Running lean, the story so far...

[gmw9666]

Howdy all.....I don't think I've posted on the Chim page since getting my September 1993 430 a little while back......so hi :-)



Been doing a bit of posting on the FB page so thought I'd share a problem I've got with this group

The 430 was off the road for about 4+ years before I bought it......was in pieces when I bought it as the previous owner had passed away.

To cut a long story short, I've got her back running, serviced, fluids blah and she passed her MOT with zero advisories a week or so ago

So my first big run was down to the Neil Garner event at the weekend.......she behaved without fault, great temps, drove really well with no hesitation or shunting..........just smooth power delivery

I thought whilst I was at the NG event I'd get her on the rollers to see what's what.....results below





At first I was really pleased with the results, after all the 430's only did 280 from the factory so thought all was well.........I was then told she was running really quite lean as can be seen in the Air / Fuel ratio and the fuelling line looks like a drunk spider walked across the page vs a horizontal ish line

The chaps said the power and torque lines look really quite strong given they were having to lift off the throttle. So net net, if I can sort the fuelling it looks very likely to bump my power (which is nice :-)

Was advised it could be the pump or the regulator so these were the first things I checked. The pump and reg seem to be behaving, my pressure results are = Start engine and pull vac off = 38psi, reconnect vac = 29.5psi, turn engine off = 29psi, after 1 min 27 psi, after 2 mins goes up to 28 then every min there after 30psi, 31, 31, 32, 32 etc and after 10 mins its 35psi so I'm pretty sure my lean running is neither of these hey

When I got the car I did check the pump out and it is getting 12.5v at the pump and I have changed the fuel filter for a new correct one and also checked the fuel lines for any issues......all checked out

Before the previous owner passed away he'd had the injectors cleaned (see below) so I know they are ok



So.....any last things I need to be testing that's obvious? Air Flow Meter?.........Lambda's?

Edited by gmw9666 on Thursday 1st October 09:20

[gmw9666]

Some of the other things I've noticed are =

Borrowed another 430 ecu and it gave a surprising result. Car wouldn't start! I could hear the fuel pump would it just cranked and cranked with zero thought about starting. I put my ecu back on and it starts straight away.

And on the fuel pump topic when turning the key the pump is "on".....ie it runs constantly vs just priming for 3 secs or so (assuming down to the old Gemini alarm which has been ripped out by previous owner and a random central locking unit (Snooper) being installed......which I've disconnected as with it connected I could not turn the car off with the key......remove the key and car kept running

I've also noticed that pin 10 on the ecu clip is missing, there is no connector and when I peeled the rubber boot you can clearly see a bare wire and tape where something's been spliced in



So took the ecu clip apart to see what is spliced. Well pin 27 (signal ground) is spliced into both 23 and 24 which are the 2 lambda sensors (the blue wires in the above pic)

Edited by gmw9666 on Thursday 1st October 09:31

[gmw9666]

Cheers chaps, some good advice.

Just by driving I'd say there is no issues, runs great so perhaps a second opinion / dyno is indeed a good option

Will post up any changes / developments as I go :-)

[gmw9666]

davep said:

Pin 10 is part of the control circuit for the MIL lamp, so MIL lamp in dash will not work.

Re the Lambda sensor signal lines being tied to earth what tune resistor are you using?

Edited by davep on Thursday 1st October 21:01

this one

Edited by gmw9666 on Friday 2nd October 13:58

[gmw9666]

davep said:

That's an interesting one: you have a White 3900 Ohm tune resistor therefore Map 5 and closed loop selected, but with your Lambdas tied to 0 Vdc. I assume your engine has been decatted, if so perhaps try a Green 470 ohm tune resistor and Map 2 with open loop.

nope, still got the cats in from what I can tell, no cut / weld marks or anything

[gmw9666]

As the car is in the garage having its exhaust replaced (just the back bit) I can confirm the main cat is definitely still in (probing the hole)

And i'll be able to plug in a loaned ECUMate tomorrow to see what's what

[gmw9666]

Well popped and viewed the car this AM.....wasn't able to start her as the diff is out having new bushes so the below is what we could tell just on the ignition.

Please note the speed sender is on the bench with the diff hence why its flagged as an error lol

So the only error reading is low fuel pressure.....now bearing in mind the pressures I took previously off a plumbed in fuel pressure gauge looked spot on.....COULD......the low pressure be the pump being on the way out?......and also why its running continuously vs getting to pressure then cutting off?

[gmw9666]

Thought I'd update on things

Whilst the car was in David Gerald they have a look at my flying loom area and said its not standard and looks like Mr Dodgy Alarm man has being in this area......so cant hit the rollers until my wiring is back to standard

So now I'm going to have to teach myself wiring.....should be fun lol

So......starter for 10.......the back of the ECU and Fuel Pump Relays have the following wires, I've reference the bible as well as pages from Blitz's page (ta :-)

ECU Relay
30 = Brown
86 = Black (but has some tape close to the relay and turns into a thin brown wire)
87 (middle one) = Brown / Orange rings + another Brown / Orange rings
87 (side one) = Brown / Orange stripe
85 = Blue / Red

Blue Fuel Pump Relay
30 = Green / Brown
86 = White / Slate or Grey stripe + White / Purple stripe
87 (middle one) = White / Orange rings + another White / Orange rings
87 (side one) = White / Purple rings + White / Grey stripe
85 = Blue / Purple stripe


Also knowing the pump is running from the get go.......a Red / Yellow wire is spliced into the Red wire on the ignition.......this wire can be found also on the central locking unit connector under the dash and behind fuse 5 on the fuse board in a yellow block

anything look odd?

[gmw9666]

Bit more peeling back to see what's what

The brown wires seem to be soldered and twisted together

Certainly been played with grrrr

ooooh and even if I take the 2 fuses on the flying fuse thing on the right the ignition / fuel pump STILL works

Edited by gmw9666 on Thursday 8th October 07:50

[gmw9666]

last update I forgot to add yesterday

When I turn the ignition key........you can hear / feel the ECU relay click.........then 3 seconds later you can hear / feel the fuel pump relay click almost like its suppose to after 3 secs.......i.e. shut off at that point but despite the relay clicking it still continues

[gmw9666]

thanks Dave

1st point....why don't you live nearer? lol

On a serious note....thanks for the above, I do have the diagram and have been comparing

Your 4 steps are helpful as I'm stuck at step 1, see below

Prior to ignition a battery voltage of ~+12 Vdc (Brown) is applied to the Fuel Pump Relay (COM pin 30) =YES I HAVE THIS, the Main Relay (COM pin 30 and Coil pin 86) =YES I HAVE THIS, and ECU +ve supply (pin 15) =YES I HAVE THIS where it maintains battery backed memory and error code values.

Where it gets odd......I Also checked the other main / fuel relay pins and found on the main relay the Blue / Red wire (35) is also getting 12+v…….if I am correct this goes to Pin 12 on the ECU.....when checking pin 12 on the ECU, no reading 0v so I'm assuming the voltage is coming from the relay to this vs from the ECU which is suppose to ground pin 12 to energies per step 4

Edited by gmw9666 on Thursday 8th October 16:33

[gmw9666]

Well chatting to Dave the alarm man I've clearly got some funky immobilizer wiring going on......so may need to dip my hand in my pocket to get the wiring back to stock

on another topic, my RoverGauge cable arrived (thanks Mark) so plugged it in at lunch and these are my readings. Took a couple of attempts of trying a different USB port on my old laptop before I got a "GREEN" communication link.....but go there in the end.

I took a pic of the top 2 photos are the car was cycling between the 2.....as revs ever so slightly moved

Good news.........no fault highlighted

Clearly this is just at idle, not taken for a drive / log yet

So how does it look?.....

[gmw9666]

and now with changing the MAF readings to direct and lambda to long term

[gmw9666]

davep said:

Apart from your fuel map and main fuel scaler/multiplier being for a bog standard LR 3.9 tune everything looks fine. Perhaps a chip with a TVR 4.3 cat map and tune will rid the car of the running lean problem. See:

http://www.stevesprint.com/remap-14cux/LR-TVR-sett...

Try screenshots (prt sc key) for clearer pics of RoverGauge.

The ECU does say "4.3 Cat" and the screen shot says "Tune R2967" which per your link is correct for this car?

Edited by gmw9666 on Friday 9th October 14:34

[gmw9666]

davep said:

It may state that on the case or the chip but the ECU's program PROM is showing it has a Map 5 and multiplier for a 3.9 Land Rover. If you could download the PROM contents using RoverGauge and send them to me I'll confirm that either way for you.

well that would explain the fuelling

also noticed steve doesn't have a 4.3 cat on his his........BV yes but not a normal 4.3

[gmw9666]

Thought I'd provide a quick update...

Have sorted the fuel pump running constantly, Dave at HF Solutions popped round and within an hour had fixed the problem. A previous alarm cowboy or perhaps more than one at different times had cut out the white fuel pump relay wire by the CLU box under the dash, to fix this bodge they'd cut into the inertia switch live so it was constantly live vs being switched. All wires now back to normal phew and may I say for a reasonable price.

So switching gears I thought I would take the old girl out for a spin to play with my rovergauge now the fuel pump issue is fixed

Main observation is the speed is zero.....always! I'm sure that's not right

Here is a shot fresh out the garage so cold



And still showing no errors



And this is a shot trundling down the road showing zero speed?



And this is after a good 60 min run



And lastly a 3rd gear WOT video all within the speed limit

I will be shooting the passenger for taking these bad pics lol

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Uc_7Jc_43WI&fe...

I did take a log and I think I downloaded it correctly but no idea what it means lol

[gmw9666]

ChimpOnGas said:

Hi Glen, sounds like you're making progress

I did say that fuel pump running all the time was wrong when we had our Facebook chats.

I have to say you're more determined than I ever would have been with that TVR of yours, personally I would have just put the car on the Canems system and have done with it

Alarm aside a decent new aftermarket engine management system and loom would solve all your running problems in a stroke, and give you better drivability, performance economy & reliability too

Get David at HF solutions to pop a new updated Meta security system on and the car will drive better and be way more reliable than when it was new.

Good luck with it, Dave.

Technically there is no nothing wrong with the car now lol she's all fixed, drives great, no shunting, drives smooth, heaps of power and I mean heaps.........just want to ensure the old girl is tip top and the lean running showing at the Neil Garner event was a RR issue as others had vs my car.

Fun fun fun :-)

[gmw9666]

blitzracing said:

Im assuming the speedo itself is working- this means the rear sensor is working, but there is a box of tricks under the dash called the speedo calibration unit. This has the job of converting the signal from the sensor into something the ECU can understand- although its pretty crude. It simply measures the signal and when it reaches around 3mph it puts a fixed 30-50 mph signal into the ECU- so RoverGauge should show a fixed speed above 3mph. It sounds like the calibration unit is either faulty or unplugged as the ECU is missing its speed signal. The effect is the idle speed will be low between gears and more of a tendency to lock the wheels on down change, as the speed signal lifts the idle by a few hundred RPM to smooth things out.

yup, speedo works so will have a look for this calibration unit, my dash top is not bolted down yet so can remove easily.....what does it look like?

Edited by gmw9666 on Tuesday 20th October 15:44

[gmw9666]

blitzracing said:

Its a black plastic box about 3" x 2" x 1", and may have speedo calibration unit on it. Its tucked in the main loom loosely near the instruments on the end of a single plug connector

ok, will take a look........ps - I sent you some data from my RG log ;-)

[gmw9666]

no black box I can see

the back of the speed has the blubs on either side and in the middle is a small black connector with 3 wires coming out going into the main loom

its a September 1993 car so would it have it located elsewhere???

Edited by gmw9666 on Tuesday 20th October 16:40