tyres and have the ride height increased to compensate for the slightly larger tyre wall, and then have the Nitrons set up by people who know what they're doing.
ETA - I am used to sports cars and harsh rides, I like them like that, but these Nitrons and how they're set up is just plain uncomfortable!
Edited by chris watton on Sunday 15th June 15:29
TVRMs said:
Have you changed tyre pressures Chris?
No, haven't touched them - perhaps I better check them...ETA - should the pressures be the same as in the TVR handbook, or would they need to be different now, due to tyres not being the same as when the car was manufactured?
ETA 2 - Found the right pressures, 24psi for front and 26 for rear.
The fronts were more or less spot on (so they definitely need changing..), but the rears were both at 20psi, so pumped them up to 26..
Edited by chris watton on Sunday 15th June 15:55
s6boy said:
If I'm reading this correctly you changed the front tyres at the same time as fitting the Nitrons. If so did you change the profile from before? If not then most of the harshness will be down to the shocks. I don't have Nitrons but assume they're adjustable in the same way Gaz are, so in the short term before getting a pro set up get under the car, note the setting you have atm and then soften them all off 2 clicks.
No - I haven't changed the front tyres yet. They are all the same ones that were on the car when I bought it. I am suggesting that, if I change the front tyres to a set with a little more wall between the rim and the road, that may be better.The car is great on smooth roads. Trouble is, there are very few like that!
peteA said:
Hi Chris
Sorry to hear your having issues - as already suggested I'd try adjusting the dampers, softening them off until your happy with the ride and then see how the handling has been affected?
My suspension was rebuilt at HHC and my brief as it were was that I didn't want a skateboard that would be great for track days but unbearable everywhere else - result: I was recommended normal rubber bushes, eibach springs and standard 'latest spec' bilstein dampers. I'm very happy with how it turned out in terms of overall balance for road use...I would guess it would be ok for track use but the proof will be in the pudding as it were..,
Hope you get sorted
Cheers Pete Sorry to hear your having issues - as already suggested I'd try adjusting the dampers, softening them off until your happy with the ride and then see how the handling has been affected?
My suspension was rebuilt at HHC and my brief as it were was that I didn't want a skateboard that would be great for track days but unbearable everywhere else - result: I was recommended normal rubber bushes, eibach springs and standard 'latest spec' bilstein dampers. I'm very happy with how it turned out in terms of overall balance for road use...I would guess it would be ok for track use but the proof will be in the pudding as it were..,
Hope you get sorted
Am sure it'll be all sorted in the end - I wonder if the harsh ride shook one of my horns off its mounting, which is now sitting loose in the mouth of the tam.....
Edited by chris watton on Sunday 15th June 19:26
jesfirth said:
Chris, nitrons are excellent shocks and have good adjustment. It sounds as though the damping settings are just too high. Just set the shocks a couple of clicks softer and try it again. If it's still too hard try another couple of clicks. It will only take you five minutes to do and you can get it perfect for you. If you want to go back to basics just set each shock at full soft and work up form there. For normal road use I would guess at say 8 from soft front and 6 from soft rear would work well but it does depend on the spring rates. Don't go back to standard shocks. Nitrons are far superior and once they are set up right will be good. Jes
Thanks, Jes. I will take the car to Neil Garner or Topcats, so they will be sorted properly, and have the geo re-checked (even though I paid for that along with having the shocks fitted....)Edited by jesfirth on Sunday 15th June 19:03
jpp said:
Chris
I'd agree. I live about 2 miles from Shelsley and drive those roads all the time (v lucky, I know) and also run Toyos at the front.
My T350 on the original shocks took a lot of steering and power correction around there - lots of tram lining, bump steer and crashing (much more than my old Bilsteined Elise).
Power fitted and set up Gaz Pro Golds on mine last week. They kept the original ride height (avoids grounding for me) so all that has been changed is the geometry, damping and springs. The car is now much much more stable around there, so whilst it's bumpy I am no longer being thrown around or being pummelled.
I experimented with hardening off by 2 clicks and some crashiness returned.So, if softening the Nitrons off doesn't work I would be surprised, assuming your ride height is not causing you to ground or hit the stops (?), you've checked the tyre pressures and you don't mention tram lining.
The only other advice I was given was that if the fronts are set on the hard side of the adjustment range, softening the rear eventually can introduce 'crashiness' again. So perhaps start your fettling from the mid point at the rear? I avoided my first choice of the Bilsteins with Tuscan 2 rear rated Eibachs because the cost was up there with Nitrons (which I don't do enough track work to justify).
I didn't experience tramlining - I did with my first Tam and have it with our MGF Trophy 160 (with Bilstein racing shocks and everything polybushed) - I put that down more to the directional tyres (the 'V' grooved ones) fitted to both cars. (Toyo proxy directional for the Tam and Goodyear Eagle F1 GDS02 for the MG)I'd agree. I live about 2 miles from Shelsley and drive those roads all the time (v lucky, I know) and also run Toyos at the front.
My T350 on the original shocks took a lot of steering and power correction around there - lots of tram lining, bump steer and crashing (much more than my old Bilsteined Elise).
Power fitted and set up Gaz Pro Golds on mine last week. They kept the original ride height (avoids grounding for me) so all that has been changed is the geometry, damping and springs. The car is now much much more stable around there, so whilst it's bumpy I am no longer being thrown around or being pummelled.
I experimented with hardening off by 2 clicks and some crashiness returned.So, if softening the Nitrons off doesn't work I would be surprised, assuming your ride height is not causing you to ground or hit the stops (?), you've checked the tyre pressures and you don't mention tram lining.
The only other advice I was given was that if the fronts are set on the hard side of the adjustment range, softening the rear eventually can introduce 'crashiness' again. So perhaps start your fettling from the mid point at the rear? I avoided my first choice of the Bilsteins with Tuscan 2 rear rated Eibachs because the cost was up there with Nitrons (which I don't do enough track work to justify).
Tyre pressures are fine now, I checked them yesterday, and then did another 30 mile round trip to pick up step son from work in the Tam. Hard to tell if there was a difference, but the roads aren't nearly as bad here than they are on the Worcestershire B-Roads - but saying that, it is even slightly jarring driving over painted lines on the road at the moment.
I am surprised by this, as I was under the impression that the Nitrons were worth double what the Gaz shocks sell for, for both ride comfort and handling. I can only assume that what people meant was that, if you use the Nitrons for track days only, on completely smooth roads/tracks, they are great - but for the UK roads in 2014, I'm not so sure. The 12 year old originals I replaced seemed more compliant, at the moment, at least, until I can the Nitrons sets up for mainly road, rather than glass-smooth track.
I don't think I shall ever go down the polybush route for the Tam, too - I can only imagine the ride equating to driving with 4 solid steel bars at each corner, rather than springs and dampers....
TVRMs said:
Chris,
Did you get new springs with the shocks, and if so were they uprated?
24 front and rear is where I would want to be with my tyre pressures (hot settings not cold).
I run standard Billsteins on our road car, introns on my race car. Very happy with both.
Personally, I see little benefit in adjustable bump/rebound on a road car unless it's going to get on track frequently but I'm sure that yours will be 100% better after set-up. I would leave it a few weeks before doing it if you have new springs.
Yes, the springs came with the shocks - this was the package:Did you get new springs with the shocks, and if so were they uprated?
24 front and rear is where I would want to be with my tyre pressures (hot settings not cold).
I run standard Billsteins on our road car, introns on my race car. Very happy with both.
Personally, I see little benefit in adjustable bump/rebound on a road car unless it's going to get on track frequently but I'm sure that yours will be 100% better after set-up. I would leave it a few weeks before doing it if you have new springs.
m4tti said:
Who supplied them to you? Do you know what the spring rates are>
Racetech Direct - Spring rates are - fronts 400 and rear 325 Nitron own madehttp://www.racetechdirect.co.uk/tvr-car-part-ntctv...
Sevenman said:
I am there for most breakfast clubs and there has never been a second Tam, shame I missed it. Yesterday I was timing at the Curburgring so the TVR didn't get a run.
Link to last month's trip report.
I drive in from Herefordshire and have no problems making brisk progress. There are some bad roads around, but the ones on the way to Shelsley are ok.
The car is on Gaz Gold Pro with 400 lb/in front and 375 rear springs. I upped the rear from 325 as I found that too soft. All set-up by Neil Garner who did a grand job and the ride has since been complemented by the chaps at TVR Power when they were servicing the car.
I also have Toyo T1-Sport all round, 225/35 on the front. No problems with these, but am careful when near curbs.
225/40 is an option, but may need a > 1 cm suspension lift to keep the clearance inside the arch. Given it will already be 1 cm higher due to the increased sidewall height, that could be a total of 2cm up on the front (good for avoiding grounding the splitter) but you may need to get rear ride height raised to keep suitable rake and then have geo checked. I am a big fan of suitable ride height to allow suspension to do its work, and my Tam has gone up in stages since I bought it.
I may try 225/40 at some point, but not until the current tyres wear out (or more likely get changed due to age given current progress).
We (me and my wife) really enjoyed the venue when we were there - it was great seeing so many other fantastic cars, and not just TVR's (wife has a hankering to restore an old mini, and loved looking at the dozen or so there yesterday). Will definitely go again.Link to last month's trip report.
I drive in from Herefordshire and have no problems making brisk progress. There are some bad roads around, but the ones on the way to Shelsley are ok.
The car is on Gaz Gold Pro with 400 lb/in front and 375 rear springs. I upped the rear from 325 as I found that too soft. All set-up by Neil Garner who did a grand job and the ride has since been complemented by the chaps at TVR Power when they were servicing the car.
I also have Toyo T1-Sport all round, 225/35 on the front. No problems with these, but am careful when near curbs.
225/40 is an option, but may need a > 1 cm suspension lift to keep the clearance inside the arch. Given it will already be 1 cm higher due to the increased sidewall height, that could be a total of 2cm up on the front (good for avoiding grounding the splitter) but you may need to get rear ride height raised to keep suitable rake and then have geo checked. I am a big fan of suitable ride height to allow suspension to do its work, and my Tam has gone up in stages since I bought it.
I may try 225/40 at some point, but not until the current tyres wear out (or more likely get changed due to age given current progress).
Planning to do a road trip to Italy next year, so need the suspension sorted before then, and having the suspension slightly higher may be better for such a trip, too.
Anyway, am out of Tam funds now until my tax bill is paid....
ShiDevil said:
My second fav colour on a T350 :P Looks great mate Can't go wrong with CofG, it's all they do, so might as well take advantage.
Where is CofG? Bet they're miles away from me... Can't go wrong with CofG, it's all they do, so might as well take advantage.I have read that it costs around £400 to have the car set up perfectly, but I think that's money well spent if it transforms handling and ride quality.
At this point in time though, I honestly wish I had replaced the suspension with standard Bilsteins - I just hope the money spent on the Nitrons proves to be a good investment in the long run - first time I have ever spent money on the Tam and hated the results.
slimtater said:
Cheers - likewise, orange is my second favourite! 
CoG (actually just CG)are here Chris:
http://www.centregravity.co.uk/
Thanks for the link - not as far as I thought it'd be!CoG (actually just CG)are here Chris:
http://www.centregravity.co.uk/
Will book my Tam in and have a drive up there in a couple of months.
OK, I emailed Centre Gravity, and got a quote.
It looks quite thorough:
It looks quite thorough:
- Test drive and report
- Suspension test and report
- Inspect all suspension systems and components including dampers, springs, bushes and balljoints
- Pre load car with weight
- Tyre data check and adjust
- Ride height check and adjust (optimise for A/B road use)
- Corner weight check and adjust (for slalom use)
- Geometry check and adjust (optimise for A/B road use)
- Re check corner weights
- Set up adjustable anti roll bars (if applicable)
- Set up damper (bump/rebound)
- Customer test drive check and handover
- Before and after tyre, ride height and corner weight report
- Before and after geometry check and report
When you write 'Vreds', are you referring to these?;
http://www.clickontyres.co.uk/everyday-tyres/produ...
http://www.clickontyres.co.uk/everyday-tyres/produ...
TVRMs said:
Chris, it's almost certainly not down to tyres per se. I believe you have the wrong springs on the car now and although I say ts not tyres, pressures should be 24 front and rear hot.
Thick end if 600 quid for less than 8 hours work and no parts - save it. Snake oil comes cheaper than that.
On reflection, that is a lot of money, and perhaps it would be wasted on me (and I'm not half as rich as some..), as I usually only drive on the roads and not track. At least, not until I have had the engine upgraded.Thick end if 600 quid for less than 8 hours work and no parts - save it. Snake oil comes cheaper than that.
I chose this particular Nitron set because when reading the blurb, it stated that this is the popular for road and occasional track (surely the same could be said about the original factory set up)? As I know they do even stiffer versions, mainly for track (with different coloured springs)
Regarding the tyres, I think it may help slightly, but my main concern is the current distance between wheel rim and road - I want that increased slightly.
K4TRV said:
As has been said, get to Neil Garner........ex-F1 Mechanic, races his Chimaera and provides full-race support for a Mosler GT 3 - he will drive and set the car up or he'll soon be onto Nitron's who are not too far away also!! His guys are fully TV capable - a very professional team.
I would also suggest you call and get an appointment.........they are a busy Team?? Here: http://www.neilgarner.co.uk
Out of interest, your Nitrons came with a test sheet? What "clicks" did they reflect? I recently had a new set and came as 12-clicks from soft - you couldn't drive it with that set-up!! I softened to 4 rear & 6 front for roads (I use 10 rear & 12 front for Sprints & 10 front 8 rear on Hillclimbs)
Why they specified 12 from soft as delivered I have no idea, but I reckon that's your problem???
HTHs
Trev
Yes, I have the test sheet in front of me. They were built by an S. Edmonds, springs rates are 400 at front, 325 rear, with both front and rear set at 10 - but the guy who put them on at Central told me that he had adjusted them for a not too hard, not too soft ride, so I assumed they were changed. I will check tomorrow.I would also suggest you call and get an appointment.........they are a busy Team?? Here: http://www.neilgarner.co.uk
Out of interest, your Nitrons came with a test sheet? What "clicks" did they reflect? I recently had a new set and came as 12-clicks from soft - you couldn't drive it with that set-up!! I softened to 4 rear & 6 front for roads (I use 10 rear & 12 front for Sprints & 10 front 8 rear on Hillclimbs)
Why they specified 12 from soft as delivered I have no idea, but I reckon that's your problem???
HTHs
Trev
SergSC said:
chris watton said:
When you write 'Vreds', are you referring to these?;
http://www.clickontyres.co.uk/everyday-tyres/produ...
Yeshttp://www.clickontyres.co.uk/everyday-tyres/produ...
Desiato said:
Hi Chris,
I have been following this thread as our Tamora has Nitrons fitted (look the same as the ones in your pic), but they were fitted when we bough the car.
We have found them to be very good although the rear does have a tendency to ground the rear splitter when pushed hard over undulating roads. Not sure what spring rates we have although I am sure the rear springs are purple in colour. I have thought of fitting stiffer rear springs to reduce the grounding effect but didn't want to make the rear end too stiff as we only use it on the road.
I will confess to having not driven other Tamoras so cannot compare the ride quality.
Mick
Hi Mick I have been following this thread as our Tamora has Nitrons fitted (look the same as the ones in your pic), but they were fitted when we bough the car.
We have found them to be very good although the rear does have a tendency to ground the rear splitter when pushed hard over undulating roads. Not sure what spring rates we have although I am sure the rear springs are purple in colour. I have thought of fitting stiffer rear springs to reduce the grounding effect but didn't want to make the rear end too stiff as we only use it on the road.
I will confess to having not driven other Tamoras so cannot compare the ride quality.
Mick
I have driven two Tams now, both with standard shocks (although my first Tamora's ride height was set up lower than standard, IIRC), but both were a dream to drive on most road surfaces. The Nitrons are a marked difference in ride quality.
Perhaps I shall end up changing the springs to Eicach's - but I feel I shouldn't have to, as these Nitrons were sold on the premise that they're the best compromise for fast road/track, when they are quite evidently very much smooth surface/track biased. Also, what the hell are they doing to the wheels (and the rest of the chassis components) when they crash into every bump in the road!
I shall wait to see if they 'soften', but I am not holding my breath...
Pursyluv said:
Chris don't be put off by the cheapness of these tyres, they came highly recommended to me as a "mid-range" tyre, although I must admit I did end up with Toyo's at about £30 a tyre extra (fronts are Toyo too so just wanted a match).
And I know it's no consolation at the present, but I did the same with my shocks, agonised over Nitrons, in the end put Protechs on for half the price, I fitted them myself, then paid Selby TVR £100 to set up the geo, then subsequently Concept Performance another £50 to adjust the ride height, plus I've played with the settings myself to get it to what I think is good handling car, it'll take a bit of time, but they will get sorted, however £567 is a lot of money, it's actually more than my Protechs cost!
I agree, that is a lot of money (that's a front 322mm brake disk and pad upgrade price, with change - or a full brand new set of Gaz suspension!)And I know it's no consolation at the present, but I did the same with my shocks, agonised over Nitrons, in the end put Protechs on for half the price, I fitted them myself, then paid Selby TVR £100 to set up the geo, then subsequently Concept Performance another £50 to adjust the ride height, plus I've played with the settings myself to get it to what I think is good handling car, it'll take a bit of time, but they will get sorted, however £567 is a lot of money, it's actually more than my Protechs cost!
I am not too mechanically competent, I have to rely on others who know better to sort this stuff out for me (although I am sure I can adjust the suspension without problems)
I shall wait and see if things improve - no choice really and I am out of funds for now..
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