LED indicator bulbs
Discussion
While checking my car over for its MOT test yesterday (passed with no advisories - yay!), I noticed how feeble my front indicators are. The previous owner had replaced the lenses for colourless ones and fitted silvered bulbs to avoid the "fried egg" look, and they do look nice - but they're a bit feeble, frankly.
A few weeks ago, inspired by these two- threads, I replaced my stop/tail lights with CREE LEDs and I'm very happy with them. I'm wondering whether you can get similar amber LEDs?
Am I right in thinking that the indicator bulbs are 382 (P21W)?
So has anyone had any success fitting LED indicator bulbs? Did you have problems with compatibility with the flasher unit - or will I get away with it if I only replace the fronts?
I can't immediately find an amber variant of the CREE LEDs that I ordered for the stop/tail lights. Any suggestions for a suitable bulb?
Edited to add - here is a candidate: link
And you need a flasher unit like this one: link
A few weeks ago, inspired by these two- threads, I replaced my stop/tail lights with CREE LEDs and I'm very happy with them. I'm wondering whether you can get similar amber LEDs?
Am I right in thinking that the indicator bulbs are 382 (P21W)?
So has anyone had any success fitting LED indicator bulbs? Did you have problems with compatibility with the flasher unit - or will I get away with it if I only replace the fronts?
I can't immediately find an amber variant of the CREE LEDs that I ordered for the stop/tail lights. Any suggestions for a suitable bulb?
Edited to add - here is a candidate: link
And you need a flasher unit like this one: link
Edited by Dr Mike Oxgreen on Wednesday 8th November 07:32
Thought I'd update this thread rather than continue posting about indicator bulbs on the thread about brake lights!
I have now received my LED indicator bulbs, plugged one into a front indicator, and unfortunately it flashes fast even with just the one bulb fitted. About double speed I would say. Same double speed with both bulbs plugged into the right-hand side front and back, although hazards are normal speed.
They are somewhat brighter than the conventional bulbs, and the fact that they're such a crisp on-and-off makes them much more noticeable. So I really would like to stick with these bulbs if possible.
The double speed flash is probably acceptable from a legal and MOT point of view, because I believe the allowable range of speeds is pretty wide. But it does look a little silly.
So I guess I need to replace the flasher unit. Whereabouts is this? Under the dash somewhere?
Is it a fairly standard part, and would this do as a replacement?
Some videos... First, hazard lights from the front, showing the difference in brightness and crispness. The front of my car is fitted with colourless indicator lenses and silvered bulbs to avoid the "fried egg" look, and they are a bit feeble. The LED is much more eye-catching.
And secondly, here's the double flash speed. Looks a bit daft, doesn't it?
Edited to add: To clear up the question from earlier in the thread, the bulbs on my car are 382 (P21W), with straight 180-degree pins.
I have now received my LED indicator bulbs, plugged one into a front indicator, and unfortunately it flashes fast even with just the one bulb fitted. About double speed I would say. Same double speed with both bulbs plugged into the right-hand side front and back, although hazards are normal speed.
They are somewhat brighter than the conventional bulbs, and the fact that they're such a crisp on-and-off makes them much more noticeable. So I really would like to stick with these bulbs if possible.
The double speed flash is probably acceptable from a legal and MOT point of view, because I believe the allowable range of speeds is pretty wide. But it does look a little silly.
So I guess I need to replace the flasher unit. Whereabouts is this? Under the dash somewhere?
Is it a fairly standard part, and would this do as a replacement?
Some videos... First, hazard lights from the front, showing the difference in brightness and crispness. The front of my car is fitted with colourless indicator lenses and silvered bulbs to avoid the "fried egg" look, and they are a bit feeble. The LED is much more eye-catching.
And secondly, here's the double flash speed. Looks a bit daft, doesn't it?
Edited to add: To clear up the question from earlier in the thread, the bulbs on my car are 382 (P21W), with straight 180-degree pins.
Edited by Dr Mike Oxgreen on Sunday 12th April 07:38
My plan would indeed be to use LEDs all round - I just bought two to try them out because they're not cheap.
So do you mean that an LED-compatible flasher unit would not cope with conventional bulbs? The one I've linked to appears to say "0.02 - 20A" on it, although the text of the ad doesn't say whether it can be used with normal bulbs.
So do you mean that an LED-compatible flasher unit would not cope with conventional bulbs? The one I've linked to appears to say "0.02 - 20A" on it, although the text of the ad doesn't say whether it can be used with normal bulbs.
Edited by Dr Mike Oxgreen on Sunday 12th April 07:40
Thanks for the info, chaps!
So where is the indicator relay? Am I right in assuming it's under the dash? Never taken that off before, so it's time for me to learn how!
David, that sounds very interesting. If you can dredge up the details that would be great.
Edited to add: Will I be able to access the flasher relay by just removing the bolts on the left-hand side of the dash and tilting the dash up, or does the whole thing have to come off?
So where is the indicator relay? Am I right in assuming it's under the dash? Never taken that off before, so it's time for me to learn how!
David, that sounds very interesting. If you can dredge up the details that would be great.
Edited to add: Will I be able to access the flasher relay by just removing the bolts on the left-hand side of the dash and tilting the dash up, or does the whole thing have to come off?
Edited by Dr Mike Oxgreen on Sunday 12th April 08:24
True. My guess is that the higher flash rate is borderline: I wouldn't put it through an MOT like this, but I'd be surprised if the police could be arsed to pull me over. It does need correcting though.
I've ordered an LED-compatible flasher unit, but still interested in David's suggestion is hat it might be possible to cut a link somewhere.
Any advice on accessing the flasher relay gratefully received.
I've ordered an LED-compatible flasher unit, but still interested in David's suggestion is hat it might be possible to cut a link somewhere.
Any advice on accessing the flasher relay gratefully received.
Update...
Well, the flasher unit I bought works perfectly! It also seems happy with a mixture of LEDs and incandescent bulbs, although now (after much shouting and swearing) I have LED indicators all round.
Lifting the left-hand side of the dash was enough to gain access to the flasher. You simply undo the two screws holding on the glove pocket, and it hinges back to reveal a hole. Right in front of you is some kind of fastener that I couldn't figure out what you'd use to undo - it seemed circular - but ignore that. You're looking for a horizontal bolt pointing towards the front of the car, and then you need to grope around to find a vertical bolt which is out of sight towards the back of the car. Both need a 10mm spanner, and access is tight. Oh, and to make the job that little bit nicer there are the sharp points of some self-tapping screws poking down through the fibreglass to scratch your hands to buggery. I can see why people recommend using M6 wing nuts to replace the bolts, and that's what I'll be doing.
You need to flex the dash top slightly and jiggle it around to lift it a couple of inches. You'll then see a board with three plug-in relays; the flasher is the left-most one.
I then needed to replace the left-hand indicator bulbs with LEDs, having already done the right-hand ones. The front one was an absolute b
d, because the air intake pipe makes it virtually impossible to get your hand in through the main grille as I did with the other side. I could grasp the metal collar of the indicator fitting through the "Ned" hole instead, but then my hand was so close that I didn't have any purchase and somebody had done it up VERY tight. A filter wrench inserted through the main grille couldn't quite close tightly enough to grip it. Ultimately I just had to push past the pain barrier and force my left arm past the intake hose to grasp the light fitting, but even then it took a lot of swearing to shift it and I was only able to get my arm through because I've got very skinny arms. After I'd got it off, I found myself shouting at the thing: "you fking fker!!" 
I haven't yet put the dash back on, but I don't anticipate that being too hard, especially with wing nuts (although can you believe that Halfrauds don't sell them??).
So I now have nice bright, crisp LED indicators all round, and they flash at the right speed!
So, to summarise, you need to order this flasher unit and these LEDs. Half-lifting the dash is enough to gain access to the flasher, and isn't too hard once you've found the nuts. Replace them with M6 wing nuts. The right-hand front indicator is easy, but the left-hand one might involve some swearing and skin-loss.
Have fun!
Well, the flasher unit I bought works perfectly! It also seems happy with a mixture of LEDs and incandescent bulbs, although now (after much shouting and swearing) I have LED indicators all round.
Lifting the left-hand side of the dash was enough to gain access to the flasher. You simply undo the two screws holding on the glove pocket, and it hinges back to reveal a hole. Right in front of you is some kind of fastener that I couldn't figure out what you'd use to undo - it seemed circular - but ignore that. You're looking for a horizontal bolt pointing towards the front of the car, and then you need to grope around to find a vertical bolt which is out of sight towards the back of the car. Both need a 10mm spanner, and access is tight. Oh, and to make the job that little bit nicer there are the sharp points of some self-tapping screws poking down through the fibreglass to scratch your hands to buggery. I can see why people recommend using M6 wing nuts to replace the bolts, and that's what I'll be doing.
You need to flex the dash top slightly and jiggle it around to lift it a couple of inches. You'll then see a board with three plug-in relays; the flasher is the left-most one.
I then needed to replace the left-hand indicator bulbs with LEDs, having already done the right-hand ones. The front one was an absolute b
d, because the air intake pipe makes it virtually impossible to get your hand in through the main grille as I did with the other side. I could grasp the metal collar of the indicator fitting through the "Ned" hole instead, but then my hand was so close that I didn't have any purchase and somebody had done it up VERY tight. A filter wrench inserted through the main grille couldn't quite close tightly enough to grip it. Ultimately I just had to push past the pain barrier and force my left arm past the intake hose to grasp the light fitting, but even then it took a lot of swearing to shift it and I was only able to get my arm through because I've got very skinny arms. After I'd got it off, I found myself shouting at the thing: "you fking fker!!" I haven't yet put the dash back on, but I don't anticipate that being too hard, especially with wing nuts (although can you believe that Halfrauds don't sell them??).
So I now have nice bright, crisp LED indicators all round, and they flash at the right speed!
So, to summarise, you need to order this flasher unit and these LEDs. Half-lifting the dash is enough to gain access to the flasher, and isn't too hard once you've found the nuts. Replace them with M6 wing nuts. The right-hand front indicator is easy, but the left-hand one might involve some swearing and skin-loss.
Have fun!
Edited by Dr Mike Oxgreen on Monday 20th April 15:46
I have noticed a slight peculiarity with the flasher unit, although it's not really a problem. When cancelling the indicators, the relay gives an extra couple of clicks after you've switched it off - although weirdly the lights and the dashboard tell-tale do NOT flash with the extra clicks. Odd!!
I haven't done the side repeaters, and will probably not bother because they're good enough as they are. I'm also sceptical of finding an LED that will physically fit within the light fitting. Would be interested to hear if anyone else does them successfully though.
I haven't done the side repeaters, and will probably not bother because they're good enough as they are. I'm also sceptical of finding an LED that will physically fit within the light fitting. Would be interested to hear if anyone else does them successfully though.
Edited by Dr Mike Oxgreen on Tuesday 21st April 06:19
You've got me wondering now. I hadn't noticed that being a problem, but I will have to check when I get home tonight.
Regarding the MOT, that's a tricky question. You certainly do need a working tell-tale if you can't see the indicator lights themselves, which can be audio or visual (but I suspect the ticking of the relay doesn't count as an audible warning). I'm pretty certain that lots of cars used to have indicator tell-tale lights that flashed together, so you might get away with it.
http://www.motuk.co.uk/manual_140.htm
The above page doesn't say anything about the tell-tale being correct in terms of which direction is flashing. The 'reason for failure' is 'tell-tale missing or inoperative'. So I reckon you'd be okay.
Regarding the MOT, that's a tricky question. You certainly do need a working tell-tale if you can't see the indicator lights themselves, which can be audio or visual (but I suspect the ticking of the relay doesn't count as an audible warning). I'm pretty certain that lots of cars used to have indicator tell-tale lights that flashed together, so you might get away with it.
http://www.motuk.co.uk/manual_140.htm
The above page doesn't say anything about the tell-tale being correct in terms of which direction is flashing. The 'reason for failure' is 'tell-tale missing or inoperative'. So I reckon you'd be okay.
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