How much oil in 1500?
Discussion
been engaging in a bit of DIY over the winter, now that's a scary thought. Was trying to measure how much oil came out, but as most of it went over me, it was a bit hard!
It looks to me like it needs between 5-6 litres to go back in. is that about right? That's with the dry sump tank emptied and the sump off (don't ask!). And yes I am planning on putting the sump back on before putting the oil in!
Cheers
Bert
It looks to me like it needs between 5-6 litres to go back in. is that about right? That's with the dry sump tank emptied and the sump off (don't ask!). And yes I am planning on putting the sump back on before putting the oil in!
Cheers
Bert
Yep, I was going to do the initial fill 4-5l and crank with the plugs out to get pressure. Then top up before starting. And I learned about not taking the top off with the engine running with my first dry sumped car!
Trouble is, I don't think that 30 hours of running is enough to get the oil warm enough to get the level right. So I'll have to have a refresh, then it'll take another 30 hours to get warm to check the oil...
Trouble is, I don't think that 30 hours of running is enough to get the oil warm enough to get the level right. So I'll have to have a refresh, then it'll take another 30 hours to get warm to check the oil...
9. Warming Up
a. The engine should be started 45 minutes prior to going on track. Turn the engine off when the coolant temperature reaches 85°C and allow heat to soak into the engine. Restart 5 minutes before going on track and get the coolant temperature back up to 75°C. . Please refer to the RPE GSX-R Engine Operation Manual, our specific operating manual, for engine running temperatures.
b. The oil level should be checked every hour of running and topped up to the level indicated above when necessary.
c. By the way the procedure outlined in a. will get the oil nowhere near the operating temperature required for the minimum described in paragraph 10.
d. So in reality run the engine loads and loads before going out in the vain hope of achieving 60 degrees when the lights go out
a. The engine should be started 45 minutes prior to going on track. Turn the engine off when the coolant temperature reaches 85°C and allow heat to soak into the engine. Restart 5 minutes before going on track and get the coolant temperature back up to 75°C. . Please refer to the RPE GSX-R Engine Operation Manual, our specific operating manual, for engine running temperatures.
b. The oil level should be checked every hour of running and topped up to the level indicated above when necessary.
c. By the way the procedure outlined in a. will get the oil nowhere near the operating temperature required for the minimum described in paragraph 10.
d. So in reality run the engine loads and loads before going out in the vain hope of achieving 60 degrees when the lights go out
15. Oil temperature control. At RPE we really couldn't be bothered to engineer a sensible solution for this and just bunged it a whopping great oil-cooler to be safe. We experimented with the laws of natural selection and crowd-sourcing for an answer. We are pleased to report that this social experiment has been rather successful and has resulted in the now legendary "gaffa-tape" rules for oil temperature control.
You will notice that the air inlet to the oil cooler is conveniently 3 gaffa-tape widths wide (in "portrait" view). Under no circumstances in the UK will you need less than one strip or "gaffa" as we prefer to call it. Often times 2 gaffas is exactly the right amount. If the race season starts unseasonably early in the season of winter (like a wintery 10th March in Snetterton), then 2 and a half gaffas will be called for. In exceptional circumstances (such as if you have followed our warming up advice in para 9), you may feel the need to run the full-bifta...3 gaffas. However this comes with a stern health warning. If you run 3 gaffas, you have a severe risk of over-heating your oil up to 62 or even 63 degrees. It's also well known (well to us, but we'd rather it was a secret) that if the oil temp gets over 63 degress, the engine oil pressure will drop dramatically and activate the oil pressure cutout switch.
We recommend that teams and drivers become conversant with the "rules of gaffa" and focus their testing time accordingly.
You will notice that the air inlet to the oil cooler is conveniently 3 gaffa-tape widths wide (in "portrait" view). Under no circumstances in the UK will you need less than one strip or "gaffa" as we prefer to call it. Often times 2 gaffas is exactly the right amount. If the race season starts unseasonably early in the season of winter (like a wintery 10th March in Snetterton), then 2 and a half gaffas will be called for. In exceptional circumstances (such as if you have followed our warming up advice in para 9), you may feel the need to run the full-bifta...3 gaffas. However this comes with a stern health warning. If you run 3 gaffas, you have a severe risk of over-heating your oil up to 62 or even 63 degrees. It's also well known (well to us, but we'd rather it was a secret) that if the oil temp gets over 63 degress, the engine oil pressure will drop dramatically and activate the oil pressure cutout switch.
We recommend that teams and drivers become conversant with the "rules of gaffa" and focus their testing time accordingly.
So the actual problem as I see it is that the previously quoted instructions to get the "oil warm enough" do not work. The determining measure is the 60 degree oil temp in the running engine. This is to do with the temp of the fluids and the core temp of the engine. So clearly just warming the bulk of the oil in the DS tank (say) will not solve this problem.
So we have to get heat into it somehow. I think we have the following possibilities:
External oil and coolant heater. Use these to warm everything up by circulating hot fluids without running the engine.
Use an oil heater in conjunction with running the engine.
Cool the coolant while the car is static (rad fan) and just run the engine for longer.
Use an oil-water intercooler to make the heating work better and run the engine
Have a thermostat on the mahoosive oil cooler to stop the oil being cooled as its run
Any more?
Bert
So we have to get heat into it somehow. I think we have the following possibilities:
External oil and coolant heater. Use these to warm everything up by circulating hot fluids without running the engine.
Use an oil heater in conjunction with running the engine.
Cool the coolant while the car is static (rad fan) and just run the engine for longer.
Use an oil-water intercooler to make the heating work better and run the engine
Have a thermostat on the mahoosive oil cooler to stop the oil being cooled as its run
Any more?
Bert
XG332 said:
The main reason we use them is it massively cuts engine running time. Over the space of a season and testing it add up to alot.
So we are back to where we started! The oil heating solution does work!The daft thing is that it really doesn't matter much at all running the engine to warm it up. It only matters in the totting up to the magic 30 hours.
Bert
Well as I am now a fully-fledged DIY'er, I'd suggest the following...
The oil needs to be circulated round the engine as you heat the engine as well. Heating up the oil tank to 80 degrees and wanging it round a cold engine will be a complete waste of time (and all that heat). So I think it runs in conjunction with article 49 of the RPE instruction tome.
BB
The oil needs to be circulated round the engine as you heat the engine as well. Heating up the oil tank to 80 degrees and wanging it round a cold engine will be a complete waste of time (and all that heat). So I think it runs in conjunction with article 49 of the RPE instruction tome.
BB
The main source of heat for the engine is those sparky up and downy things. So if you heat a tank of oil and then start the engine, you'll get some of the benefits of the hot oil, but it'll cool quickly.
So you have to do the two in conjunction. Heat the engine with running it alongside heating the oil with the tank heater. If there were also a thermostat to stop that huge oil cooler working against you, it'd be even better.
So you have to do the two in conjunction. Heat the engine with running it alongside heating the oil with the tank heater. If there were also a thermostat to stop that huge oil cooler working against you, it'd be even better.
tonto1 said:
Lots of answers here, but what is the real question and what are we hoping to 'achieve' by all this oil/engine heating??
1.) Reduced warm up time and engine running hours?
Pretty sure oil pre-heating only will have a fairly minimal effect in answer to this question.
and1.) Reduced warm up time and engine running hours?
Pretty sure oil pre-heating only will have a fairly minimal effect in answer to this question.
XG332 said:
The main reason we use them is it massively cuts engine running time. Over the space of a season and testing it add up to alot.
It's definitely a two and a half gaffa meeting. Depending on how cold it is, I'd be tempted to go for a legendary two and three quarter gaffas.
I am conducting my own development program with gaffa tape and string. It's pretty much finished and goes like this:
1 full bifta = 3 complete gaffas.
Decide on the desired gaffa coverage to achieve stable state oil temp when revving the nuts off in the race.
Say for snett in march that's actually the legendary 2.75 gaffas. So apply that gaffa'ing.
Then take a quarter gaffa and attach a long piece of string to it by rolling the edge of the tape around the string.
Apply said "removable" gaffa panel (now a full bifta) and tie the free end of the string to the steering wheel.
Off you go and hopefully on the warm up lap the magic 60 degrees will occur. Then with a smug flourish rip the removable gaffa off and Bob as they say is very much a close relation on either your Father or Mother's side.
BB
I am conducting my own development program with gaffa tape and string. It's pretty much finished and goes like this:
1 full bifta = 3 complete gaffas.
Decide on the desired gaffa coverage to achieve stable state oil temp when revving the nuts off in the race.
Say for snett in march that's actually the legendary 2.75 gaffas. So apply that gaffa'ing.
Then take a quarter gaffa and attach a long piece of string to it by rolling the edge of the tape around the string.
Apply said "removable" gaffa panel (now a full bifta) and tie the free end of the string to the steering wheel.
Off you go and hopefully on the warm up lap the magic 60 degrees will occur. Then with a smug flourish rip the removable gaffa off and Bob as they say is very much a close relation on either your Father or Mother's side.
BB
doctordave said:
sorry to have caused an uprising in the ranks,i just thought that heating oil from the bottom up would have had two affects, one heating oil,second rising heat would heat the engine block,only saying this because when i leave the engine to stand for a day or so the oil from the tank seems to run back to the engine not sure where all that oil goes but its not in the tank but as soon as i start it the oil rushes back to the tank so heating the little bit of oil that is in the bottom of the tank does not seem worth while to me?so pad on the dry sump pan is the way to go?, dave.
That's the essence...heating the oil where it is. I am not sure that my oil gets back from the tank to the sump, so heating the tank would be best. If it's all in the sump, then heat the sump.Quick update from the weekend's activities...
1 polished car, looks very nice indeed.
2 oil was all still in the DS tank, not back in the sump
3 ran it up and there was no oil piddling out. So my sump off and on job to clean out the starter swarf has worked ok.
4 took 7 litres of oil to get back up to the mark on the dipstick
5 we are going for external coolant heater and oil tank heater
Only 5 weeks and 5 days to go!
1 polished car, looks very nice indeed.
2 oil was all still in the DS tank, not back in the sump
3 ran it up and there was no oil piddling out. So my sump off and on job to clean out the starter swarf has worked ok.
4 took 7 litres of oil to get back up to the mark on the dipstick
5 we are going for external coolant heater and oil tank heater
Only 5 weeks and 5 days to go!
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