Aston Vs Jag - are we slipping back?

[yeti]

A thread about the Evora on another forum I frequent, a poster on there, well respected, he races, owns a garage, his thoughts were:

"On my forecourt now I have various Ferraris, Porsche, Jag, Aston etc and if I were to take a car for a burn it would be the Evora without a question. Ferrari's are too skittish on UK roads, Porsches patter at the front and the quicker ones are too stiff, the Aston's are rubbish, the jags are great but TC isn't right."

On another thread, same author: "Astons are pretty flaky and not great to drive, the jags are one of my favourite cars... Db9 is a good step forward (over DB7) but it's a light year behind an equivalent xkr. Don't get me wrong, the astons are lovely things, but more of an ornament than a driving experience."

I challenged him about whether he had an axe to grind, he said not and I believe him. Assuming these are genuinely his thoughts, could he be right? Have the Gaydon era cars slipped behind the equivalent and much, much cheaper Jaguars?

Last time I looked at an XKR was at an event at Kensington Olympia where Jag had a presence. From a distance, the XKR looked great, close up it was a mish-mash of parts bin kit and small failures in attention to detail - a screwed on spoiler, ugly handles, a silly aerial, poor stitching, cheap plastics. Every Aston I see looks like the hand built dream-car it is supposed to be, it looks like what it is, a car that costs half as much again.

The last Jag I drove was my 2004 XKR 4.2 cabrio, which was lovely but beaten in every way by the DB7 Vantage I replaced it with. Without the image they may or may not suffer, has the 'poor man's Aston' actually overtaken the Aston with this new iteration? We know their R&D budget is huge by comparison, but even so, the Gaydon VH platform was, I thought, without parallel at the price, before we get into carbon monocoques. The V12 is old tech, but strong and torquey, the V8 engine is pretty modern though suffers in power comparison against the SC Jags but the latest 430bhp with 7 speeds is fine for a GTs engine. Though when Jag has 520bhp for the same cash...

What see ye Astoneers? Genuinely interested and as I said, not taking into account the Jag's image, is it a better car or even drawing near? Many are saying yes. Obviously we're hugely partisan, but try and put that to one side. I'm curious and will freely admit to being a Jaguar fan, I've had 3 and will have many more in my life

[yeti]

yorkieboy said:

XK Is more reliable and cheaper to service. I prefer a XK to a DB9.

Cheaper to service I'll agree with. But more reliable? It's not like Gaydon cars have a reputation for unreliability or are Jags nigh-on perfect now? My 2004 XKR was never out of the garage, but then again nor was my DB7!

[yeti]

And chaps, I did say try to leave out comments about image or relative aspirationality of the marques!

Is the current XKR a better car than a Vantage/DB9? Does it drive, handle, steer and brake better? Is it better built and more reliable?

I know what I'd rather have because I have it, nor will any outcome affect my decision - I'm genuinely curious as to whether Jaguar have collosally upped their game or are Aston that far behind?

As Aston types we don't really expect our cars to outperform Ferraris, they have a different raison d'etre. But Jaguar are a genuine rival at 2/3 the price. We believe our cars are better, removing emotion from the equation; are they?

Edited by yeti on Saturday 4th February 17:34

[yeti]

Without naming names... Err, yes

As said, I don't believe he has an axe to grind, I'm genuinely curious as to the source of the comments.

As also mentioned above, I don't drive at 10/10ths and would be backwards in the hedge if I tried to, a modified DB9 is all I need. I couldn't exploit any more from a car. Randy can!

[yeti]

blueg33 said:

Mate of mine has an XKRS and a 2011 DB9

In his opinion the XKRS whips the DB9 as a driving machine but the quality isn't quite there.

Which car does he always drive - XKRS in his words "The Aston is too boring"

Interesting points and kind of what I was wondering. How a Jag with a supercharger can be more exciting to drive than a DB9 with adaptive damping. I suppose it's a lot more powerful if nothing else, much more so than the DBS in fact!

Just one question - if he finds the DB9 sooooo boring, why does he keep £100k sat in his garage going mouldy?

[yeti]

TDIPLC said:

Ah ok! Yes, Randy is a well respected race driver and engineer so any opinions are worthy of serious consideration.

Indeed. I just wondered why he thought Astons were rubbish. Not slightly less good than the competition, but 'rubbish'.

I guess you get to be a certain level of driving ability and maybe they don't quite stack up anymore? That was my question, are the Jags then that much better?

Molly, what was the Evo consensus after back-to-back testing?

[yeti]

Jockman said:

Yeti, it's hardly likely that a professional racer, who appears to attract divine status, would use the word 'rubbish' about Astons unless the word is being taken completely out of context. Somebody of that status I would imagine has a wider vocabulary and has access to more refined adjectives or adverbs.

I would really need to see the article before I passed comment on the professionalism involved in saying such a thing

Morning my deep fried chum, it wasn't an article, just a post on the Lotus forum we're both members of. He was actually talking about the Evora and why it doesn't sell. As per my first post, he made comments on the other cars in his garage. Aston got one word, 'rubbish'. No further clarification. On another thread talking about the new shape but older 4.2 XKR Vs DB7 Vantage he made the comment that DB7s are flaky (they are) and the DB9 was better but still light years bhind the Jaguar. That was what surprised me - that a guy with no axe to grind rated modern Astons so poorly, especially against their traditional 'budget' rival. I suppose that rivalry goes all the way back to the E-Type Vs the DB5, and back into racing with the D-Types and DBR cars. Hard to beat a Jaguar for the money and their heritage is beyond reproach.

I suppose it's like putting the 911 GT3RS against the Nissan GTR. The Nissan destroys it in every scientifically measurable way for far less money, but what would you rather have..? For me, it's the 911, for many others the GTR represents too good a car to ignore.

I hope Astons are not becoming a joke, an anachronism like they were in the Virage V8 days (I love Virages BTW and even namwd my company after it!)

[yeti]

bogie said:

the statement that "Astons are rubbish" doesnt really hold up much in any context

rubbish for shopping? rubbish for track driving? rubbish for going on holiday in ?

rubbish ...mmm...in the snow perhaps ?

You might have read the thread Mark! He was syaing what he'd jump in for a quick, enjoyable blast for the sake of it. That he might choose the Evora makes sense, it serves no purpose other than to be that old cliche, 'the driver's car'; it was preferring the Jag over Aston thing that surprised me.

I think Aston's are every inch the driver's car but then I have converted mine into something more akin to that. I remember thinking it was too quiet and too smooth when I bought it. Maybe that's it.

[yeti]

angularocelot said:

lot's of people work their arses off everyday and can hardly afford busfare.
we're all in the race but some people get a massive headstart.

Some do, some don't. I had no headstart with regard to money connections, many others on here also didn't. Nothing at all except my own work ethic and a reasonably functional brain. If you call the abilty to work hard, work smart and listen to people smarted than me a headstart, then that's a different story

[yeti]

Zod said:

If you work a bit harder, you might be able to afford a decent car.

Not funny

The Jag guys have come on with opinions and that was what the thread was asking for!

They are coming across a little chip-on-the-shouldery however with claims AM owmers must have had headstarts...

[yeti]

angularocelot said:

lol! jaguar has a few cars cooler than anything astom martin ever made.

Like what? Genuine question! I'd say historically the brands are on a par. The Jags arejust generally more affordable and were made in greater numbers.

Coolest Jag I can think of is the XKSS and I would put the DB4GT or the Zagato against that all day. However I qualify that with the caveat that I am hoping to have an XKSS replica built this year

E-Type? DB5.

D-Type? DBR1

XK120? DB1

Et cetera.

[yeti]

cml said:

Now, where did I put my sheepskin coat? Oh yes, there it is, under your tweed jacket.

Nicely done

Original post was by me, and not supposed to be inflammatory. I didn't say the cars were rubbish, an impartial guy who ownes a prestige garage, races and regularly drives Ferrari, Porsche, Lambo and Jag claimed it was.

I genuinely wondered how badly AM was slipping in every way compared to Jag. Not just statistics, but actual drivability and perhaps desirability. I would like Aston be be more than a brand, I'd that them to be a well-respected motoring marque. But we haven't moved since 2004 really, the DB9 and VH platform was such a jump from the DB7 that laurels could be rested upon and they were. Jag got very lucky with a TATA buyout, they genuinely love the brand and want to make it world class. They're succeeding. I hope Aston don't go back to being little more than a cottage industry making very quaint, but still very desirable cars based on branding.

I also hope the Chinese don't get Aston, but then I'd have said the same about the Indians getting Jaguar and look how that's gone!

[yeti]

EpsomJames said:

Lewis, I also read that thread and TBH I think it was a throw away comment, not really aimed at the marque so I don't think you should read too much into it.

I agree it was a throw away comment, meant without particular malice - u but I do take minor offence as curiosly I find that if you insult Aston, you insult me! Never had that with any other brand, people have laughed at my Marcos ad Lotus for years

But that the Aston Vs Jag thread posted up by the French chappie that he also commented on got me thing, that was all. He was explicit that the DB9 was light years behind the Jaguar. I wondered if there was grain of truth. Nothing to do with desirability or who went to the best school (?), just wondered had the Jag become a better car than a VH platform Aston due to a shedload of Indian R&D money?

[yeti]

SLacKer said:

has the XKR-S up against the Vantage S and this can be read online .

I can only read the first page of it?

With the greatest of respect to the Jaguar, it looks absurd next to the Aston, too much bodykit. I guess its appeal is to the GTR crowd? The Aston looks suave and sophisticated, but I might even say a little dated next to it...

Good thing about Jags was always bang for buck. At 100 grand, that's gone. Some serious slightly used exotica is about for that money and I think it's a space Aston is supposed to occupy with Ferrari and Lamborghini.

Jaguar sits with Porsche and Maserati IMHO, no bad place to be.

Where will the new Lotus Esprit sit I wonder..?

[yeti]

michael gould said:

hold their knife's like a pen

Knives.

Glass houses Michael

[yeti]

I think you can probably guess why this is back to life... The long-awaited F-Type.

Is it going to steal sales from the Vantage? Top of the range has an 8 speed auto, 495bhp, strict 2 seats, and is 80 grand plus toys. And the V6 with 340bhp is less than 60 grand for a thoroughly modern motor car, I very much doubt a second hand Vantage would comprehensively outrun it for the same money.

So the Vantage now has a cheaper rival in the F-Type and the DB9 has a MUCH cheaper rival in the XKR - which is has to be said, is long in the tooth now.

The DB9 has upped it's game with the most recent incarnation and actually isn't overpriced for what it is. Jag seem to have added every piece of bling they have to bump the XKR-S's price beyond 100k, rarified territory for Jaguar. I think the new DB9 is ahead of the XKR-S, even putting pricing to one side.

I don't think the Vantage is ahead of the F-Tyope though, not any more. When is the new Vantage due..? If it were my choice, I would have the Aston because I love Astons, but if you had no interest in either brand, I wonder how many will choose the F-Type? It's just so... new!

Comparing the XKR to the Vantage is hard as you effectively get a DB9-class car for Vantage money. But where does the F-Type fit in? It is, in it's top spec, on paper, better than the Vantage or the aging XKR.

And the raison d'etre of the this thread was always to try and ignore the perceived snob value that Aston has versus Jaguar. The question is still; do they build better cars now?

[yeti]

There is only one reason I had an XKR and it's the same as above

But we're now in a world where the top spec F-Type costs the same as a Vantage S, give or take. One is a modern, 8 speed, high tech, 495bhp, all the toys, has the heritage of the E-Type to trade on and is a beauty to behold.

The other is an Aston Martin.

Is it enough? If it was my 85 grand and I HAD to have a new car, I'm not sure. My DB9 cost me 50k and is worth a little less perhaps. There is nothing I'd swap it for at double that price. But in NEW car world... :scratchin:

[yeti]

Neilc123 said:

As someone who has driven both as well I do find the comment that it is not an Aston as remarkable. It is basically saying to me that the brand is more important than the substance and I fear Aston are counting on that at the moment. I fear if people actually used their brains more than their heart fewer Astons would be sold as comparing the cars I think the Jaguar is the better engineered car.

Very well said - and what I started this debate for :scratchin:

Interestingly, the next 2 cars I by will be from Land Rover and Jaguar. OK, a 3 grand Freelander and a Series 1 E-Type will not be swelling TATA's coffers, but Jaguar are a creditable brand and I have aspired to an E-Type all my life. I wonder if their marketing machine can make people want the F-Type in the same way..?

[yeti]

Lunablack said:

I wonder if Mercedes are concerned about their image

Of course they are. That's why they've just hired Hamilton (which I am very sad about) and by proxy, his popstar girlfriend. A lot of aspirational and monied African Americans to sell cars to on the back of that.

[yeti]

Lunablack said:

George H said:

Bentley are hardly known as the exclusive gentleman's express they once were are they? They're now known as footballers cars.....

You do talk some rubbish at times George.....how many footballers do you think actually own a Bentley???

100% with George on this one - the Conti GT is known as a 'footballers car', whether many of them own them or not, that is the image they are stuck with. Just like Maserati are unreliable (they aren't), Jaguars are for old people (not necessarily), Alfas rust (not any more) and bankers drive Porsches (no more than anyone else). You get stuck with an image.

Astons image is becoming style over substance. There is a saying that Aston nere built a 'good' car until the DB9. Is it possible that they may never build another...