ASM2 Gearbox Failure

[mikey k]

As many of you know Bamford Rose have been beavering away on my S to finish Johnny 550 for Rockingham
This week they started on adding the oil cooling radiator circuit to the ASM2 box that was descoped by teh factory in the upgrade from ASM1 (and then reinstated on ASM3 as well as now being offered as an option on ASM2)
I asked them to do this as a precaution, knowing the effect excess heat can have on gearboxes and knowing it was going to need to cope with the extra power/torque. This is a common fitment on the race cars.
So on splitting the gearbox to fit the hoses they found debris on the magnetic plug, debris in the bottom of the casing and very dark oil which showed signs of overheating. On striping it further it got worse!

Significant wear marks on the main pinion gear


IMG_0271 by mikey k V8VR, on Flickr

Scoring to ALL the rollers of the main bearing


IMG_0272 by mikey k V8VR, on Flickr

and scuff marks to the bearing housing


IMG_0274 by mikey k V8VR, on Flickr

Now my S has always had a diff whine from cold which I dismissed as just cold oil it alos got worse in the winter.
The car has done 13k miles in just over 12 months, never been tracked, never been launched, never been driven by Cockers, always properly warmed up and driven with mechanical sympathy.
In my experience of high power gearboxes this has occurred progressively.
The gearbox has only been used for 100 miles on the new engine to run it in a low revs so I'm certain it is not the engine.
Ironically had I not asked for the extra cooling BR would not have spotted this before it became a major failure and knowing my luck that would have been outside the 3 year warranty in the middle of a Eurohoon

So I have emailed the pictures along with my perspective and expectations to my contact at Gaydon. The reply promptly came back that as a sealed unit that has now been opened they could not entertain any warranty, this was reiterated in by a phone call shortly afterwards. Not too surprised at that response though disappointed they didn't even discuss it with the technical team or want to see the damage for themselves.
I know of 3 other ASM2 gearboxes that have suffered similar damage with in months, this has all the makings of the throttle pedal debacle
Bamford Rose will be rebuilding the gearbox to a higher standard and taking measures to prevent this happening again.
For those of you with ASM2 gearboxes I would suggest you get the oil and magnetic plug checked for debris if you have any concerns.
Ironically one of the reasons I sold my last roadster and ordered a brand new S was to get away from the numerous quality issues the first one had. It has turned out the replacement is far worse!
Thankfully it seems I can rely on BR to spot any issues early and resolve them at reasonable cost.
I was keen on ordering a V12VS roadster when they are released, I am now 110% certain that will not happen.
I will persevere with the my S but there is no way I am going to support production of such poor quality by replacing another car with another "throw of the dice"
AML you really do need to sort your QC and consider its impact on future sales.

[mikey k]

Ikebaddog said:

Did BR not inform you that this would invalidate your warranty?

They did, I took the risk not expecting it to already be on its way out at 13k miles before they got hold of it
I would not expect a gearbox to start failing at such low mileage, though I do know of at least 3 others that have gone at even lower mileage.

[mikey k]

FrankieV8VSP10 said:

mikey k said:

The gearbox has only been used for 100 miles on the new engine to run it in a low revs so I'm certain it is not the engine.

You have had to have a new engine as well? Blimey engine and gearbox failure on a relatively young car...that's really bad! Makes me not want to buy an Aston!

I chose to upgrade the original engine, there was no failure on it

[mikey k]

Neil1300r said:

Mickey can only sympathy.

Aston Martin really let themselves down both on product quality and customer service. Google Aston Martin asm2 and this thread is the first thing to pop up. That has the potential to cause them all sorts of complaints in the future

[mikey k]

peterr96 said:

That's really crap Mikey. I thought these graziano gearboxes were supposed to be fairly bomb proof. Can it really be a function of ASM that has caused premature failure.
In terms of the accusation of cost cutting, given the 'box is a bought in unit that hardly seems likely does it?

They seem to be in the races, only being rebuilt when the engine is rebuilt, but then they retain the external oil cooler

[mikey k]

MollyGTi said:

peterr96 said:

In terms of the accusation of cost cutting, given the 'box is a bought in unit that hardly seems likely does it?

ASM1 had a cooler matrix but ASM2 did not but they have seen that it is a necessary feature and reintroduced it for ASM3

I understand it is also now being offered as an option on ASM2

[mikey k]

SFO said:

did you consider sending the metal fragments and dirty oil to AM for their opinion/advice before opening the gear box?

It was offered in the first communication to Gaydon, they didn't take it up as they buy the box as a sealed unit from Graziano.
I expect they have a back to back warranty on them with Graziano so take no risk or responsibility.
A bit short sighted IMHO.

[mikey k]

tonyhall38 said:

but during testing of the engine how much stress was put onto the gearbox....could this have weakened it in some way?....I only ask because the car from Mikey's trips and documented pictures on here seem to show no problems with the gearbox.....up to a certain point.....

The box had always had a whine from cold, the magnetic plug was never checked when it was mentioned to the dealers so early sign were not detected.
I did also report poor rev matching between gears to the dealer at 6 months old again "nothing was found"
At 13k miles it was delivered to BR for the project to start, who noticed some noise from the rear end (possibly this fault?)
The 5.0 GT4 engine was fitted and it then did 100 miles at low revs (giving 30 mpg!) to run in and test the engine, it has barely been used since then.
As John Ryan says there was probably a material defect from new that went undetected and I suspect developed in to what you see through lack of cooling.

[mikey k]

FrankieV8VSP10 said:

Let me get this straight and confront the elephant in the room.

You buy a perfectly good V8VRS but are not happy with the performance so you take it so some independent "specialist" to upgrade and tweak the engine for more power/torque? Why? If you wanted more just buy a V12V! Presumably the car is in warranty? Why would you risk invalidating it?

That work is carried out and you drive the car sedately for 100 miles? Yeah of course you did! The first thing most people would do is say right let's see what difference that made...VROOMMMM

Not happy with the engine work you want more tweaks and upgrades. At that point you find the dark oil and the debris on the magnetic plug? I can imagine what you thought then GULP!

The decision to split the gearbox was absolutely epic! Now you are trying to say AM is at fault for buying substandard gearboxes due to cost restrictions? That really does take the biscuit! I'm not surprised they told you where to go!

Lessons for me here are:

Buy an Aston that I am happy with and don't have to upgrade/tweak
Don't use a so called specialist independent to do any work on my Aston
Only have work done on my P&J by AMW

I feel sorry you pal but I do feel if you had left things well alone and not gone for a few extra BHP/torques then the bill would be at AM's door not yours! That's assuming the gearboxes are faulty, which I very much doubt and not caused by your/BR's tinkering.

Overriding question is WHY?

You probably need to read the Johnny 550 thread and understand the history of the cars "issues"
My "perfectly good" S was far from it right out the box
My Aston MUST be a roadster, MUST have light weight seats and MUST have an ASM gearbox, they do not make this car (yet)
I did consider a V12VR manual and drove a couple, I could not get on with the light weight seats and 6MT combination nor did I want to spend another £80k
I came from a far more powerful roadster and miss its performance
BR's 5.0GT4 was the lowest risk way forward.

The car is in AM warranty and BR have agreed to warranty anything failing as a consequence of their work (this failure is not in that scope)
I didn't do the 100 miles, BR did it to Fords durability procedure employed by Aston Martin
The "other tweaks and upgrades" are all part of the project to compliment the 5.0GT4 engine (reinstate gearbox cooler add race drive shafts etc)
There wasn't an "epic decision" to split the gearbox it was always going to happen as it was required to retrofit the oil pump and hoses deleted by the factory.

You have your opinion and are welcome to the "lessons" from my experience, after all that is what these forums are for
They simply differ to mine

[mikey k]

john ryan said:

The gear is plainly the final drive pinion, not one of the change speed gears. In other words it is a rear axle gear, though part of the transaxle. This kind of gear is usually very capable of transmitting more torque and power without trouble. It is certainly not the weakest part of the transmission. It would have been the cause of the whine, but most likely not anything to do with gear changing - unless some debris had damaged the ASM selection kit.

it is indeed the pinion from the final drive and as you say has proven itself with much higher power and torque outputs (IIRC is it the basis of the 1-77 box)

Edited by mikey k on Friday 7th March 21:31

[mikey k]

Ikebaddog said:

Why did BR not insist that you pressed AM on the noise issue?

They initially diagnosed a rear wheel bearing which I agreed to pay the parts cost for as the drive shafts are coming out any way
I'd also like to point out BR have offered to rebuild the gearbox at parts only cost to me which I feel is a great gesture of good will.

[mikey k]

FrankieV8VSP10 said:

Mikey, I do hope you get your car to were you need it to be. It was not my intention to ridicule you, simply to point out that with, in my eyes a perfect car why change it and risk problems.

As a virgin Aston owner your post simply confirms to me that I won't tweak it and only let AMW work on it.

Hope it all works out for you fella.

Thanks you
It was not quite my "prefect" car and I knew that from day one, as I said they don't make my perfect Aston (yet)

[mikey k]

GlynV8 said:

Looking at the pictures it looks like a material failure on the final drive in the gearbox and this is not a part one would expect to wear in that way.
I am not surprised by the response from AM on this though. However, like you say it is not the only AMS2 gearbox issue at low mileage that is known about. Unfortunately for those who like to keep there car standard and don't want to do any modifications to it and would rather have it serviced by the junior technician at their local multi franchise dealer rather than use a specialist (who actually understands the engineering of the cars) may also be unlucky and face an expensive repair bill when their car falls outside of warranty.
Certainly there are a couple of nonsense posts above.
For those who think that it is the extra performance of the engine that killed the gearbox because it was taken beyond it's design spec, other than the addition of an oil cooler (which is what Mikey was having done), can they tell me how this V8VS gearbox differs from that in the higher power and higher torque V12VS?

I was not surprised at AM's response just dissapointed
The first week I had my car (Nov 2011) I had to take it to Wilmslow to sort some problems, there was another S on the ramps having a replacement gearbox fitted, I also know RobGT's Pearl had an new ASM2 box weeks in to ownership.
ASM3 is ASM2 WITH the cooler and slight different ratio's
I'm pragmatic about this, nothing ventured nothing gained, it has simply reinforced my feelings about customer support and QC
I will work with BR to get Johny to a level I'm happy with rather than wait for the V12VS roadster.

[mikey k]

tonyhall38 said:

BR are a very capable outfit.....I'm sure all will be well......Mikey does this mean no hand over at Rockingham....with all this good weather coming....or so I'm told.....

Depends on Italians actually doing something
We are still aiming for it.

[mikey k]

SFO said:

if I am understanding this correctly, normal use of ASM2 may cause the box to over heat and may result in the broken bits here.

assuming that is so, is this a disaster waiting to happen to all other ASM2 cars out there?

or is OP just unlucky?

That's the million dollar question!
IMHO there will be more to come

[mikey k]

FrankieV8VSP10 said:

I have just learned it...let AMW do all the work and avoid independents...simples!

Not quite that simple when BR have supplied engines and gearboxes for EU GT4 winners Rhesus, Nicholas Mee's UKGT4 winning car (who are AM approved ironically ) and Mathols 2012 Global MA Challenge winning car

[mikey k]

DB9VolanteDriver said:

You'd be better to call this a rear diff failure rather than continuing to call it a box failure. Therefore this is not likely attributed to the lack of gearbox cooling but rather a misassembled/misadjusted pinion/ring

The box and diff are in the same casing and share the same cooling
They are one item provided by Graziano
And I agree it was probably a manufacturing defect, however there are sign of overheating which will only accelerate the problem

[mikey k]

The initial part of the project took Johhny from 420 to 494 for around 100 miles with no prolonged high speed running (worst case to heat diff).
Lance (V12V) has done a fair few thousand miles at the hands of Cockers on the same pinion but at 570BHP with no problems.
It is also a common part in the race boxes, I asked Mike about failures on those. BR are finding about 3 in 10 race gearbox refreshes they perform needs a new pinion due to the same failure as Johnny. There is no rhyme or reason to this and the consensus is parts imperfections. The condition is accelerated by the fact the oil pump, pipe and cooler matrix was replaced by just having cooling fins on ASM2.

[mikey k]

MollyGTi said:

woolders said:

Frankie did leap in with both feet first, however, since he only joined in February this year, he probably hasn't read about the extraordinary time and care being taken over the entire project. Nothing is being rushed and Mikey has been very modest in not over publicising this. It would be an interesting read for Frankie and would give him an insight into the world of indies other than AMWS.

Details here

http://www.pistonheads.com/gassing/topic.asp?h=0&a...

Thanks Molly
Here's the orginal purchase thread as well

http://www.pistonheads.com/gassing/topic.asp?h=0&a...

[mikey k]

FrankieV8VSP10 said:

But sometimes a simple perspective on don't mess with perfection is required. For me my new SP10 is pure perfection, however those that have owned Astons for some time may say different and laugh at my naivety.
Apologies for any offence my Rioja hazed posts caused.

I'm still working on "my" perfection
And thank you

Edited by mikey k on Saturday 8th March 20:28