Worst fears realized
Discussion
If this is true, Aston and AMG are shameful liars, and everything I've been worried about is happening. I'll have ZERO interest in an "Aston" that is powered by a retuned off-the-shelf AMG engine. When they announced the AMG deal, they clearly stated the engines would be "bespoke" for Aston Martin. NOTHING about this is bespoke. A massive, massive shame. I'm sure Benz platforms are next...
http://www.autocar.co.uk/car-news/new-cars/aston-m...
http://www.autocar.co.uk/car-news/new-cars/aston-m...
V8V Pete said:
Not sure it's that different from the Jaguar engine in your V8V. When does bespoke become bespoke?
Seriously??? I'm sure. The "Jaguar engine" in my V8 has its own bespoke (ready for the list?) block, bore, stroke, crank, bearings, rods, pistons, rings, heads, cams, valves, etc. The result is a different engine. That's bespoke enough for me. An off-the-shelf AMG (or anyone else's) engine that's been merely chipped and has a different exhaust is NOT bespoke in ANY way. Grant,
I'm not suggesting for a minute that we need, or could even dream of, another clean sheet Tadek Marek-like line of engines. However, the notion that the only option is just dropping an off-the-shelf engine into Astons is just not true. They're obviously not in good shape financially, but the current situation is nothing like the early '90s when they sold something like 42 cars in '93. When this AMG deal was announced, they CLEARLY stated it would result in Aston and AMG designing "bespoke" (their word) engines for Aston Martin. This is NOTHING like that. It's merely the cheapest, most expedient way, and that bodes very badly for what lies further ahead. It's a shameful way to treat Aston Martin, and it's a very slippery slope.
It amazes me that you lot would seemingly be happy with an "Aston" that is just a Benz with different body panels, as long as it also sounded "like an Aston" and said Aston Martin on the badge. I'm sure that's what lies ahead. One significant reason I bought an Aston rather than a Bentley Conti is because my Aston is an Aston, whereas the Bentley has a VW engine and platform. ZERO interest to me. To be clear, it's not about badge snobbery for me -- I wouldn't want an "Aston" that is a rebadged Ferrari either.
Why not a Corvette engine dropped in an Aston? They sound great, don't weigh much, make huge power and torque and get great fuel mileage. How about a GT-R engine dropped in? Great engine. A little electronic trickery through the audio system and it'll "sound like an Aston." Heck, why not an Audi turbo V8 just like the Conti?
A crying shame. I've bought my last new Aston.
I get the "be realistic" thing, but that's actually my point. Much as we all (presumably) would love to see the ideal-world clean sheet Aston Martin engine designed by a modern-day Tadek Marek, that's clearly not going to happen. And I've never said that's what is required to make me happy. However...
What is being discussed now is the opposite extreme. A merely re-chipped "off-the-shelf" AMG engine -- the same exact engine that will be found in a variety of M-Bs -- is in no way the only viable path. It is also certainly NOT what the companies told us -- the deal would result in "bespoke V8 engines" for Aston Martin, we were told. If this new info is true, then they just blatantly lied to us. Certainly they could -- and should -- make a genuine effort to make the engine different, and specific to Aston. At the very least they could develop "bespoke" cylinder heads for it. It's more expensive than a re-chip, but it's not prohibitive. Perhaps give it a different bore and/or stroke. This would cost vastly less than a whole new engine and is entirely within the realm of "modern reality." It would also show that they have some respect for the marque and its history and heritage. Off-the-shelf engines shows that M-B has no more respect for Aston than they had for any of their previous "collaborations" -- none of which turned out well for the other company. That they have to talk of making it sound and feel "like an Aston" really says it all
Ford could have merely dropped an off-the-shelf Jaguar engine into the current cars. They didn't -- they spent the money and made the effort to give Astons their own engines, to do it right. AMG is talking about a different computer chip. How very sad.
I've always viewed Aston Martin as being on the same level of automotive specialness as Ferrari. If Astons are reduced to using someone else's off-the-shelf engine, they won't deserve to be in that same caliber anymore.
If Autocar is correct, I've bought my last new Aston (that was just for you, Rich
).
What is being discussed now is the opposite extreme. A merely re-chipped "off-the-shelf" AMG engine -- the same exact engine that will be found in a variety of M-Bs -- is in no way the only viable path. It is also certainly NOT what the companies told us -- the deal would result in "bespoke V8 engines" for Aston Martin, we were told. If this new info is true, then they just blatantly lied to us. Certainly they could -- and should -- make a genuine effort to make the engine different, and specific to Aston. At the very least they could develop "bespoke" cylinder heads for it. It's more expensive than a re-chip, but it's not prohibitive. Perhaps give it a different bore and/or stroke. This would cost vastly less than a whole new engine and is entirely within the realm of "modern reality." It would also show that they have some respect for the marque and its history and heritage. Off-the-shelf engines shows that M-B has no more respect for Aston than they had for any of their previous "collaborations" -- none of which turned out well for the other company. That they have to talk of making it sound and feel "like an Aston" really says it all
Ford could have merely dropped an off-the-shelf Jaguar engine into the current cars. They didn't -- they spent the money and made the effort to give Astons their own engines, to do it right. AMG is talking about a different computer chip. How very sad.
I've always viewed Aston Martin as being on the same level of automotive specialness as Ferrari. If Astons are reduced to using someone else's off-the-shelf engine, they won't deserve to be in that same caliber anymore.
If Autocar is correct, I've bought my last new Aston (that was just for you, Rich
).Mosdef said:
But aren't you advocating change just for the sake of it? The AMG engines are very unlikely to be undeveloped and I doubt they'd benefit from what you have suggested.
Much as Aston are up there with Ferrari in terms of desirability - most here will see them as more desirable, I'm sure - I don't think you could argue it is as with respect to engines. I have never been able to admire the current range, for some reason the Jaguar/Ford DNA puts me off completely, regardless of how good the cars look.
I take my hat off to you for being so protective of the brand but I'm in the opposite camp to you. With an updated range powered by AMG derived engines, I'm far more likely to become an AM buyer although, I lament the introduction of forced induction.
Perhaps there is some "change for change's sake" but only because having an off-the-shelf engine (from anyone) should never happen to an Aston. But it's not that simple. IMO, the odds that the off-the-shelf AMG unit would have the characteristics that Aston would have chosen for itself (even considering the ability to change "characteristics" through electronic tuning) are nearly zero. For me, it's not only differentiation for differentiation's sake, though I think that is important in this situation. It's also that mechanical differences -- not merely electronic ones -- are likely to result in an engine that is engineered more closely to what Aston would really want in an engine. Do you think Bentley would have chosen to hang a massively heavy W12 cantilevered as far forward of the front wheels as possible in its Conti if it designed the car itself? Certainly not. That may be a somewhat extreme example, but it illustrates my point.Much as Aston are up there with Ferrari in terms of desirability - most here will see them as more desirable, I'm sure - I don't think you could argue it is as with respect to engines. I have never been able to admire the current range, for some reason the Jaguar/Ford DNA puts me off completely, regardless of how good the cars look.
I take my hat off to you for being so protective of the brand but I'm in the opposite camp to you. With an updated range powered by AMG derived engines, I'm far more likely to become an AM buyer although, I lament the introduction of forced induction.
Regarding the current range and the "Ford/Jaguar DNA" putting you off, it's precisely because Ford did so much to differentiate Aston from Ford and Jaguar that I was interested enough to buy one. Also, there seems to be no doubt whatsoever that the next Astons will have far more AMG DNA than the current cars have Ford or Jaguar genes. Is AMG DNA ok, but Jaguar DNA isn't? As I've said, every component -- block, crank, rods, heads, pistons, cams, etc. in the current Aston V8 engine is unique to Aston's engine. Of course, the VH platform is completely bespoke. Parts bin switchgear is certainly nothing new, but the current cars have far fewer parts bin switches than, for example, the Vanquish (original) or the NP V8s do. The DB7, beautiful though it is, never made me want it because of the Jaguar underpinnings. I like Jaguars. But Astons should be Astons, not Jags -- or AMGs.
DB9VolanteDriver said:
Quote from Bob Dover, former Chairman of AML.
"TWR was trying to sell engines to us and the Jaguar engine (TWR modded 6.4L V12) was an obvious alternative because the V12 was such a huge mountain to climb financially. But whether it is an Aston Martin or a Ferrari, it is important to have your badge on the engine."
Says it all to me.
Yup. David Brown and Victor Gauntlett are on record saying very similar things. Of course, in this context he means that your badge alone is NOT sufficient. An Aston badge on the cam covers of an off-the-shelf AMG engine does NOT a bespoke engine make. That would just be lying."TWR was trying to sell engines to us and the Jaguar engine (TWR modded 6.4L V12) was an obvious alternative because the V12 was such a huge mountain to climb financially. But whether it is an Aston Martin or a Ferrari, it is important to have your badge on the engine."
Says it all to me.
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