Billy Bilsteins

[ChimpOnGas]

So I've just pulled the trigger on a full set of Bilstens to replace my Gaz Gold Pros which to be honest have served me very well, but it's time for a change and I must be getting old because ride quality is becoming my new TVR obsession. My thinking is Bilstien is an extremely well respected company chosen by the big car makers like BMW & Porsche, while the the units I've ordered don't offer adjustable damping I figure if they're specified correctly in the first place I shouldn't need to keep adjusting them anyway.

Bilstein's use of rubber bushes instead of the Gaz Gold Pro rose joints should alone give ride quality benefits, if the damping is well chosen to match the spring rates and 'Ol Gaasbag's' unique weight bias I'm hoping I'll get what I want. I've spent quite a bit of time discussing my requirements with the former chief chassis engineer for TVR Ben Lang, he was responsible for the Tuscan 2 and Sagaris projects and now works for Ariel having developed the well respected Atom.

Ben's knowledge, experience and reputation are all without question, so armed with detail on how 'Ol Gasbag' differs from a standard Chimaera he did some calculations and recommended what he calls his 'Tuscan S' set up. My LPG conversion adds 45kg rear axle weight, Ben's 'Tuscan S' option apparently works really well on the Cerbera as a sport kit, Ben explained the Cerbera has significantly more rear axle weight than Tuscan or Chimaera so suggested with the right valving the results will be perfect on 'Ol Gasbag'.

The final order ended up looking like this:

2 x Tuscan S Front Damper
2 x Griff/Chim Special Rear Damper (D0351 Special- Retune setting F4-BE5-B967-T1)
2 x Griff/Chim Front Spring
2 x Tuscan Sport Rear Spring
4 x Damper Bush - Small
4 x Damper Bush - Large

Fingers crossed this little lot will retain my great handling but add refinement to the ride quality over poor road surfaces? Watch this space and hopefully in a couple of weeks I'll be in a position to report back on how Ben's special bespoke Bilstien set up performs.

Edited by ChimpOnGas on Saturday 12th November 19:07

[ChimpOnGas]

ClassiChimi said:

so these won't be ride height adjustable, not that that matters much.?

The ride height on my new Bilsteins can be adjusted, there are grooves cut in the bodies for a circlip, the damper settings are fixed but designed to work with the springs Ben chose and the car's axle weight.

The Bilsteins offered by Ben are mono-tube/upside-down gas pressure technology dampers and the result of all the development he did on the Tuscan 2 and Segaris models, apparently they are big step on the Bilsteins TVR fitted to Chimaeras from the early nineties right up to the end of production. Ben started with TVR as Chimaera production ended and when referring to his Bilstein package he uses the term "Mk4" which suggests they are the end result of four development evolutions.

From this Mk4 base point Ben uses quality Eibach springs which along with the valving is all specified based on customer requirements and vehicle specification, essentially you end up with a bespoke set up of the TVR/Bilstein developed final evolution suspension. Personally I don't have an issue with the lack of adjustability as my experience with the Gaz Gold Pros was once I'd dialled them in they were best left alone as, further fiddling simply became a pointless and frustrating exercise of chasing the impossible dream hoping one more or less click would give me the ride quality I sought.

My new Billtein package uses steel bodied dampers so will be heavier than the GGPs, as already stated while the ride height is adjustable (essential)the damping rates are not, they also use old school rubber for the bushes instead of race car inspired rose joints. In summary I've just spent a tidy sum on heavier suspension with squishy rubber bushes and no damping adjustment, this all sounds like a big step backwards but I have strong evidence there's a lot more to it than this.

Bilstein are a massive German OEM suspension company and Ben knows what works on TVRs because he and the German Bilstien engineers did a huge amount of development work during the early 2000's, the handling of the Sagaris in particular was met with universal praise by the motoring press at the time with the Tuscan 2 also massively improved from the Tuscan 1 which was renowned for twitchy challenging handling.

It seems at the time TVR were determined to shake off any question marks over the handling of their cars, the recruitment of a properly qualified suspension & chassis engineer and the direct involvement of the visiting German Bilstein engineers seems like it did the trick, and while I'm under no illusions the Chimaera handling presents challenges that can't just be fixed with a set of better specified coil overs I hopefully can take advantage of some of this development work and will feel the benefit?

Well that's my current thinking anyway and pretty much covers my rational for choosing Ben and the Bilstein product, admittedly it's not a sexy choice like a set of super adjustable track focused Nitrons or Intrax units but as I don't do track days and my objective is to deliver great handing Chimaera with a compliant (UK road friendly) ride at a realistic budget using quality components.... I'd like to think I've made the right choice?

The truth is... only time will tell

Edited by ChimpOnGas on Sunday 13th November 07:33

[ChimpOnGas]

Here's what got me thinking and had me researching the return to Bilsteins....

On returning from this year's tour of France I noticed one of my rear Gaz Gold Pros had blown its seals, this isn't a criticism of the Gaz product as I'd given them some serious abuse over an extended period that included a number of violent bottoming out episodes before I conceded 12 months ago they needed heavier springs to cope with the extra 45kg 'Ol Gabag' carries just behind her rear axle.

Fitting 400lb springs solved that problem but I suspect the writing was on the wall for the GGPs as they'd already suffered from the violent bottoming out episodes, while my Gaz Gold Pros were being rebuilt and just to keep the car mobile I refitted my scabby ancient original Bilsteins. To be honest I was expecting the car to be virtually undrivable like this, after all if the car bottomed out on the original GGP fitted with 10% heavier springs than my original Billies then surely I wouldn't even get to the next village without smashing into their bump stops?

Sounds logical right

Wrong!

Indeed how wrong was I... first of all I was absolutely amazed by how compliant the ride was with the ancient Billies, with 'Ol Gasbag's' extra 45kg in the boot understandably the car sat low at the rear but this was just the result of these original Billies not being ride height adjustable. Miraculously in spite of the soft Billy spring rates and the low rear ride height they never once bottomed out .

Take a look at the totally illogical but real world facts:

• Gaz Gold Pros fitted with 325lb rear springs - Car bottoms out

• Gaz Gold Pros fitted with 400lb rear springs - Bottoming out finally solved

• Ancient scabby old Bilsteins with no ride height adjustment running soft 290lb springs - Car sits low but rides incredibly well and amazingly completely refuses to bottom out!!!

How is this even possible? It's totally illogical, unless that it there's something about the damping on the Billsteins that means they can function properly without the need fit very heavy spring rates that the GGPs clearly demanded

This got me thinking, what if I could have the lovely Billy ride but add the GGP adjustable ride height advantage to my old Bilstein units? The more I thought about it the more I liked the idea, so I got in touch with Ben who offered to refurbish by old Billies and machine the circlip grooves in their damper bodies to give me the ride height correction I need.

We also spoke at length about the the extra 45kg weight 'Ol Gasbag' carries behind her rear axle, my surprise positive but confusing experience with my original Billies and my passionate desire to have a TVR that would cope with the scared and pot holed UK surfaces without banging and crashing about like an old cart. First of all Ben didn't view my extra 45kg as much additional weight at all, he then went on to explain the development work that went into his Mk4 Billies and how much better they are when compared with the Billies TVR originally fitted to the Chimaera. Ben went on to talk about how the Cerbera carries substantially more rear axle weight than the Chimaera and Tuscan models and how well his Mk 2 Tuscan "S" set up works on the Cerbera, Ben therefore felt it would be ideal for 'Ol Gasbag' too.

I reminded him I was actually really impressed and surprised by my originals and he just said a new set of his Mk4s would be even better especially if he was free to select the spring rates and valving to suit my car. Ben presented me with a number of options including refurbishing my original Billies, in the end going all new only worked our a couple of hundred quid more than all the work my old units would need to bring them up to Mk4 spec. I figured £50 more per unit to go brand new was well worth it so that's the option I took, the suspension will not only be cosmetically perfect but I also get the Tuscan 2 "S" front dampers rather than a rebuild of my original Chimaera spec originals.

My surprise experiences with my ancient old original Bilsteins convinced me there's something more sophisticated going on with the damping when compared with the Gaz units. To be honest the GGPs have been fine but I've always felt the damper settings only function properly in a small window of load and needed springs heavier than ideal for UK roads to operate correctly within that small window. I found 13 clicks worked best with the 325lb rear springs and 12 clicks when I switched to the heavier 400lb springs, one click difference is nothing really and with all the other damper settings either way too soft or way to hard I ended up concluding all that adjustability offered by the GGPs was pretty pointless. Add to this the use of rose joints in favour of road friendly rubber bushes used on the Billies and you end up with suspension that I feel may really more suited to track days than everyday street use?

To be fair to Gaz they are marketing their product to customers who are looking for a more track focussed set up, my mistake was probably to be seduced by the sexy looking rose jointed super adjustable GGPs without really thinking if they were 100% right for me. I don't track my TVR, I want taut handling but also need the car to offer a nice compliant ride on the road, hopefully Ben's specially valved and sprung (to my car) rubber bushed OEM quality Mk4 Bilsteins will deliver just that?

Fingers crossed I'll get exactly what I want, all the evidence suggests I will but suspension is such a subjective thing, one man's compliant is another man's harsh so it won't be until I've fitted my new Billies and spent some time on our lovely UK roads that I'll know for sure if I've made the right choice.

Edited by ChimpOnGas on Sunday 13th November 09:46

[ChimpOnGas]

I contacted Ben directly and ended up (hopefully for all the right reasons) buying his all new Mk4 Tuscan 2 "S" package specially valved and sprung to my car.

This bespoke Bilstein package comes with heavy steel bodied dampers that offer no damping adjustment & unfashionable rubber bushes rather than sexy track focussed rose joints, they also cost me more money than a brand new set of the far lighter & fully adjustable Gaz Gold Pros.

Bonkers right

Maybe not

[ChimpOnGas]

ChimpOnGas said:

I contacted Ben directly and ended up (hopefully for all the right reasons) buying his all new Mk4 Tuscan 2 "S" package specially valved and sprung to my car.

This bespoke Bilstein package comes with heavy steel bodied dampers that offer no damping adjustment & unfashionable rubber bushes rather than sexy track focussed rose joints, they also cost me more money than a brand new set of the far lighter & fully adjustable Gaz Gold Pros.

Bonkers right

Maybe not

ClassiChimi said:

Have you mentioned the Brembo brakes, possible extra unstrung weight

Yes mate, he just said his Mk4 Billies will cope fine, TBH the I never felt any issues with the Brembos on my GGPs either.

I have a feeling the old unsprung weight thing isn't something we need worry about too much, Ben didn't even feel the extra 45kg just behind my rear axle line was a big issue

[ChimpOnGas]

My new Billies were £996.24 fully assembled, Ben will make sure the ride height is set so I can just bolt them to the car, I've requested some nose down rake as I've found the car is more stable at speed like this.

Price wise my Mk4 Bilsteins (Tuscan 2 "S" spec) sit between Gaz Gold Pros and Nitrons, for the money their nearest competitor would be Gaz Monos. My research points towards the Gaz Monos beng well regarded but leaning more towards the guy who enjoys his track days, the Bilsteins being a good option for someone who mostly uses their car on the road and who prioritises a compliant road friendly ride.

Chimaera owners have the following suspension options:

• Protech: £560.00 + postage (Protech)

• Gaz Gold Pro: £658.80 + postage (ACT)

• Gaz Monotubes: £958.80 + postage (ACT)

• Mk4 Bilsteins Tuscan 2 "S" spec: £996.24 including postage (Ben Lang)

• Nitrons: £1320.00 + postage (Powers Performance)

• Intrax 1K2 or RSA: various options all being more money than Nitrons

• Ohlins: Even more money than Intrax

All the above use race car type rose joints except the Bilsteins, the Billies fly in the face of fashion by using traditional rubber bushes which I'm hoping will (in part) contribute to my chosen suspension being the more road friendly package compared with all the other more track focussed options?

But at this stage it's really all speculation, and that's the problem, ideally I would have loved to back to back compare all the above options but that's just not practical. So you are left reading reviews on these pages which given everyone's expectations are different and people are always inclined to say what they have is the best it all becomes a bit meaningless.

So I am left making an upfront £1,000 commitment to buy what I hope will suit my needs and expectations, the truth is at this stage my Bilstein choice is nothing more than an expensive gamble. Hopefully I'll have them fitted in a couple of weeks and will report back here on how they perform and I promise to be 100% honest when I present my findings.

Edited by ChimpOnGas on Monday 14th November 07:51

[ChimpOnGas]

andy43 said:

The way Ben told me was TVR used rebuildable yellow Bilsteins through the 90's, then went to a poorer quality green shock which wasn't rebuildable, and also wasn't made by Bilstein - but I may be wrong on manufacturer.
TVR then spent some serious money, I think around 2004/5 ish, and got Bilstein back in for a lot of testing and revising, going to yellow Billies again with retuning to the specs across the TVR range.
If you look back at the reviews of the then-new-to-market Tuscan II they universally praise the handling as being better than previous models, even suggesting the revised car didn't actually want to kill you to death.
http://www.evo.co.uk/tvr/tuscan/6296/tvr-tuscan-2
http://www.autoexpress.co.uk/car-reviews/16055/tvr...

Nice summary Andy

It's also nice to see there are plenty of Chimaera owners who are very happy with Ben's Mk4 Bilsteins

andy43 said:

The Griff/Chim bendy chassis with cobbled together part-Sierra suspension won't match the above, but every little helps

My feelings exactly



From Ben Lang - Former Chief Chassis Engineer - TVR Design & Development.

In late 2004, following a nine year gap the decision was taken to reinstate Bilstein as OE damper supplier for all TVR models. Bilstein had traditionally supplied units for Griffith and Chimaera, but since 1995 the bulk of production units had been supplied by HBE. This encompassed Cerbera, Tuscan, Tamora and T350 models.

The motivation for the change was that Bilstein could offer better quality and more durable units backed up by assistance and input in the development of ride and handling. The first car to benefit from this was the Sagaris, followed in the summer of 2005 by the Tuscan 2 and Tuscan convertible. The level of development carried out on these cars far exceeded what had been carried out on previous models. The positive results achieved are evident in some of the road tests published in the motoring press. One of the main improvements, especially noticeable on Tuscan models, is the improvement in ride quality.

In addition to the development of the OE units, TVR was also obliged to develop spares units for older models originally equiped with HBE dampers, without any change of springs or anti-roll bars. Again, a marked improvement in ride and handling quality was experienced when compared with the original parts.

[ChimpOnGas]

SILICONEKID345HP said:

Dave have you considered air suspension ??

Yes I looked into air suspension at length, the best option seemed to be the ShockWave range from Ridetech in the states.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OJwegsAeMWQ

The first thing you have to understand is the air bag used on air suspension is just a replacement for the steel spring, the damper has the same function and uses the same technology. As such you are into the same process of trying to select a quality damper that's well matched to my TVR's axle weight and the chosen spring rate, this is not a simple task. Also there's absolutely no evidence Ridetech from the States make a better quality damper than the mighty German Bilstein suspension company, quite the opposite in fact.

From what I can tell the only real advantage of air suspension is ease of ride height adjustment, and if you want to enjoy this advantage on the move you'll need a compressor. First off I don't need instant ride height adjustment on the fly, like the tuning of the damping once the ride height is set on my Chimaera that's where it'll stay.

Finally you may make the assumption air suspension would give a better ride than a steel coil spring, but the truth is this isn't necessarily the case, indeed my research indicates air bags can actually give a harsh and fidgety ride and so demand the damper must work harder.

In summary replacing a steel coil spring with air is not necessarily the path to a better more compliant ride, the ShockWave product from Ridetech uses rose joints that I want to get away from and I don't want to have to send my suspension to the States when the dampers need rebuilding. I very much doubt their dampers are better than those from Bilstein and I don't need ride height adjustment on the fly either, fitting a compressor would be tricky on a Chimaera and anyway it just adds weight and complexity for no real advantage.

Finally if I chose the Ridetech ShockWaves I would be starting a process of development to get them right with no real guarantee of success, I'm not a suspension engineer and could never compete with all the work Bilstein and Ben Lang did to develop the Mk4 spec Bilstens.

The program of TVR specific professional development work is another very good reason why I chose the Mk4 Bilsteins, it's unclear to me if any of the other usual suspects have gone through the same level of TVR specific development as the Ben Lang & Bilsten suspension engineer team did when the Mk4 Bilsteins were created.

The way I see it a good part of what I'm paying for with the Bilsteins is all those hours of professional TVR specific development work. For my £996.24 I don't just get the physical product I also get the benefit of Ben Lang's brain and the combined brains of the visiting German Bilstein suspension engineers, a team that apparently spent a huge number of hours suspension dyno and on road testing before they settled on the spring rate/damper valving combination.

If you factor all the development work that comes built into every set of Mk4 Bilstens I'm inclined to feel the £996.24 I'm paying is very good value indeed. Can any of the other manufactures I listed earlier in this post claim the same level of TVR specific suspension development work on their TVR focussed products?

[ChimpOnGas]

Crikey that was fast service, I only paid Ben on Saturday evening and these lovelies arrive this morning....



Fingers crossed we'll have a dry weekend and I'll be able to fit them this weekend.

As my engine behaviour becomes even smoother by the day, the harsher than I'd like ride from my rose jointed Gaz Gold Pros annoys me more & more so I can't wait to feel how 'Ol Gasbag' drives on my new bespoke valved & sprung Mk4 Tuscan "S" Billies

I really hope I've made the right choice

[ChimpOnGas]

ClassiChimi said:

I'm rooting for you big fella, now after all this sales patter you've got to be brutally honest which is hard when you've spent a bag of sand on shockers! Fingers crossed,, weekend ain't you got a torch

Exactly mate, you nailed it there.

The brutal honesty starts right here with my two first impressions:

1. My new steel bodied Billies are a shed load heavier than my aluminium Gaz Gold Pros

2. The piston rods on the Billies is much much thicker and look way stronger than the rods on my GGPs

I did bend one rod on my GGPs but to be fair that was when I was running softer springs than were right for the added weight in by boot, this resulted in allowed pretty violent bottoming out episodes. TBH I very much doubt the rod bending issue would have happened if I'd fitted the heavier 400lb springs from day one of my LPG conversion, so it's not like I'm saying the GGPs have weak rods.

On first appraisal the new Billies can best be described as "Beeefy Units", they are hefty in the hand and look very well made. The Billies are not race car sexy like a fully adjustable aluminium bodied set of coil overs from the usual suspects but as it's all hidden from view I prefer to focus on the way they perform rather than their rather industrial yellow painted looks.

Here's hoping for a dry weekend so I can bolt them to the car and test what's really important... How the car rides & handles on my new Billies!

By the way if anyone wants some old Norton motorcycle parts here's my auction that's meant to be paying for 'Ol Gasbags' new suspension...

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Norton-or-Brough-Laydown...

Bid freely, I need a grand

[ChimpOnGas]

I'm not 100% sure on the spring rates actually but I recall Ben talking 375lb on the rears but I'll have a closer look at the weekend as I'm sure the spec is written on the springs. The spec sheet that came with the delivery today outlines everything just as you'd expect but it's all in some sort of code only Bilstein understands.

Anyway to me its not so much the spring rates (although this is clearly important), it's how the dampers are valved to ensure they work properly with those chosen spring rates, it stands to reason the two elements (spring & damper) must be well matched to work together in harmony and deliver the desired result.

My next observation is all about the bushes, first lets take a look at what you get with the Gaz Gold Pro set up...



As we all know GGPs (and many others) use rose joints which by themselves are really a track focused arrangement rather than something you would ordinarily select for a road car. Now look closer, the GGP uses aluminium spacers either side of its rose joints. Why? well the damper ends are generic, the same damper ends and rose joints are used on their Lotus, MX5, TVR kits ect ect, from what I can tell these spacers are only really there on the TVR damper sets to act as packers?

Now lets look at the Bilstein bushing arrangement, I think you'll agree there's quite some difference



Check out the size of the bushes in comparison to the GGP & other units that use rose joints and spacers, now observe the big old steel washers set into the top bushes that to me appear to be specifically designed to properly locate the damper in the TVR chassis brackets?

Here's a good comparison of what I'm on about:

First the big bush Billies...



And for comparison some rear Protechs that appear use the same rose joint & aluminium spacer setup as GGPs ect...



Hopefully you get where I'm going with this? Where the GGPs have hard race car derived rose joints and skinny wear prone aluminium spacers, the Bilstiens come with big rubber bushes which over many many years have proven themselves to help eliminate harshness and vibration on pretty much every road car ever made since the 1940's. More than this think about the surface area difference between the GGP spacers and those big old steel washers used on the Billies, now think about each design located in the brackets on the TVR chassis and wishbones.

Little rose joints and pencil thin aluminium spacers vs big old rubber bushes faced with a nice big steel washer to act as the bearing face in the chassis brackets. I'm no expert but all in all the Bilstein arrangement looks like it was designed to work with the TVR brackets whereas the GGP setup looks, errr... like it wasn't.

These are just my observation as a layman you understand, I'm no suspension expert but the Billies sure as hell look like they will be a nice well located large surface area fit within the chassis brackets, especially those top bushes with their big flat faced washers.

Gambling a £1000.00 on assumptions is not the way I normally do things, so here's hoping I'm on the right track with these new Billy Bilsteins of mine

Edited by ChimpOnGas on Thursday 17th November 19:08

[ChimpOnGas]

ClassiChimi said:

The anticipation is palpable well it is in my house.
I'm sure Dave will do a full weeks test and travel half the globe on one tank full before committing his thoughts,
It's a bit cold to be swapping shocks about?

All fitted mate and I even managed a little test drive too

Wanna hear more?

[ChimpOnGas]

The first thing I noticed was the old front Billies I've been running as a temporary measure have the same size bushes top and bottom whereas the new Billies have that big bush, I checked the rears and it was the same story.



The next thing I observed was the the lower wishbone brackets were clearly designed to work with the bushes on the Bilteins, they have a kind of nipple design I'd never paid much attention to before but when I offered up the new Billies the bushes located in a way that suggested the two elements were meant to work together.

The big top bushes presented more of a fitting challenge that the Gaz Gold Pros, but the location this bush offers is in a different league, I fitted the units to the wishbone first then needed to jack the wishbone to force the top bush into place. The top brackets needed opening up a bit to get those big bushes to start, much jacking up & down, levering and swearing was needed to get the bolt to slide through.

I fitted the fronts first and went for a little drive as I wanted to do things (and evaluate) in stages, with just the fronts fitted immediately something very surprising happened, something I just wasn't expecting....

[ChimpOnGas]

QBee said:

.......the front of the car fell off the axle stands?

Nearly

But I wasn't referring to that, its the steering, the steering became much tauter returning to that lovely direct feel I've been missing for some time.

No idea why, but my fidgety steering and slight high speed vibration through the steering wheel has vanished, why just fitting front coil overs would properly tighten up my steering I have no idea?

But trust me... it did

The ride from the front was freaking brilliant too, so I immediately returned home to fit the rears. More jacking, levering and swearing followed but I eventually got the beggars in.

Then out for the second test drive, this time with the full kit fitted, wanna know what happened next?

[ChimpOnGas]

QBee said:

........the doors fell off?

Nearly

Now I need to caveat all this with the fact I only managed a 15 mile test drive, it was dark by the time I hit the streets for my second full kit run & the rain predicted for tonight & tomorrow had already started to fall.

I drove the car down some back roads I normally avoid because the surface is shocking, I threw in some M25 and pitched it into some fast (ish) bends mindful the roads had become greasy & wet.

So it was a very limited and brief evaluation but I did get to cover a good mix of driving, road types and speeds.

Wanna hear what happened next?

[ChimpOnGas]

ClassiChimi said:

Don't let us/me down Dave, I look forward to sitting down with a coffee and reading your posts similar to reading a journal or A Haines manual.

the weathers to cold for a decent test, you run out of gas
You got beached on some bit of old farmers drive filling up the tanks in the pitch black a mile from civilisation
Bottomed out all over the place, I dunno, what.

Not even close mate

No matter how bad the road surface was, it was like this all the way.....



Astonishingly good doesn't do it justice... but you always knew I say that didn't ya

Seriously fellas, I should have done all this years ago

[ChimpOnGas]

ClassiChimi said:

Remind me what tyres and wheel size your on please mate ?

Edited by ClassiChimi on Saturday 19th November 22:04

Rainsport 2's on both axles.

Fronts: 205/50/16

Rears: 225/55/16

I'm old school so I like a bit of tyre wall, people seem to forget what a brilliant idea pneumatic tyres was and insist on fitting rubber bands with next to no air in em

I like the free air ride suspension I get from my big ol balloons

Combine my bouncy castle boots with my new Billies and were back to this again....

[ChimpOnGas]

ClassiChimi said:

Get out of here, leave off, you've spent a fortune so you've got to rave about them.
Can't be, your exaggerating, nice tyres

So is it like a Tuscan all of a sudden

Ok brief experience but first impressions are there ok then

Early days mate, a short drive and it was dark & wet.

I didn't even look at the ride height and how the car was sitting.

But so far so good, freaking brilliant in fact.

Check out them big top bushes, something is going on with the steering too.... in a good way.

D.

[ChimpOnGas]

ClassiChimi said:

It's illogical captain!
How can the steering change?

Exactly, I'm still trying to work it out, but I've got my lovely connected solid feeling steering back and while I don't get why this has happened... I'm absolutely chuffed to bits

ClassiChimi said:

Yep, start with ride height, hope that's within scope. To adjust do you need to compress spring to release collor etc and then adjust height of circlip ( platform) ?
Spring compressors (never a nice thing )
Once set your not going to adjust it though!

Ben Lang said the ride height should be good right out the box, I asked for a bit of nose down rake as I've found the car is more stable like this and Ben said "no problem". The truth is is was dark by the time I'd finished fitting all four units and while I did manage a short drive I was in the car not looking at it from the outside so I've got no idea how she's sitting. Yes, to adjust you need to compress the springs, you can then pop the snap ring out and change the spring saddle height, it's not as convenient as the threaded ride height adjusters but the point for me with going Billies is I don't want to be constantly adjusting things I just want it right.

ClassiChimi said:

Ok, sounds great. Yeah why would that bush be bigger other than for a good reason? I'll leave you to contemplate and do more testing .

That big bush with its huge steel washer got uprated for a reason, it was a proper fight to get the thing into the wishbone brackets compared with fitting the Gaz units with their aluminium spacers. But the location to the chassis it gives is way more secure. Also with rose joints you can get hold of the whole coil over unit and rotate it 45 degrees in both directions about it's axis, not sure why they are designed to do this or even if its desirable. The Billies are very different in this respect, once fitted they're in there with "solid as a rock" location to the chassis with that big top bush and obviously you can't rotated them about their axis' like you can with rose jointed units.

ClassiChimi said:

I'll have to come take a look sometime Dave, compare the two cars, mine on Protechs, there not bad being honest but I went too soft on springs but they work ok and the damping is consistent.

Mate you are most welcome to come and have a drive or perhaps we could hook up at a TVR event some time? Suspension is all about feel and while I'm an expert is all the blah blah blah its all meaningless really without getting behind the wheel and trying it for yourself. You'll find 'Ol Gasbag' is slower than your car, she makes her 240hp like TVR claimed a 4.0 litre did but needs to be viewed as fit 4.0 litre and not compared with a 300hp TVR which having driven my mates 5.0 litre is a step up you can properly feel. 'Ol Gasbag' is all about smoothness & drivability while still being able to pick up her petticoats and get you down the road at a good lick

ClassiChimi said:

Dave having the Gas tanks gains stability on the rear so he's quids in. Trying to be scientific, or mathematical if you like,
Dave's added weight to the rear taking the weight biase slightly to the rear, but he's also added hefty Brembo brakes up front, I do believe they are slightly heavier than the standard brakes so he's actually brought the Bias back towards the front sgain, by adding weight on all four corners he's probably getting a better tyre footprint on the road with each tyre and in most cases it's going to feel a nice drive indeed. He goes on about it enough

Once I'd uprated the rear springs on the Gaz units to 400lbs units to solve the bottoming out issue the extra 45kg in the boot from my steel LPG bottles delivered improvements over a standard Chimaera for sure, the handling poise and balance of the car were enhanced and the car felt more planted on the road.

Even before the conversion on the original Billies and the Ga suspension the car has always tucked in on hard fast cornering, pitch her into a fast tight bend while properly pressing on and the car follows a nice predictable line until it gets to a point where she seems to behave like I've added some more steering input, it was a little disconcerting at first but I did get used to it as I became prepared for it to happen. I only had a very limited drive on the new Billies but purposely tested it on that tight bend I know the car does its "tucking in" trick and for the first time in the 7 years I've owned my TVR it simply refused to do it, it was wet so I didn't go mad but I could already feel the car is handling differently with the new Billies.

ClassiChimi said:

I'm really chuffed for Dave but as we say, early days, suspension has a habit of being nice one day and something else the next, takes plenty of different scenarios to find them out.

Exactly, its early days indeed and you are spot on with your "feels nice one day and something else the next", I had this alot with my Gaz Gold Pros and concluded the only worked as I wanted them too in a very tight window of fuel load, my mood and the roads I was driving the car on that day. But from my short drive so far I'd say there's every indication my new Billies will offer a big widening of that window because they seem to offer great handling combined with a more compliant ride than the GGPs. I can hand on heart say I've never known so few noises emanating from the suspension, I really rate the Honda & Mondeo drop links I fitted recently with their proper OEM style ball joints, and so far there's every indication my new MK4 Tuscan "S" spec Bilsteins are going to the icing on the ride, handling and comfort cake

Matthew Poxon said:

Glad you are pleased with the setup Dave, I will be interested to hear your thoughts when you have got some more miles in. I was offered the Tuscan valving when I bought mine but chickened out and when for standard valving and spring rates.

You may have convinced me to look at this option when they need a refurb. I was concerned that the Tuscan spec may compromise the ride quality but what you have explained is pretty much how mine perform. Mine could do with beIng just a little tauter on track which sounds like the Tuscan spec comes in.

I have never been overly impressed with Gaz to be honest, having said that never driven a car with Gaz monos. What I would be interested to see is Nitron vs Mk4 Bilstien.

As with Alun, I extend an open invitation for you to drive 'Ol Gasbag' Mathew, it's the only way to get a feel for the Mk4 Tuscan "S" valving, actually you'd make a great second evaluation test pilot as you have extensive experience of these Billies with standard valving so you'll be able to report back on the difference.

Perhaps the answer is for all three of us to meet at the next TVR event where well set aside a hour or so for you and Alun to both have a decent test drive over some mixed road types & surface qualities. You guys can both then report back on this post to share your genuine thoughts on the way 'Ol Gasbag' drives, first of all I predict you'll be impressed with how smooth and nicely a TVR can be on LPG, but equally impressed with these fantastic Mk4 Tuscan "S" spec Bilstens.

But I encourage you both to be 100% honest, don't say its good to be kind to me, write your review as if you'd just jumped in a regular petrol 4.0 litre Chimaera and try not to be influenced by all my sales spiel on how good these new Billies really are.

I got up early this morning like a kid gets up early on Christmas because I can't get the prospect of the next test drive out of my mind, shame its pishing with rain here but that's never stopped me driving my TVR before so I'll see you all later s I'm off for another run on my new Billy Bilstiens

Thanks for listening folks

Edited by ChimpOnGas on Sunday 20th November 07:33

[ChimpOnGas]

Not as much nose down rake as I used to run but I tried the car at 90 leptons down the M40 and it's super stable at speed so I think Ill leave it as is.

Did the all important bottoming out test and also at 90 on the M40 I hit a dip in the road I know from experience will show up any issues.

No bottoming out at all, in fact the Bilstien dampers sucked it up almost like it wasn't there.

I put another 40 miles on the new Billies and I'm very happy with them indeed, firm but compliant is how I'd describe them with the added benefit that the steering has improved massively.

Still trying to understand the steering improvement thing???