Fast Road Geo Settings for V8V-S

[Ian_UK1]

Just over a month ago, after several years of owning 911s of various types, I bought my first ever Aston (a 2014 V8V SP10 manual). Whilst I'm thoroughly enjoying the new toy, there are a number of things I think can be improved, so I'm about to embark on a journey to personalise the car to my own liking.

Tomorrow morning, the car is off to Bamford Rose for their manifolds/cats/airbox/remap modification to add some extra performance. Once BR have worked their magic, the next change I want to make is to the car's suspension geometry to sharpen the handling a little.

At this stage, I don't want to change any suspension hardware, as the car is only for road use for now. I just want to improve the car's initial turn-in and to dial-out the 'safety-net' of slight understeer that's apparent in the car's factory setup.

Looking at the standard geo settings (from the FAQs on here - are those recommendations still current?) it would seem that additional front camber and a reduction in rear toe-in would be good starting points to achieve this. From past experience, I've found more front camber usually helps front-end bite on most cars (albeit within limits for road use - too much can lead to horrible tramlining) whilst reducing the rear toe-in generally helps the car to rotate as it turns-in, giving a generally more responsive feel.

I was hoping to find out if anyone else has experimented with different geo setups on the V8V-S and could comment on whether this would be a sensible way to go? I'll probably take the car to Chris Franklin (Center Gravity) as he's done some excellent work for me in the past. Whilst Chris is happy to experiment with different setups until we can find something that works well, it would certainly be beneficial if I could go to him with a known good starting point from which to begin to experiment!

Looking forward to hearing your comments, thoughts and advice.

Edited by Ian_UK1 on Sunday 21st August 16:23

[Ian_UK1]

J12MOC said:

Ian. Have you spoken to BR about this? I had a similar conversation with Adrian and discussed more neg camber on the front and a bit less on the back to balance things. They have a setup which was used on their race car.
Alternatively David Appelby have loads of race experience and settings which could be tweaked for fast road use.
Interested in what you finally end up with as its a path I'm on too.

Strangely enough, that's exactly what I've just done!

I dropped my car off at BR earlier and (amongst other things) discussed geo with Mike. One thing I hadn't thought of, regarding suspension setup, was diff settings and Mike told me the key to getting these cars to rotate properly into a corner is more about the diff settings, at the rear, than changes to the suspension geometry. He also confirmed that additional front camber was useful in getting the front to turn more responsively.

As BR obviously know what they're talking about, I've asked them to put their 'fast-road' geo on the car for me (including their recommended diff settings) whilst the car's with them. Mike clearly doesn't want to give away the exact settings they use, but he assures me the result will neutralise the mild understeer that Aston's 'play-it-safe' (Mike's words) factory settings bestow on the car.

I'll let everyone know how effective BR's chassis changes have been (good, bad or otherwise) once I've collected the car later this week.

Edited by Ian_UK1 on Monday 22 August 16:04

[Ian_UK1]

Impasse said:

It will be much cheaper and overall more beneficial to learn how to adjust your driving style to suit the car.

Interesting comment.....

If by this you mean that, for the most part, driver training trumps chassis changes, then I'd not want to disagree with you. Whilst I could never claim to have anything like the skill set of even a journeyman professional driver, the time I spent being coached by Don Palmer at Bruntingthorpe still made a massive difference (albeit from a lowly starting point) to a) my ability to listen to the messages a car is trying to communicate to me and b) how to react to them to control a car, relatively safely, up-to and beyond the limit. Had I not taken the time (and expense - Brunters is very hard on brakes and tyres!) to try to improve my driving skills, I agree that chassis changes would probably have been wasted on me. I might have felt 'a difference' but I wouldn't have really known how to interpret it or exploit it.

As an aside, one thing getting some professional coaching really did highlight was how little I really knew before making the decision to learn. Like most 'untrained' road drivers, I genuinely thought, my abilities were 'above average'. (It's a logical/statistical absurdity that apparently 90% of drivers believe they're 'above average'). The truth was that I actually knew SFA about really driving a car quickly and effectively. My starting point was, TBH, somewhere between hopeless and incompetent! Thankfully, so Don told me, that is the norm rather than the exception and realising I needed to forget more-or-less everything I thought I knew was the key to moving forward.

So back to the Aston - yes, I could drive around the 'play-it-safe' setup, but that reduces the enjoyment of the car when it can easily be changed to respond in a more neutral way. It's always better to work with the car than against it.

Edited by Ian_UK1 on Tuesday 23 August 08:49

[Ian_UK1]

HBradley said:

Ian,
I'm driving a V8VS & would be interested to hear how the geometry tweaks BR have made improve (or otherwise) the handling of the car?

Unfortunately, this has become a little more complicated since I opened this topic. Like some other SP10 owners, I've just been disappointed to discover that the suspension fitted as standard to the car isn't the 'S' suspension at all - despite the SP10 being sold as a Vantage S special edition and being badged Vantage S - it is, in fact, the stock, comfort, Vantage suspension.

What this means in practice is the car is a lot less direct than an 'S'. The turn-in, irrespective of what's done to the geo, will never be anywhere close to a car fitted with proper 'S' spring/damper units. Apart from rendering the car far less capable than it should be (something that really pi**es me off, as it will cost a lot to rectify) it also means that any changes or improvements a different setup makes on my car won't translate to the 'S'. The same geo on an 'S' would affect it differently, due to the higher spring rates and different damper calibration.

That said, Mike, Adrian and team at BR found many inconsistencies in my car's suspension geometry - the ride heights (and consequently corner-weights) front and rear overall toe, rear thrust angle (unequal rear toe) and front/rear cambers were all over the place. Correcting these discrepancies and changing the settings to a 'secret' (they wouldn't give their settings away) 'fast road' setup has made a big difference to the car - albeit within the context of what's possible with the 'comedy' suspension fitted to the car! As a result of BR's changes the car is sharper & more planted with better turn-in, better steering feel and a more progressive response in-corner. A shame it's all way below the levels achieved in the 'S'.

The only way to get my car to handle properly is to buy 'S' suspension from Aston (including the huge Aston tax) go aftermarket with Nitrons, KW v3 or similar, or consider BR's switchable Bilstein setup. Once fitted and aligned, it's somewhere between £3500 and £5500 I shouldn't need to spend. Thanks Aston Martin. Maybe I should have stuck with Porsche.

[Ian_UK1]

J12KJR said:

I think in your position I would be having a discussion with Aston Martin direct, a quick google search of vantage SP10 brings up the press release from AM (link below) which clearly states that the SP10 is a V8S with tweaks.

https://www.astonmartin.com/en/media-centre/press-...

As this does not seem to be the case for your car I would be asking how they intend to correct the issue. The only possible unknown here would be if there was an option to spec the car with comfort suspension but then you would expect the car to be sold on as such.
Where did you buy from? AM dealership, independant or private?

Thanks for the reply. I bought the car from the Aston Martin dealer (Stratstone) in Wilmslow, Cheshire. Suspension was never discussed at all as the car was just sold as a Vantage 'S' Special Edition.

According to Mike at BR, the spring/damper units on my SP10 do have a part number unique to the SP10, but are consistent, in both spring rates and damper performance, with the standard, comfort suspension fitted to the Vantage. The 'S' spring/damper units have higher spring rates and much firmer damping, as do the sports-pack spring/dampers.

Reading through the sales brochure for the SP10 (one the dealership found for me) 'Sports Suspension' is listed as an option on the SP10 (but for the Coupe only). The inference, given that the rest of the car is being touted as a Vantage S, is that this would be one stage further on from normal 'S' suspension. My car, unfortunately, would suggest otherwise - it looks like normal 'S' suspension had to be specified as an option on this supposed Vantage S special edition. Crazy (and really misleading).

So unfortunately, it looks like I'm stuck with a large bill to get my car to handle properly. Not a good start to Aston ownership and a great way for Aston to create animosity towards their brand for a new owner.

[Ian_UK1]

J12KJR said:

Ian

I for one would still have a long hard chat with AM @ Gaydon, I found out to my expense that discussing things with a dealer is very far removed from talking directly to the factory.
A few conversations with the factory will not cost you anything more than your time but may well end up with some form of assistance from them. Nothing to be lost but much to be gained.
Something which is touted as a V8S plus something which the SP10 clearly is should not in reality be a V8S minus.

Agreed. Will make the call this afternoon.

[Ian_UK1]

Firstly, many thanks to everyone for the replies regarding the lack of sports spring/damper units on the SP10.

My feeling is that, whilst it isn't exactly made clear in the SP10 literature, nowhere is it stated that the car has the same suspension as the 'S'. As sports suspension is also listed as an option on the SP10 coupe (albeit, only in the 'small print') I think I'd be on a hiding to nothing trying to get some sort of goodwill or redress from either the dealer or Aston Martin - my time would be probably better spent trying to earn a few £s!

With that in mind, I decided to look for a workable alternative that would cost me a whole lot less than buying 'S' suspension off Aston. Co-incidentally, I was down at Bamford Rose again today (to get an X-pipe and quieter back box fitted - BR's upgrades make the car VERY loud indeed) and I asked Adrian if there was any way my existing dampers could be modified. Turns-out BR has a proper damper rig (to measure how the dampers operate) and all the kit to re-machine/re-valve the Bilsteins. In essence, they can turn them into 'S' units at a fraction of the price of buying new! Adrian also thought they may have some used/worn sport-pack spring/dampers that could possibly be refurbed for my car using the same method. Result!

The BR guys are getting back to me over the next few days, once they've worked out the best option. So it looks like my car will soon be handling properly after all!

[Ian_UK1]

V8V Pete said:

Hi Ian. Following your saga I couldn't help checking with my dealer to see which suspension my SP10 has. They confirmed that it does have sports suspension which isn't that surprising as my car started life as Darren Turner's car. So if you want a direct comparison before you go down the modification route then let me know and I'm sure we can meet in the Peak District somewhere for an informal road test. Maybe make it a Midlands/North Aston meet? Some great roads to explore.

BTW how are you finding the exhaust with the x-pipe and different back box? Which back box did they go for, a 4.3 one?

Midlands/North Aston meet sounds like a great idea! Please put me down as a definite 'yes'.

Thanks for the offer to compare our cars' suspension setups too - that would be really informative. I rather think the difference will be very obvious after 30 seconds in the passenger seat of your car!

The X-pipe makes a very big difference to the sound of the V8. It completely changes the type of sound the car produces, right across the rev range. The sound produced with the X-pipe installed is a higher-pitched (but no unduly so) mellifluous, yowl with no V8-burble to it at all. I'm not sure which I like best to be honest, the gruff, burbly, Aston original, or the x-pipe howl. Either sounds amazing! Other things about the X-pipe that are good: 1) it's very refined indeed in quiet mode - excellent for motorways etc. 2) it seems to add just a little more low-end torque.

Going from the original SP10 rear box to the standard 4.7 unit is more of a mixed bag and, as time progresses, I'm not sure the x-pipe and standard 4.7 box go together particularly well (in loud mode - all comments below apply to valves-open operation). I commented to Adrian at BR that I thought the results with the X-pipe/standard 4.7 box actually sounded louder than with the X-pipe/SP10 rear box. Adrian assured me it couldn't be, as the standard 4.7 box has some silencing in loud mode, whereas the SP10 box is essentially straight-through. Whilst I'm sure he's technically correct, to me it still seemed louder!

Having used the car for several days since the X-pipe/standard 4.7 box installation, it still doesn't seem quieter than X-pipe/SP10 box. However, I've also noticed there's a fairly pronounced resonance at about 2800 rpm (with a harmonic at 5600rpm or thereabouts) where the sound gets a lot louder - maybe this is what I'm hearing. I'm now beginning to think the standard 4.7 back box probably silences low-frequency sound (that the car produces with the standard centre pipe) to some degree, but at certain rpms, has little (or no) effect on the higher-pitched sound produced by the X-pipe installation. If this is correct, I'd certainly like to try the combination of the standard centre pipe and standard 4.7 back box at some point - it just might be the best combination of all with BR's manifolds and 200 cell cats.