V12V (six speed manual) vs V12VS (seven speed manual)

[JohnG1]

Had a back-to-back drive in a V12V and then a V12VS.

V12V - carbon-fibre seats, B&O, six speed manual, mechanically standard
V12VS - standard seats, premium stereo, seven speed manual, adaptive suspension, vanquish steering rack, dealer stock car

A few differences I spotted (beyond the obvious) the V12VS does not have the leather pull in the boot to assist with closure. And the carpet does not look as good.

V12VS - has a lot of changes in feel and mechanically. The steering is radically different, the V12V allows you to feel everything, the V12VS insulates you from the road (drove the exact same road to give fair comparison).

V12VS gearbox is a bit tricky, first time I drove a dogleg box but I imagine I would get the swing of it eventually. Did make the 1st to 4th shift a few times... oops!

AMShift is cute and can be switched off (didn't do a WOT upshift, no chance)
Suspension and seat combination insulate you from the road, whereas V12V carbon-fibre seat allows you to feel everything.

Satnav is better. Torque meter is gimmicky but I like it. Haptic feedback buttons, waste of money. Vanquish dash is alright but doesn't really change anything - no CD player is one thing.

Exhaust noise is better, seems quieter at low revs and louder at high revs.

I'd love to test drive an S with carbon-fibre seats and B&O back to back with an original V12V. See if you get back the rawness of road feel from the seat, even if not from the steering rack.

I think the S is a very different beast to the V12V original. Although the ingredients are very similar the outcome is radically different.

The V12V is not a car I would let someone else drive. The V12VS would be OK for someone not used to high powered rwd sportscars.

[JohnG1]

Flugplatz said:

Is there any difference in the steering rack from V12V to "S" ?
Ive not heard that before. Vanquish steering rack? not heard that either.

Sounds like you need to try one with the lightweight seats and press a few buttons.

The v12v standard suspension is similar in feel to the "s" with sport selected.
Obviously with the "s" you can choose to go softer for bumpy roads or harder again for track that you cant on the V12V.

http://www.evo.co.uk/aston-martin/v12-vantage/7321/aston-martin-v12-vantage-s-review-best-of-2013

"We are big fans of the original, but the S is much more nailed down in the corners and revs more freely whilst still retaining that big-hearted character of the earlier car. The ZF Servotronic steering has a quicker rack (15:1 down from 17:1) but also has variable assistance. Thankfully you don’t notice the variable assistance and there’s always a pleasing weight to it."

[JohnG1]

AMArchie said:

Thanks for sharing your thoughts.
When the V12VS manual first was released, I had several approaches from a AM main dealer to try to tempt me into one for a drive. In the end, I declined, as I struggled to justify to myself the financial hit I would take (~£70k?) in swapping my 2010 V12V for the new model - especially when I realised what I really appreciate is the original model's simplicity of purpose., and purity of execution by Aston when they originally conceived the V12V.

This is what I am considering. I liked the suspension in soft mode being a lot more compliant on crappy roads. But that could be a retrofit to an existing V12V by Bamford Rose. Power increase, well, rip out the secondary cats and you are pretty much inline with V12VS to all intents and purposes.

So maybe it's £10k to Bamford Rose to get the performance or £50k-£60k to AML to get the 7 speed box. Sure, there is more to it than that. As I wrote AMShift is cute. But does an extra gear, better sat-nav and a throttle blipper/torque interruptor add up to being worth the cost of change...

[JohnG1]

HBradley said:

RobDown said:

JohnG1 said:

This is what I am considering. I liked the suspension in soft mode being a lot more compliant on crappy roads. But that could be a retrofit to an existing V12V by Bamford Rose. Power increase, well, rip out the secondary cats and you are pretty much inline with V12VS to all intents and purposes.

So maybe it's £10k to Bamford Rose to get the performance or £50k-£60k to AML to get the 7 speed box. Sure, there is more to it than that. As I wrote AMShift is cute. But does an extra gear, better sat-nav and a throttle blipper/torque interruptor add up to being worth the cost of change...

Also a younger car - but how much that is worth to you will depend on your plans for the car

Or indeed the effect that the mods would have on the value of the car? Arguably as the V12V is increasingly becoming a classic, playing around with it to this degree might negatively impact its value? That said if it's a real keeper, why not!

All of those proposed changes to current V12V can be reversed, just some pipes and new suspension components. Box the old ones up, keep them dry and swap out on sale...

[JohnG1]

HBradley said:

...I haven't got crustal balls...

Good to hear that!

[JohnG1]

Jon39 said:

JohnG1 said:

... or £50k-£60k to AML to get the 7 speed box. Sure, there is more to it than that. As I wrote AMShift is cute. But does an extra gear, better sat-nav and a throttle blipper/torque interruptor add up to being worth the cost of change...

We have sometimes been told about regulatory matters that apply to new models.
I presume therefore that it is for this reason, that AML did not fit the manual Graziano 6 speed gearbox, when they wanted a manual V12VS.
The car was already specified with the authorities to have the 7 speed gearbox (SS3).

What could be any other reason for having a 7 speed manual, on a car with a V12 6 litre engine producing such enormous torque?
At about £150,000, please don't say you save money, by using less petrol in 7th gear.

Maybe Graziano-Oerlikon didn't want to make more six speed gearboxes? I imagine that AML is a small customer of a small product for Graziano-Oerlikon - perhaps the supplier forced the issue?

I am interested to see that GT12 has the secondary (downstream, not in the exhaust manifold) catalytic convertors deleted. If that is road legal then why fit the damn things to V12VS??

Fitting the Graziano box to the Mercedes 4.0 hot-v V8 is mechanically do-able, but will it pass emissions testing? I suspect that reason will mean no manual gearbox.

[JohnG1]

jonby said:

JohnG1 said:

I suspect that reason will mean no manual gearbox.

There has to be a manual version. They have publicly made clear manual will always be an option on at least one model and that they see a chance to offer a point of differentiation now that most mainstream high end sports car manufacturers, with the exception of Porsche, have dropped manuals.

I am sure this is not just about the number of manual cars they will sell but also, the arguable benefits to perception of the brand as more of an enthusiast's choice because they still offer manual. By association effectively.

It also fits in with AP's comments of new vantage being 'a weekend warrior'. This car simply has to have a manual option and I can't believe it won't.

If the number of manual box cars sold is small relative to entire production then why not put the manual box on the top of the range car where the profit margin is highest?

I wonder, what does a petrolhead in Shanghai, Shenzhen or anywhere in China think of this manual versus automatic versus dual-clutch blah blah blah? Since he/she is the target market, not us Anglosphere (and the odd French, Dutch and German) folks...

[JohnG1]

Thanks for the comments on this thread.

Not sure I really grasp the point of the 7-speed manual and I wonder how many people bought one who were not already Aston Martin owners?

I drove an initial sportshift I Vantage back in around 2007(8?) and think I will have a try with the third generation box and see if that's fun. I have had a 997.2 turbo with PDK so I understand what a dual clutch box is capable of, and also that the SSIII is not dual clutch, so expectations are managed.

SSIII with AMShift would seem to offer something worth test driving...

[JohnG1]

A further comment and question for folks who have driven a V12V and a V12VS (manual and sportshift).

When coming completely off throttle in V12V there is a pronounced change, the engine fuelling is cut and you can feel the engine brake effect. In V12VSM I did not feel that anywhere near as much. It was almost as if there is "comfort fuelling" - to avoid nodding dog effect for driver and passenger.

Anyone else notice this?

[JohnG1]

AdamV12V said:

Quarterly said:

I've got a question for you Adam. When I took a test drive in the 7 speed manual, I found the AM shift impressive, it made it very easy to drive, almost like an automatic, but without it on not as easy or pleasant as my 6 speed. So if I owned one, I'd probably drive in AM shift all the time. I would be interested to know as you drive one regularly, do you have a preference and do you find its just better to leave it in AM shift all the time?

I drive with it on all the time as I love the blips on down shifts. That's the biggest plus point of the feature if you ask me, but yes its a little easier during changes I guess due to the rev matching, but I still lift off the throttle for gear changes as I do when AM Shift is off as its second nature to do so, so it really doesn't affect driving style at all.

Flat shifts are very hard to do and require a lot of focus to get them right, although with training I am sure it could come more naturally - but that's the only time I would see any whiff of a similarlity with an automatic. I can't say I really find it all that different to full manual mode, so I'm a bit perplexed as to why you found that, as even SSIII in full auto-mode is not really like a true automatic...

Could you please explain a little more - why are flat shifts hard to do? I thought the point was that the TCU and ECU had a little chat and interrupted torque such that it had the effect of lifting off the throttle, but without having to lift off the throttle? I didn't try it on the test drive I had, so would love to find out more on this one...

[JohnG1]

waremark said:

If you don't enjoy rev matching yourself why do you choose a manual? When I have driven manuals equipped with rev matching I have left it firmly switched off. There is plenty of pleasure to be gained in driving a two pedal car, but for me the whole point of driving a manual is to get satisfaction from making good rev matched gear changes.

I have yet to try a V12SM. I expect I will like it, but not enough to pay the difference from my 20k mile 2012 V12V.

I am hoping to have a go in a GT8 this weekend - no namby-pamby electronic gear change assistance in that!

And did Tim let you drive it? How was it?

[JohnG1]

AdamV12V said:

Sorry I've not made it clear what I meant. Technically its easy, you just keep the right foot to the floor, press the clutch, change gear and re-engage clutch as you would any other gear change. The hard bit is stopping your brain from taking the foot off the gas and you do that. After 30 years of driving manuals my brain is hard wired to keep lifting off the gas regardless, and even when really concentrating on it my leg still twitched to come off a little. After about 3-4 attempts I finally managed to override the years of training, and it was indeed very satisfying to do.

All of that was on the test drive however and I haven't actually done that in Kermit yet, but that's down to a) the car is still new and I feel it needs running in before doing anything quite so punishing, and b) I very rarely drive that hard anyway, so flat shifts are in reality a bit of a pub-bragging type thing. A bit like launch control modes on PDK cars etc... nobody realistically does it on a regular basis to their own car.

I drove the car exclusively all day today with AM Shift off to see how I got on. I have to say the gear changes didn't seem any different at all, just as smooth and just as easy to drive. I did miss the down blips though, so just as I was pulling into the garage tonight I ended the day's experiment by switching it back on!

Edited by AdamV12V on Wednesday 25th January 21:01

Ok, I understand this better now, thank you for the clarification. A follow-up question... do you have to be WOT to use AMShift? Or can you be driving on partial throttle and therefore not have to lift off the throttle?

[JohnG1]

One other thing - the brakes in V12VSM seem much more powerful than V12V. Which is pretty staggering since V12V brakes are immense. Anyone with more experience have any thoughts on this one?

[JohnG1]

roughrider said:

JohnG1 said:

One other thing - the brakes in V12VSM seem much more powerful than V12V. Which is pretty staggering since V12V brakes are immense. Anyone with more experience have any thoughts on this one?

Generation 3 Brembo CCM brakes.
The only major common component between V12V and V12VS, is the bodyshell. New engine, gearbox, brakes, suspension, etc.

I am not sure I would be so bold. The VVT heads and ECU are different, but the block is the same as are the ancilliaries. Valley cover is a different colour too!

Suspension - new springs and dampers, the rest is the same isn't it? Gearbox agreed.

But anyway - thoughts on relative performance in real world usage?

I did an emergency stop in a V12V at Millbrook, 30mph to dead stop in one car length. Would love to find more data on relative performance...