Mapping Issue or 3rd party ECU?
Discussion
Ok, so this is a slight follow up to my post last year about my odd idle issues.
The car is running rich, it has been remapped and chipped, but is still running rich. It has a John Eales 218 cam and a Clive F Y Pipe - that is extent of the modifications.
I was not there when it was mapped, but it has had that white wire loop removed, which I believe makes it ignore the lambda sensors (because some cats have been removed)?
The other week, as I was taking her for a service, she was cutting out every time I pulled up at traffic lights etc. However, when I actually got there, it stopped and my mechanic couldn't reproduce it (this is somewhat annoying) and she hadn't done it prior to this for a few months. After the service, she hasn't done it, but on start up when warm the idle does drop really low before picking up again (this was happening before the service). The stepper motor was removed and all cleaned up, plugs changed (the old ones were black although the contacts themselves looked ok) etc.
My mechanic has run it through the Rover Gauge, we have changed the stepper, checked for air leaks all round the plenum and can find nothing wrong. It has also been suggested this might be because I don't use it enough, so am remedying that and will see how it goes but I have a feeling the issues will come back.
Is this a mapping issue? Can this be "fixed" with a better map on the Lucas ECU or would I just be better off putting in a 3rd party one? While I have been wavering on ownership, when I drive her and she works, it is superb and I have no desire to sell.
I have been considering some more extensive modifications - trumpets, larger afm, and maybe even a supercharger at some stage and I know a replacement ECU would bring out all of the potential of that but really, I'd just like it run right to begin with (and get a bit better fuel economy
).
The car is running rich, it has been remapped and chipped, but is still running rich. It has a John Eales 218 cam and a Clive F Y Pipe - that is extent of the modifications.
I was not there when it was mapped, but it has had that white wire loop removed, which I believe makes it ignore the lambda sensors (because some cats have been removed)?
The other week, as I was taking her for a service, she was cutting out every time I pulled up at traffic lights etc. However, when I actually got there, it stopped and my mechanic couldn't reproduce it (this is somewhat annoying) and she hadn't done it prior to this for a few months. After the service, she hasn't done it, but on start up when warm the idle does drop really low before picking up again (this was happening before the service). The stepper motor was removed and all cleaned up, plugs changed (the old ones were black although the contacts themselves looked ok) etc.
My mechanic has run it through the Rover Gauge, we have changed the stepper, checked for air leaks all round the plenum and can find nothing wrong. It has also been suggested this might be because I don't use it enough, so am remedying that and will see how it goes but I have a feeling the issues will come back.
Is this a mapping issue? Can this be "fixed" with a better map on the Lucas ECU or would I just be better off putting in a 3rd party one? While I have been wavering on ownership, when I drive her and she works, it is superb and I have no desire to sell.
I have been considering some more extensive modifications - trumpets, larger afm, and maybe even a supercharger at some stage and I know a replacement ECU would bring out all of the potential of that but really, I'd just like it run right to begin with (and get a bit better fuel economy
).It was mapped at Austec in Essex, but I haven't really been given much info on what was actually done. I know for definite that the lambda probes have been disabled/bypassed etc, so I would say it is likely using the green tune.
I was told that they had a LOT of problems getting it to idle correctly, and it only did so once they bypassed the lambda's.
Is there somewhere you would recommend me getting it remapped?
Thanks!
I was told that they had a LOT of problems getting it to idle correctly, and it only did so once they bypassed the lambda's.
Is there somewhere you would recommend me getting it remapped?
Thanks!
Ok, so just to confirm, this is the tune resistor -
And would it be these instructions to change the fuel map - http://www.pistonheads.com/GASSING/topic.asp?h=0&a... ?
Not exactly straightforwards, but will try. Am tempted to get it just properly mapped by a pro, since I am definitely an amateur!
Of course, I've made everything worse tonight by leaning on the roof in slightly the wrong way while washing it, and busted the stitching on both rows at the top. Only about 4 inches worth, but its pretty bad. I knew I needed a new roof soon anyways, but now I REALLY need a new roof.
What to do first..
And would it be these instructions to change the fuel map - http://www.pistonheads.com/GASSING/topic.asp?h=0&a... ?
Not exactly straightforwards, but will try.
Am tempted to get it just properly mapped by a pro, since I am definitely an amateur!Of course, I've made everything worse tonight by leaning on the roof in slightly the wrong way while washing it, and busted the stitching on both rows at the top. Only about 4 inches worth, but its pretty bad. I knew I needed a new roof soon anyways, but now I REALLY need a new roof.
What to do first..
)! Thanks all! 
I'll look at putting the resistor back in (glad I have a butane powered soldering iron), and if that doesn't improve things, I will take the car up to Kits and Classics.
I'm pretty sure the reason it was fiddled with initially was due to the fact it wasn't idling properly after the new cam and Y pipe were fitted, however I believe part of that was tracked down to a failing ignition amp. It was the early part of last year this started, so my memory might be faulty!
I'll look at putting the resistor back in (glad I have a butane powered soldering iron), and if that doesn't improve things, I will take the car up to Kits and Classics.
I'm pretty sure the reason it was fiddled with initially was due to the fact it wasn't idling properly after the new cam and Y pipe were fitted, however I believe part of that was tracked down to a failing ignition amp. It was the early part of last year this started, so my memory might be faulty!
I did check for air etc, and couldn't find anything. I would also expect that to happen all the time? It only cuts out when hot, not cold, and had not done it until Monday night, when I moved it about on the drive, since the service.
So, I went to put the tune resistor back when I got home, but I found this -
What is it? The dial thing is wired into where the tune resistor goes. Is it a work of genius, and will allow me to alter the resistance on the fly, or is it something else entirely?
So, I went to put the tune resistor back when I got home, but I found this -
What is it? The dial thing is wired into where the tune resistor goes. Is it a work of genius, and will allow me to alter the resistance on the fly, or is it something else entirely?
Hmm, thanks. My electrical testing abilities are limited so I just want to confirm - can I test the resistance while it is still attached to the car? Or should I disconnect it, set it, and then reattach? Or just disconnect the ECU and the battery?
Would better pics help?
Could it be something else?
Thanks!
Edit - After a quick Google, it definitely looks like a variable resistor. On a bigger version of the pic, I can see 3 wires coming out of it, which indicates it is a variable potentiometer, so I assume only 2 are actually connected, although I'd need to remove the tape to confirm.
Would better pics help?
Could it be something else?
Thanks!
Edit - After a quick Google, it definitely looks like a variable resistor. On a bigger version of the pic, I can see 3 wires coming out of it, which indicates it is a variable potentiometer, so I assume only 2 are actually connected, although I'd need to remove the tape to confirm.
Edited by Monsterlime on Wednesday 25th February 19:37
I was planning on putting some electrical tape over the actual nob, to stop it moving, once I had amended it, if it did the trick. Not long term/ideal I realise, but as I don't have a switched resistor array, I shall work with what I have.
Also, am I being dumb? I looked at my pic again, I can just unplug the blue plug (after unplugging the ECU) and test resistance from there, can't I?
Also, am I being dumb? I looked at my pic again, I can just unplug the blue plug (after unplugging the ECU) and test resistance from there, can't I?
The lambda's are still in, although I will triple check (with pics), hopefully tonight.
I'm on my 3rd stepper, so if it is that, it is rather frustrating. If, for example this wasn't solved by changing back to fuel map 5, where would be a good place to get a decent stepper from, or is it just a complete lottery?
All advice is very gratefully received as well.
I'm on my 3rd stepper, so if it is that, it is rather frustrating. If, for example this wasn't solved by changing back to fuel map 5, where would be a good place to get a decent stepper from, or is it just a complete lottery?
All advice is very gratefully received as well.
Edited by Monsterlime on Thursday 26th February 14:00
QBee - Thank you very very much! That is supremely generous and hugely appreciated. Beer/Cider/Wine is definitely owed!
When I got home tonight, I disconnected the ECU, removed the blue plug and set about amending the resistance. However, I found that the particular variable resistor that is on it, only goes up to 100ohms (product code seems to be 2096A). So I removed it, and put the old one back on, using a couple of connection blocks as a temporary connection, until I solder it back on this weekend (weather permitting) and I did confirm the resistance was right before plugging it all back in.
It is definitely now using Fuel Map 5 -
That screenshot was taken only a few seconds after startup. The next was taken about 5 minutes later -
The Long Term fuel trim never moved, it stayed at 0 on both odd and even. I forgot to get a screenshot of that. Doh.
I did log a few minutes of the data and have put it here - http://pastebin.com/LZKCu1HC
The idle did seem a bit lumpier, and especially so after I rev'd it a bit, but it never seemed like it would cut out or anything and did settle down.
I have also taken some pics of the 2 Lambda sensors -
I won't have time tonight to take it for a drive, but tomorrow I can, and will also do so over the weekend (although the weather is going to be rubbish
), and see how it behaves.
Again, many thanks for the all the advice. I hope progress is being made!
When I got home tonight, I disconnected the ECU, removed the blue plug and set about amending the resistance. However, I found that the particular variable resistor that is on it, only goes up to 100ohms (product code seems to be 2096A). So I removed it, and put the old one back on, using a couple of connection blocks as a temporary connection, until I solder it back on this weekend (weather permitting) and I did confirm the resistance was right before plugging it all back in.
It is definitely now using Fuel Map 5 -
That screenshot was taken only a few seconds after startup. The next was taken about 5 minutes later -
The Long Term fuel trim never moved, it stayed at 0 on both odd and even. I forgot to get a screenshot of that. Doh.
I did log a few minutes of the data and have put it here - http://pastebin.com/LZKCu1HC
The idle did seem a bit lumpier, and especially so after I rev'd it a bit, but it never seemed like it would cut out or anything and did settle down.
I have also taken some pics of the 2 Lambda sensors -
I won't have time tonight to take it for a drive, but tomorrow I can, and will also do so over the weekend (although the weather is going to be rubbish
), and see how it behaves.Again, many thanks for the all the advice. I hope progress is being made!
I should clarify - I did let it idle for about 5 minutes before touching the accelerator. I only started logging a few minutes after it had been running, although now reading back, I possibly should have left it longer above a certain engine temp. I honestly can't say if I did that or not, I was too busy taking pics of the lambda's etc. Doh.
I shall reset it tomorrow and pay attention to what I am doing!
I shall reset it tomorrow and pay attention to what I am doing!
I see, thanks. I did suspect that bit looked wrong. Some clueless questions coming -
How do I get the probes out? Are they screw in/out jobs? I've nosed through the bible and can't find any reference as to how they are removed.
Second, I did see in the bible that there are some tests you can do on the lambda's, for resistance/voltage, via the ECU plug. Are they a good place to start? There was also a dire warning about attempting them, is the plug really that fragile?
Thanks!
How do I get the probes out? Are they screw in/out jobs? I've nosed through the bible and can't find any reference as to how they are removed.
Second, I did see in the bible that there are some tests you can do on the lambda's, for resistance/voltage, via the ECU plug. Are they a good place to start? There was also a dire warning about attempting them, is the plug really that fragile?
Thanks!
I have asked a friend if he has a suitable tool (I certainly don't). I did find these on Ebay - http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/LASER-4984-Difficult-Acc... However, they explicitly exclude lambda sensors, but I can't see why.
Could a leak between the manifold and the block cause the lack of voltage? Although I would have thought it would have seen some unless it just wasn't connected at all!
Could a leak between the manifold and the block cause the lack of voltage? Although I would have thought it would have seen some unless it just wasn't connected at all!
Ok, so I have reset the ECU again, and left it running.
While it did so, I had a proper poke around the engine bay, looking for any leaks etc and I found none. I checked all the spark plugs (before I started her), and they all seemed to be in fine as well.
However, we have screenshots. These are after I restarted Rover Gauge because it had stopped changing the trim on the even Lambda, but then I realised afterwards this was because it had thrown a fault code. Before I restarted the Rover Gauge, the Short Term trim on the even Lambda was 100%, but it never registered anything on Long Term before or after. The screenshots are after about 20 minutes or so of idling, and the temp had been above 90C for around 5 minutes.
Idle Short Term -
Idle Long Term -
Fault Codes -
And finally, something rather worrying I thought. I gave it a bit of a rev after all of the above, but then this happened with the Long Term Trim -
Also! There were 2 very long black marks coming from the exhaust (before it was revved) -
So, I assume at this point, badness? Are both lambda's dodgy or is this expected when one has failed?
While it did so, I had a proper poke around the engine bay, looking for any leaks etc and I found none. I checked all the spark plugs (before I started her), and they all seemed to be in fine as well.
However, we have screenshots. These are after I restarted Rover Gauge because it had stopped changing the trim on the even Lambda, but then I realised afterwards this was because it had thrown a fault code. Before I restarted the Rover Gauge, the Short Term trim on the even Lambda was 100%, but it never registered anything on Long Term before or after. The screenshots are after about 20 minutes or so of idling, and the temp had been above 90C for around 5 minutes.
Idle Short Term -
Idle Long Term -
Fault Codes -
And finally, something rather worrying I thought. I gave it a bit of a rev after all of the above, but then this happened with the Long Term Trim -
Also! There were 2 very long black marks coming from the exhaust (before it was revved) -
So, I assume at this point, badness? Are both lambda's dodgy or is this expected when one has failed?
I shall give this a proper read today, thanks. The bible mentions pulling the cover off the ECU plug and testing from there as well, but I did look at that yesterday and couldn't see how I could remove it.
Depends on what you mean by cycling. The odd lambda (top) does change on the short term trim, but never actually goes into the negative, it just stays in the positive. It definitely changes when you rev the car, I could see it going up and down etc.
While I am not intending on driving it at the moment, from the looks of it, if needed to move it, put it back to Fuel Map 1 would seem like the right way to go?
Depends on what you mean by cycling. The odd lambda (top) does change on the short term trim, but never actually goes into the negative, it just stays in the positive. It definitely changes when you rev the car, I could see it going up and down etc.
While I am not intending on driving it at the moment, from the looks of it, if needed to move it, put it back to Fuel Map 1 would seem like the right way to go?
Right, ok, thanks. Will do so, but will be tomorrow now due to weather and family plans. Should I reset the ECU first or just let it idle as is?
The AFM is a lot simpler to get at/replace than the Lambda's, so much closer to my skill and comfort level! lol
What I don't really understand, is why none of this had been flagged to me already. I was told they had problems getting it to run right, and as you say, this is clearly why but why didn't they realise there were hardware issues or tell me I would need to get it seen to?
The AFM is a lot simpler to get at/replace than the Lambda's, so much closer to my skill and comfort level! lol
What I don't really understand, is why none of this had been flagged to me already. I was told they had problems getting it to run right, and as you say, this is clearly why but why didn't they realise there were hardware issues or tell me I would need to get it seen to?
QBee - That is supremely generous, and really rather appreciated! I shall confirm today, once I have completed the tests!
blitzracing - Should also be said I am deeply appreciative of all your assistance as well. Needless to say, beer etc is definitely owed to both of you!
I have a 450, so I assume my voltages should be around 1.65-1.70? My idle is around 900ish, and does drop into the 800's, but should I adjust it down?
blitzracing - Should also be said I am deeply appreciative of all your assistance as well. Needless to say, beer etc is definitely owed to both of you!
I have a 450, so I assume my voltages should be around 1.65-1.70? My idle is around 900ish, and does drop into the 800's, but should I adjust it down?
Ok, so, I am really rather confused. To me, it looks like the AFM is fine?
Also, after reading the thread that TV8 linked, I tried the EasyStart leak test, and it didn't seem to have any effect. Although it is very windy, so I may have to try that one again on a calmer day.
However, the reason I am really confused is that this time, both Lambda's were working -
Some revving -
After a bit more revving -
Basically, both times I revved on the drive, I could see both Lambda's cycling. The long term trim didn't change though. I did also clear the fault code from within RG.
And this is after I took it for a quick spin to see if it carried on "working" -
I also logged the entire drive and have uploaded it here - http://pastebin.com/phMtEGtn Although I think it missed a couple of minutes because the laptop went to sleep (I forgot to amend the power settings before I set off).
I did look to see if I could get some paper clips into the lambda's to measure their voltage, but it all seemed sealed with glue, so I didn't think I'd be able to get them in. However, when I did look quite closely at them, on both sets, the wires right near the connection point into the sensor are quite frayed/damaged.
The car drove and idled fine while driving and stopped. Plus, when I restarted it shortly after the drive, the rev's did not do the normal of go high, drop to like it might stall and settle, they just stayed level.
Looking at the raw numbers in the log, it still looks to me like the even lambda definitely has a problem as it is logging 255 a lot, but is definitely doing something at other times which it hadn't in my other logging sessions.
So, in conclusion - I am deeply confused.
QBee - Not sure you should send me the AFM at the moment, as it doesn't look to be a problem, but I do stand to be corrected. Thanks
Also, after reading the thread that TV8 linked, I tried the EasyStart leak test, and it didn't seem to have any effect. Although it is very windy, so I may have to try that one again on a calmer day.
However, the reason I am really confused is that this time, both Lambda's were working -
Some revving -
After a bit more revving -
Basically, both times I revved on the drive, I could see both Lambda's cycling. The long term trim didn't change though. I did also clear the fault code from within RG.
And this is after I took it for a quick spin to see if it carried on "working" -
I also logged the entire drive and have uploaded it here - http://pastebin.com/phMtEGtn Although I think it missed a couple of minutes because the laptop went to sleep (I forgot to amend the power settings before I set off).
I did look to see if I could get some paper clips into the lambda's to measure their voltage, but it all seemed sealed with glue, so I didn't think I'd be able to get them in. However, when I did look quite closely at them, on both sets, the wires right near the connection point into the sensor are quite frayed/damaged.
The car drove and idled fine while driving and stopped. Plus, when I restarted it shortly after the drive, the rev's did not do the normal of go high, drop to like it might stall and settle, they just stayed level.
Looking at the raw numbers in the log, it still looks to me like the even lambda definitely has a problem as it is logging 255 a lot, but is definitely doing something at other times which it hadn't in my other logging sessions.
So, in conclusion - I am deeply confused.
QBee - Not sure you should send me the AFM at the moment, as it doesn't look to be a problem, but I do stand to be corrected. Thanks
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