DB9, problem with oiled up Air Filters

[MaverickAM9]

Hello, I email to ask if you can help me with some advice.

I have a 2005 DB9 Coupe with 40k on the clock. I have issues with the airfilters, they get oily and need replacing every 10 – 12 weeks, they could go a bit longer, but after 10 weeks they look like this



New one on the left, 10 week old on the right. Both sides of the engine’s airfilters are oiled the same, this is what is confusing, as if one side of the engine was oiled and one clear, then I could look at the one side. But both sides are EQUALLY oiled.

The exhaust blows clear, no puffs on start up, revving, driving etc. Although inside the exhaust pipe there is clean perfect black dust / smoke particles. Although this might be a Red Herring as I changed the rear exhaust box and got rid of those pesty silencers (it sounds nice now), so the dust particles cannot get caught in any muffler.

The oil is trickling down the air intakes, and fowling the filters. The car uses about a litre of oil every couple of months, which I am told is not bad, especially as I drive about 1000 miles a month. There are no oil leaks.

The engine is a bit noisy and I’m looking at the lifters, but I don’t want this to be another Red Herring.

What just adds to the confusion is that the car drives like a dream, with really really oily filters the engine, “hunts”, at tickover, other than that it drives great. When I change the Airfilters for new ones, the car drives like a dream. There is no loss of power, no misfire, no overrun. It drives brilliantly WITH oily filters, when they are clean she runs likes a turbine.

My question is, should my airfilters be like this? Is it a design fault? Am I driving a supercar like a daily hatchback and as such should I accept this level of maintenance?

Any suggestions?

Thanks

[MaverickAM9]

Hello Boys, wow, thanks, I'll get on to this today.

Just for clarification I took the air filters off myself, the first one took about 3 hours because I didn't have a clue and my manual was on a computer in the office. The second filter took about 20 minutes.

Having stripped the whole thing down looking for where the oil was coming from (and not finding it), I can confirm that the air is sucked (or pushed in) through either side of the main front grill, the air goes down a plastic tube and hits the outside of the paper airfilter, the air is sucked through the filter and up into the engine.

Originally I though that my filters were oiling up from the outside-in. But now I can see (and I took long enough to take it all apart), the oil is coming from the engine down the air intakes and oiling up the filters from the inside-out. When I took the filter housing out, the dirty air coming from the atmostphere was bone dry and only dust was in the plastic intake.

All your feedback is fantastic. Thanks, and I can understand why Dealers don't clear things out when they service cars, why should they...! I could see the best part of a £1,000.00 written all over this problem If I didn't have a forum like this and the, "ummph", to take the dam thing apart.

Does the above information change any info given ........

Thanks again

[MaverickAM9]

Swagman said:

I'll set myself a weekly reminder on the phone to 'CHECK THE OIL'...

Yes, Yes, Yes. I read a lot of forum chat a while back about 9's running low on oil, so I check mine every Friday. EVERY Friday. It has paid off because I have never been low. One time I didn't check it for a few weeks (work committments) and OMG, it was at the "Min", level of the dipstick. Ahhhhhh.

I put 1.5 litres in and never missed a Friday since.

Info on this forum is wicked, thanks guys. I initially thought that I'd buy a, "thingy", and sort the problem. Now I'm going to print the whole thing off and talk to my mechanic mate.

Question;

Do I REALLY need the paper gasket set for the air-manifolds, they are about £150.00 and why can't we use the old ones, on my car they are only about 6 months old. If they were a few years old I'd understand. Please please please can someone tell me I don't need to change them ..........

[MaverickAM9]

Bugger.

OK, I'll order and change them. Shall I change the Sparkplugs at the same time?

[MaverickAM9]

Interesting guys,

I like the bypass idea, and I think that I understand the pro's and con's. Do you need a dump tank, or if it's merely vapour, can't the pipe discharge out onto the floor. Before people castigate me for pouring oil onto the road. As I see it, it is vapour and bearing in mind that petrol is merely more refined oil and we burn and discharge all the fuel in our tank, then the amount of oil vapour is so small as to be negligable.

I appreciate that I can't just take off the valves because the oil vapour would just pitch on the engine and so on .......

Can't I just discharge onto the floor....?

[MaverickAM9]

Hello F 1 NDW,

I went on your profile and saw a photo of your car. Absolutely wicked.....................

I love my 9, vantages are great, but the Vanquish .......... and in your colour ...........

I understand what you mean about people never lifting the bonnet. Personally, I would not think twice about dropping the engine out, i'd just need help. My theory is, "how hard can it be". I've had the car a while and to be honest I'm thinking of starting some trackdays with the car (bonkers I may be), but I do need to know how the car works. So to strip out the airfilters was right up my alley. To resolve a problem with an alternative method is also right up my alley.

I think you are right, if someone never lifts the bonnet, then to fit an alternative system that will need maintainance is perhaps not the best idea. Astons have the dubious honour of being owned by a mixture of people. Some that push them into a garage to be showed off at the Board of Directors car park, others (as you say) never lift the bonnet. You have me, that uses the car as my daily car, then you have 3200GT who seems to have worked with people that developed the dam things. Quite a variety ......

So I think you are both right, F1 because people who don't lift bonnets should'nt even be on this forum, other than to look for get-together-Rallys, and 3200GT because an alternative for people who are genuinely interested in engine development should always be explored.

You're both right for different reasons.

[MaverickAM9]

Hello 3200GT,

I went on your profile as well. I must ask the question, why oh why would you push your AM out of the garage for the Maser ?

Your Maser is lovely, please do not get me wrong, it's beautiful, it's a wonderful sports car (nice colour too). But you pushed the 9 out of the garage for it ?

[MaverickV12]

Having looked at this problem for long enough I thought I would address the issue, so I bought these bits and pieces



Apparently, the above pieces are the oil seperators. I thought that I would do the job as AM designed and not do the dump tank, but please read on first. I then had to get to the pieces in the engine so I took off the engine cover



As you can see the engine cover is removed as the cross member and the small strut to the side, this was the easy piece, the rest So i had to then take these off



This meant removing the injectors and the fuel rails, don't turn the ignition on like I did when the fuel pump will prime the injectors ...... this will show the main oil seperators, there are 2 of them on the top of the engine. As you can see the air intakes are all oily, especially the passenger side, so the passenger side appears worse than the driver.Picture below ....



Right now we have a problem, I need to take out the oil seperators. BUT THEY WONT COME OUT. No no no no, they won't come out, and the reason is that the Cylinder head HAS to come off ........ ahhhhhh, that is a bridge too far, if we mess with the timing chains, that is a engine out job. I think that this is why they use a dump tank, otherwise engine out .........

There are other oil seperators, which I will try and locate and change today, but if unsuccesful, then its defo a dunk tank, but only because the head has to come off.

Is that why they use a dump tank, can someone advise .......?

When taken apart, the oil in the intake was everywhere, but the passenger side worse, it is running down to the airfilters and also being burnt a lot as well, when the huge intakes were on their end, the oil started to run out, bugger.

I had a bit of a day, it was very frustrating.

Out of interest the airintake gaskets were very substantial pieces of kit, there was no way that I would change them as they are £180.00 and they were in perfect condition, having said that they were changed only 6 months ago.

I defo need some dump tank advice if anyone can point out where it goes etc. But this is on the basis that I will try and free the blockage first, then only go for the dump tank, if I cant fix or find it. ........

[MaverickV12]

3200gt said:

Mav, Been there and done that, that's why I went the dump tank route. If you want to have a chat through it then I have PH mailed my mobile number to you.

3200GT, sorry I did not get back to you today, work got in the way and taking the camshaft cover off was a bugger I am very interested in circumnavigating the oil seperator, I can see that the 2 breatherpipes from the camshaft cover vent into the front of the huge inlet manifold. I am assumming that we disconnect these, seal off the manifold vent intake and then redirect the pipe. The pipe comes from the rear to the front and into the manifold.

So I'm thinking that I trace the pipe back to the source and redirect the pipe.

A question .... does not the manifold (whilst sucking in air) create a vacuum that pulls oil through the tube?

If I disconnect the pipe. There will be no vacuum, will the oil still be, "pushed", not, "sucked", along the pipe?

3200GT, if its ok, can I give you a call tomorrow morning, as I don't have any rubber pipes or heat shielding, and I don't know where to re-route the pipes. I could try some trial and error, but I don't want to re-invent the wheel, especially if you have already done it. Photos would be great if you have any ........

[MaverickV12]

Lunablack said:

Could you not place new oil separators in a new more accessible position within the engine bay, and re-pipe to them...

And just leave the originals where they are...??

I guess in theory you could, but in practice there is such little room I don't know where they would go. The originals cannot be moved (unless the head is removed) so they suck up the oil and the pipes would have to go to another oil seperator, but I don't know how big they are and where they would be placed. If you look at the other tiny valves that came in the pack, they are in the depths of behind the engine, small hands or not, you'd have to have hands like a 2 year old to get there. Even then I don't see how you would connect to them.

So you have the main 2 seperators that cannot be moved, then you have 2 more seperator valves that just cannot be accessed. Believe me, I have tried. Unless the engine is out, I feel that the only viable option is to discharge the oil into a tank etc.

I even considered cleaning out the seperators insitu, but the problem is, the petrol or turps, would then go into the engine .....

Personally I feel the only option is - bypass and discharge.

......... unless anyone else has any ideas ............ boy oh boy, I'm willing to listen

[MaverickV12]

SS972 said:

Hi,been thinking about fitting separators to my 9 and found those: as ideal as could be nicely located,one per bank on the chassis rail below the brake master cylinder.Had a long discussion with 3200GT about it,he is very helpfull.

Hello Sebastian, nice to have our European Cousins interested in our marque ....

I looked at the eBay part, I can see how it would fit in the car, how would you empty it? I hope to phone 3200GT tomorrow and assumming he is available to talk, then I can catch up about this idea. A worst case scenario would be to discharge the pipe through the engine bay and onto the ground, its oil vapour so in theory it would do that, but that is certainly not an option if anything else can be done.

How would you empty the dump tank?

[MaverickV12]

drofnavi said:

A catch tank between the crankcase vent and the inlet manifold is the only way to stop this. There are several bolt on kits on the market for these engines. The tank simply needs to be emptied periodically. I really dont see why this wouldn't be an acceptable solution with a properly designed system.

Thanks for your interest. Do you know the layout of the V12? if so, I'm all ears about where a dump tank would go, any photos?

You see the eBay link above, is that a good item, in your opinion? Would you use it?

Thanks

[MaverickV12]

SS972 said:

Hi,
been thinking about fitting separators to my 9 and found those:

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Universal-Aluminium-silv...

as ideal as could be nicely located,one per bank on the chassis rail below the brake master cylinder.Had a long discussion with 3200GT about it,he is very helpfull.

Was giving this some consideration last night and looked on eBay etc. I didn't know but there is all manner of these oil catch tanks, but the above ones - these seemed nice and cost effective, what I am concerned about is will they fit and whilst eBay stuff can be returned, I've found their returns policy less than robust. Being a bit of a snob, I also ordered some steel braided fuel tube and some steel zip ties, this is not because of any special Aston reason, its because it would look nice

Thinking of where they would go and then I read through 3200GT stuff again, and he put his inside the front wings (I am correct about that - yes?) Again, I don't want to reinvent the wheel, I'll have a look on Monday and see where the tanks can go. I'd love them next to the engine - on show, but I have a feeling that there is no room and hence 3200GT put them in the wings.

I'll look Monday, but mean while I'd like to hear what others think?

[MaverickV12]

3200GT has pointed out something that I may have overlooked to informed you PH'ers about. He said that one side of the engine (oiling up) was the problem and not the other. For me this is also correct. Both sides went wrong, if you flip a few pages / postings you will see a direct photo of the exposed intakes into the engine, you will see they are both oily inside. However, the passenger (UK) side is worse than the drivers side. Quite a lot worse. So I'm going to sort out both sides of the intakes / oil issues, for me they both need it. But the passenger side needs it more than the drivers side.

Turning to where I can put the tank, I took some photos of the engine bay, whilst you guys have plenty of views of the engine (because you got the engine), I took the photos because the big air intakes are removed.



Above is the passenger side by the headlight, again not much room there.



This was one of the hopeful possibles, this space is obvioulsy the drivers (UK) side by the driver, but when I places the Air Manifold back in place, it quickly reminded me there was no room there.



Passenger side, by the passenger, again a little room, but right by the fuse box. Again place the manifold back in place and access becomes very limited.



This also shows some space, but again with the manifolds in place, its just not possible.

Ahh Haa .... says I ...... I know where there is piles of space ......



Having taken off the engine cover, there is a stack of space between the radiator and the grill. But no ...... anything would show A LOT through the grill, also its hard to get a fixing anywhere and whilst one, "could", go in there, I don't think it would look very professional at all.

So, 3200GT, it looks like its in the wheel arch spaces then, which was where you had yours a while ago.

This is why I think these forums are important, its eliviates people having to reinvent the wheel .....

[MaverickV12]

SS972 said:

my idea was to fit L shaped brackets using the bolt that you can see on the chassis rail under the brake master cylinder (photo 2), the same bolt is present on the opposite side, and have the separator bolted to this bracket making it easy to undo to drain.

I think I can see your theory, is it the same bolt that the bottom of the fuse board is held in with. From the photos without the Manifolds in, then there is plenty of space, with them back in, its tight. But I'm looking at the engine again tomorrow and so will look at the issue again.

I don't just want to put a few bits-and-bobs in the engine and make it work, if I'm going to do it, I'd like it to look as professional as possible.

SS972, May I ask why you are doing the same? Do you have the oily airfilters or for another reason?

[MaverickV12]

Whilst the car is in heated garage, and waiting for Lashes, Rockers, Braided fuel lines and other bits and bob, I thought I'd change the air filters, bearing in mind that they are some 3 months old now. I got this ........



Obvioulsy that is old - v - new ....

Lashes and Rockers arrived now, so will look at putting it all back together now.

[MaverickV12]

Opps forgot to include this photo, out of interest, inside it looks like this .....



That would make sense if the oil is running down the inside of the air intake.

[MaverickV12]

Oiled up both sides, quite equal actually. Did think about the K&N's, but I would rather keep changing them, than wonder when the K&N would need cleaning. Because I listen to the engine and if it so much as coughs, I know it, I know when they are in need of replacing, also once I let them go for about 6 month and found that the engine was, "hunting", as the ECU would rev the engine when it felt it was about to stall. I was slow on the uptake then. Hopefully with the venting of the oil recirculation, it should solve the problem anyway.

[MaverickV12]

drofnavi said:

What do you think of my suggestion for mounting the catch tank inside the wheel arch.

I'm going to go with it. To be honest I can't see a better place for it to go. I changed the exhaust, so I have loads of space where the old baffle used to go, the problem is, taking in account going around corners etc, it about 5 metre to the tank, I think that is too far, the oil vapour will cool, condense and then block. But that's only me talking out of my ..... so I could be completely wrong. I think 5 metre is too far to go. Then there is the fixing problems. So, yes, the wheel arch looks good. Probably go with one in each arch, only because I don't want to be emptying it every 5 minutes. This way, they can fill up and I'll look every 3 months.

[MaverickV12]

Hello again ..... after working on the rest of the engine I am now looking at trying to sort this matter out. I have looked at the 2 throttle bodies and there are 2 airintake pipes on the passenger side and 3 on the drivers side, I have put these photos on this thread to show them ....



The above photo shows the passenger side throttle valve, there is clearly the pipe coming from the centre of the engine.



The above photo shows the same throttle, but from the side, I have pointed a screw driver at the other pipe. Does this pipe also need to be diverted?



The above photo shows the drivers side throttle, there is again the pipe coming from the centre of the V12, but you can also see a braided black thicker pipe coming from the other side, this comes from a pipe from the back of the engine.



The above photo shows the drivers throttle and a third (3rd) pipe coming in from below, I have pointed a screw driver at the pipe in question.

My question is, do I need to divert all 5 pipes to the catch tanks? Or just the top 2? Where are the other 3 coming from? Why is there 2 on one side and 3 on the other?

Thanks ........