Static Sag v Rider Sag
Discussion
I understand the difference between the two although not sure how they actually relate to each other in practice.
My understanding is you set the static sag up and the if rider sag is in wrong range you change the spring?
But why would two companies who are suspension experts only setup static and make no mention of rider sag?
Is static sag more important? If so ... Why?
My understanding is you set the static sag up and the if rider sag is in wrong range you change the spring?
But why would two companies who are suspension experts only setup static and make no mention of rider sag?
Is static sag more important? If so ... Why?
bass gt3 said:
when I get home I'll write you a full dissertation as to why you only need to be concerned about rider sag. static is a useful number but until your bike can ride itself rider sag is more relevant.
And before we start you need to get comfortable with the following. ...
Preload DOES NOT affect spring rates. it ONLY affects ride height...
Think it over and we'll chat later.
Legend And before we start you need to get comfortable with the following. ...
Preload DOES NOT affect spring rates. it ONLY affects ride height...
Think it over and we'll chat later.
But aren't most sportsbike shock springs now progressive ... Therefore would affect spring rate?
I already have total travel of both forks and shock from handbook so working out correct preload is straight forward enough.
Front - 35-40mm
Rear - 30-35mm
I know that the fork springs on the blade are actually a tiny bit stiff but not far out at all but the shock is soft ... So I think at present the rear is sitting a bit low which is causing the bike to run wide in the power out of bends IMHO.
I'm actually considering a replacement shock as the standard unit isn't great anyway so may just get correct spring for a replacement unit. That's for another discussion.
It's good to know that rider sag is more important which still makes me wonder what these so called suspension 'experts' are playing at...
This is all because I've seen a few suspension setup sheets from some well known tuners that are trusted and my settings on the bike differ quite substantially ... Despite same bike and rider weight ... and my discussions with Ryan who said the same thing about another company.
Hence back to basics I go ...
Front - 35-40mm
Rear - 30-35mm
I know that the fork springs on the blade are actually a tiny bit stiff but not far out at all but the shock is soft ... So I think at present the rear is sitting a bit low which is causing the bike to run wide in the power out of bends IMHO.
I'm actually considering a replacement shock as the standard unit isn't great anyway so may just get correct spring for a replacement unit. That's for another discussion.
It's good to know that rider sag is more important which still makes me wonder what these so called suspension 'experts' are playing at...
This is all because I've seen a few suspension setup sheets from some well known tuners that are trusted and my settings on the bike differ quite substantially ... Despite same bike and rider weight ... and my discussions with Ryan who said the same thing about another company.
Hence back to basics I go ...
bass gt3 said:
not having a pop at you but it staggers me why anyone would go to a "suspension" company for anything other than a rebuild. having a complete stranger dial in your bike is like letting the neighbour shag your missus so you can see how it's done! !
I'm out at the moment faffing around on trials bikes but I'll write up a "how to" later. maybe make it a sticky seeing how often this subject comes up
To be fair they set the bike up then asked me to sit on it and then lots of nods all round ... I'm out at the moment faffing around on trials bikes but I'll write up a "how to" later. maybe make it a sticky seeing how often this subject comes up
The bike compresses and rebounds equally front to rear but I reckon shock preload is out at a min...
Regardless got a mate coming over so we can measure rider sag properly:.. I will record ALL the settings down on paper before go any further.
bass gt3 said:
Always the same!! too soft in the front, too hard in the rear. Every Jap bike I've measured is like that.
How much preload in the front?
Do you know what the standard springs are in the Honda??
11nm rings a Bell... Preload is on standard ... How much preload in the front?
Do you know what the standard springs are in the Honda??
Edited by bass gt3 on Sunday 29th March 16:34
Just checking rest
Preload is a pain in ass ... 
I've now got the following information and have set the bike up as so ....
Fork measurement in air: 124mm
With rider (no kit): 82mm
Was 42mm ...
Preload - 7 3/4 turns from fully in
Preload - 6 turns turns from fully in
Now 38mm
(Forgot this is measured from fully out and didn't wind out fully so not sure how many turns that is....)
Compression was 3 turns, now 1 3/4 turns
Rebound was 1 3/4 turns now 1 1/4 turns
Rear Shock in air: 620mm
With rider (no kit) 585mm (4th notch)
With rider (no kit): 587mm (5th notch)
With rider (no kit) 590mm (6th notch)
33mm... Set at 5th notch
29mm ... Set at 6th notch (Left here)
Compression ... 2 1/2 turns now 1 1/4 turns
Rebound ... 2 1/4 turns now 1 turn
So ... 38mm front, 29mm rear making assumption wearing kit will increase to roughly 40mm front, 30mm rear means preload is in right range.
I have too much time on my hands
I've now got the following information and have set the bike up as so ....
Fork measurement in air: 124mm
With rider (no kit): 82mm
Was 42mm ...
Preload - 7 3/4 turns from fully in
Preload - 6 turns turns from fully in
Now 38mm
(Forgot this is measured from fully out and didn't wind out fully so not sure how many turns that is....)
Compression was 3 turns, now 1 3/4 turns
Rebound was 1 3/4 turns now 1 1/4 turns
Rear Shock in air: 620mm
With rider (no kit) 585mm (4th notch)
With rider (no kit): 587mm (5th notch)
With rider (no kit) 590mm (6th notch)
33mm... Set at 5th notch
29mm ... Set at 6th notch (Left here)
Compression ... 2 1/2 turns now 1 1/4 turns
Rebound ... 2 1/4 turns now 1 turn
So ... 38mm front, 29mm rear making assumption wearing kit will increase to roughly 40mm front, 30mm rear means preload is in right range.
I have too much time on my hands
Bloody hell... talk about going round in circles ... Wish hadn't bothered buggering about now
Spring rates:
Front - 1.1kg/mm
Rear - 11.2kg/mm
I'm not crawling around on floor adjusting s
t in my bike kit ... Sod that.
Travel of fork is more than the shock so why the same measurements? I've always set my bikes up to have more at front than rear.
Spring rates:
Front - 1.1kg/mm
Rear - 11.2kg/mm
I'm not crawling around on floor adjusting s
t in my bike kit ... Sod that. Travel of fork is more than the shock so why the same measurements? I've always set my bikes up to have more at front than rear.
Range Info:
Fork travel - 120mm
Fork preload - 15 turns
Fork comp - 3 1/4 turns
Fork rebound - 3 1/4 turns
Shock travel - 135mm
Shock preload - 10 clicks
Shock comp - 4 1/4 turns
Shock rebound - 3 1/4 turns
Edited by Mr OCD on Sunday 29th March 20:34
Edited by Mr OCD on Sunday 29th March 20:45
bass gt3 said:
So you've slowed your rebound damping down by closing it to 1 1/2 turns??
Unless you can say why, I'd question that. Too slow rebound is one of the worst conditions suspension can be afflicted with. 90% of peeps seem to slow it down much too much yet don't understand why it's so important.
Bottom line is you need the rebound as FAST as possible but only to a point where the fork or shock rises then settles, rather than bounces or oscillates.
Also, i'd be wary of setting the comp or rebound unless you've been out on the bike for 30-60 mins and the suspension is warmed up.
Half tempted to put it back as it was now mate ... I'm using the bike daily and clearly my logic and understanding is not enough to set the bike up properly. Unless you can say why, I'd question that. Too slow rebound is one of the worst conditions suspension can be afflicted with. 90% of peeps seem to slow it down much too much yet don't understand why it's so important.
Bottom line is you need the rebound as FAST as possible but only to a point where the fork or shock rises then settles, rather than bounces or oscillates.
Also, i'd be wary of setting the comp or rebound unless you've been out on the bike for 30-60 mins and the suspension is warmed up.
I got the compression and rebound settings from the CBR forum, which seem to match suspension setups from several companies over here ... Except mine which I'm questioning ...
Given the rear shock has too little sag for its travel I'm going out to reduce that down to notch 4, which is about 35mm ...
I thought winding in the comp and rebound hardens the suspension and therefore makes it faster not slower.
Confused!
So just to reiterate to avoid further confusion!
Fork preload 9 turns in from fully out of a total of 15 turns (so I have raised the ride height slightly)
Fork compression 1 3/4 turns from fully in from a total of 3 1/4 turns (made stiffer)
Fork rebound 1 1/4 turns from fully in from a total of 3 1/4 turns (made stiffer)
Shock preload on setting 6 of 10 ... So I've raised ride height at rear as well)
Shock compression now 1 1/4 turns from fully in from total 4 1/4 turns. (Made stiffer)
Shock rebound now 1 turn from fully in from total of 3 1/4 turns (made stiffer)...
So you can see I've increase compression and rebound both front and rear and also raised both ends slightly as well...
This is hard work
Fork preload 9 turns in from fully out of a total of 15 turns (so I have raised the ride height slightly)
Fork compression 1 3/4 turns from fully in from a total of 3 1/4 turns (made stiffer)
Fork rebound 1 1/4 turns from fully in from a total of 3 1/4 turns (made stiffer)
Shock preload on setting 6 of 10 ... So I've raised ride height at rear as well)
Shock compression now 1 1/4 turns from fully in from total 4 1/4 turns. (Made stiffer)
Shock rebound now 1 turn from fully in from total of 3 1/4 turns (made stiffer)...
So you can see I've increase compression and rebound both front and rear and also raised both ends slightly as well...
This is hard work
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