mk 5 golf R32 - misfire
Discussion
Hi all, had to get recovered by Rac yesterday after a spirited drive cold and wet conditions. I stopped for an hour then went to drive and the car was very hesitant and load so I stopped immediately. The rac guy said the spark plugs looked ok, but likely to be a coil pack. No fault codes. It's with a garage but won know until tomorrow what the diagnosis is. I've read vw replaced coil packs as a recall but not sure what years this applies to, mines a 58 plate, anyone know? I've also read over on r32oc that sometimes tesco 99ron momentum can mess with the lambda sensors causing a misfire. It was certainly running rich when I pulled over. Annoyingly I did put tesco momentum in for first time during the week. The sparks are uprated as are the injectors to account for the supercharger conversion, it was also mapped accordingly. Any ideas? Hope not too expensive. Not sure where to start bu hopefully the garage can advise.
KryptonKid09 said:
Not sure when VW issued the coil pack recall but if you contact them, they should be able to tell you if your car had them changed.
Typically if a misfire occurs, it WILL be picked up by the ecu and stored against the engine module. It would be worth getting the car plugged into VCDS/ VAGCOM to confirm this. This should also show if a coil pack is at fault.
You say it was running rich - Tesco 99 wouldn't have caused that. That's a mapping issue, a lamdba sensor fault or MAF fault. The latter 2 would also be stored as fault codes in the engine module.
Having run my NA (but mapped) Mk5 on Tesco 99 for a few months and discussing it with arguably the best VR6 mapper in the UK, I'd recommend you stick with V-Power. That's played out on 2 different tuned FI cars I've owned for decent lengths of time too.
Was the supercharger conversion done recently? Who did it? And who mapped the ecu afterwards?
As you've moved the car on with the supercharger conversion, you should really take it back to where it was converted and have them look at it. I'd argue even a large number of VAG specialists aren't qualified to look over it now, let alone 'general' garages.
Paul
Thanks for the advice Paul and Supercharged VR6. The RAC plugged it in to their computer (unsure if it was VAGcom) and it didn't show any fault codes. I will ask the garage to plug it in to VAGcom.Typically if a misfire occurs, it WILL be picked up by the ecu and stored against the engine module. It would be worth getting the car plugged into VCDS/ VAGCOM to confirm this. This should also show if a coil pack is at fault.
You say it was running rich - Tesco 99 wouldn't have caused that. That's a mapping issue, a lamdba sensor fault or MAF fault. The latter 2 would also be stored as fault codes in the engine module.
Having run my NA (but mapped) Mk5 on Tesco 99 for a few months and discussing it with arguably the best VR6 mapper in the UK, I'd recommend you stick with V-Power. That's played out on 2 different tuned FI cars I've owned for decent lengths of time too.
Was the supercharger conversion done recently? Who did it? And who mapped the ecu afterwards?
As you've moved the car on with the supercharger conversion, you should really take it back to where it was converted and have them look at it. I'd argue even a large number of VAG specialists aren't qualified to look over it now, let alone 'general' garages.
Paul
The supercharger was done by Turner Race Developments in Stroud, Glous along with suspension, exhaust and brakes by previous owner. The conversion was done last April and I believe there is a 12 month warranty (need to check) and it was mapped by TRD after the work - they have done many many VR6 conversions in the UK and very reputable - so im told. It was always my intention to take it to TRD for servicing and other maintenance, and still is going forward.
Unfortunately on Saturday afternoon I was too far for RAC to take me and needed to get it somewhere that was close and still open for me to explain the issues. I have however, emailed Dan at TRD , explained the situation and he has been very helpful. He said the ignition coils fail randomly and its ok to replace just the one, providing it a genuine VW coil and not an imitation one from Euro car parts etc. To replace all 6 is about £250. He said even if the coils were replaced under a recall, they don't last forever. He also said....don't ever put Tesco 99 ron in again, its basically s
te fuel with contaminates which can damage injectors, fuel pump, bores etc and to only use Shell V Power or BP Ultimate / Esso 97 ron as a back up. Doh! I had been running V power and BP before the weekend without issue. I presumed 99 Ron would be ok as I put it into my previous Supercharged Mini Cooper S and Mk 5 GTI and they ran fine. TRD advised the garage should drain the remaining Tesco momentum out and fill it with fresh V power. Still waiting for the RAC approved garage to call me back with an update, I have relayed the above to them. Will bare the Lambda and MAF in mind, sounds £££, but Shirley if the car isn't firing on all 6 cylinders, there will be a lot of unburnt fuel, hence rich smell when I pulled over? Tried to join R32OC but having problems getting account set up at the moment.
SuperchargedVR6 said:
Ah OK, I'm glad you mentioned the S/C kit in question. The TRD kit places the MAF downstream of the charger (see pic below), which definitely helps reduce water ingress but as the filter is still close to the ground (assumption - having not seen it in the flesh), there is a chance a bit of water could get up there and upset the MAF.
VAG-COM would definitely report a dodgy MAF and consequently throw the ABS/ESP/TC & Engine lights up on the dash.
Coils are not monitored by the ECU, only misfires. If the ECU sees repetitive misfires on the same cylinder, it will stick the dash light on. Since there are no fault codes, or warning lights, I think what ever it was temporarily upset the engine but not for long enough for the ECU to determine what exactly.
Did it feel like a single cylinder misfire, or just extremely gutless when putting your foot down, like all 6 cyls weren't doing a lot?
This is indeed how my engine looks ^^VAG-COM would definitely report a dodgy MAF and consequently throw the ABS/ESP/TC & Engine lights up on the dash.
Coils are not monitored by the ECU, only misfires. If the ECU sees repetitive misfires on the same cylinder, it will stick the dash light on. Since there are no fault codes, or warning lights, I think what ever it was temporarily upset the engine but not for long enough for the ECU to determine what exactly.
Did it feel like a single cylinder misfire, or just extremely gutless when putting your foot down, like all 6 cyls weren't doing a lot?
Just heard from the garage, they plugged it in to VAGcom and it threw up misfire on cylinder no 1, so they are replacing the ignition coil, draining fuel and filling with V power just in case. Appreciate what others are saying about Tesco 99 Ron being ok, but for the sake of it, im not taking the chance. At idle, it didn't sound any different, only when you pressed the accelerator did it sound like it was running on 5. It was very juddery, sluggish and hesitant, I only drove for 500m before pulling over somewhere safe. The RAC commented that at idle, the engine was noticeably shaking on its mounts which pointed to it being a cylinder down.
Will let you know how I get on later when I pick up, got to drive back from Newbury to Oxford so should be a decent test to see if its back to normal. Thanks again for your replies and offer to use software.
Well that is scary aka kerrly ^^^ when the problem occurred it was a very wet day an whilst I didn't drive through any deep water it was difficult to avoid every single puddle. Went to collect the car today and the coil which threw up the fault had been replaced and cleared it, but it was still running exactly the same. What is really concerning me is that it smelt like it was running rich still and the mechanic said when it was left to idle in th workshop no they moved it out, there wa a bit of blue smoke from the exhausts... despite them draining the tank and putting in in 10 litres of v power, it was almost empty and we'll into the red when I got to it, so took it to the nearest filling station and put half tank of super in. Made no difference so left it with them. It sounds and drives like it is only running on 5 cylinders. My plan is to call TRD in the morning and get them to speak to the garage to give guidance. Really concerned it's major. 
So I bit the bullet and paid for the car to be recovered to trd this avo, Dan will take a look and let me know. The maf is higher up thankfully, but the air has been relocated lower down due to the Supercharged taking up the standard filters position. Dan advised it should be ok on normal wet roads and puddles, and that it would only be water up to lower bumper level which could cause problems. I don't recall going through anything near that depth.
The garage didn't replace the spark plug, they were done less than 6k miles ago so should be OK. Fingers crossed it's a simple fix as the inconvenience of not having a car for work is becoming frustrating. My first experience of owning a modified car is not what I anticipated!! Thanks all for the input, will keep you posted.
The garage didn't replace the spark plug, they were done less than 6k miles ago so should be OK. Fingers crossed it's a simple fix as the inconvenience of not having a car for work is becoming frustrating. My first experience of owning a modified car is not what I anticipated!! Thanks all for the input, will keep you posted.
Not good news, I’m absolutely gutted and feel sick. Dan has completed a compression test and no 1 cylinder is down to about 25psi, the others are about 20% down on what they should be, hence the blue smoke. He has put a camera down and the top of the piston on No1 is damaged, so there are two options:
1. Strip head off, new pistons and check / hope there is no damage to the bores. £2k (excluding bores)
2. Find a new engine with similar mileage and replace £1.5k to £2k plus labour to fit and remap again.
The cause – Dan said it was the tesco momentum fuel, it is fine for standard engines, but the engines ability to adjust to the impurities of the fuel is less on a car running 100 bhp more. Apparently its happened before with 1 other customer about 5 years ago. I'm still astounded that fuel could do this, but it does tie in with my experience because the car was running fine until filling up with Tesco. My preference is to go with option 1, as can you really trust the longevity of an unknown second hand engine?
Due to the TRD workload, it could be 2-3 weeks before they can even give my car sole attention, but I’ve asked them to start on stripping the head which they will try to do in between jobs. I’m now without a car, reliant on work allowing me use of the pool car or getting lifts to and from work, let alone the cost. Just cannot believe it. Wish I’d never sold the GTI now.
1. Strip head off, new pistons and check / hope there is no damage to the bores. £2k (excluding bores)
2. Find a new engine with similar mileage and replace £1.5k to £2k plus labour to fit and remap again.
The cause – Dan said it was the tesco momentum fuel, it is fine for standard engines, but the engines ability to adjust to the impurities of the fuel is less on a car running 100 bhp more. Apparently its happened before with 1 other customer about 5 years ago. I'm still astounded that fuel could do this, but it does tie in with my experience because the car was running fine until filling up with Tesco. My preference is to go with option 1, as can you really trust the longevity of an unknown second hand engine?
Due to the TRD workload, it could be 2-3 weeks before they can even give my car sole attention, but I’ve asked them to start on stripping the head which they will try to do in between jobs. I’m now without a car, reliant on work allowing me use of the pool car or getting lifts to and from work, let alone the cost. Just cannot believe it. Wish I’d never sold the GTI now.
No it wasn't being driven hard, filled up with the fuel (now known as the fuel of doom) last Thursday evening, drove it to work the next day, no problem, on the Saturday I had been out for about 90 mins, pulled over for a coffee for about an hour, got back in to drive, started fine, sounded fine, after 200 meters, I went to pull away normally (still in town centre so low speeds) and it was down on power and running rough.
Not heard of a decompression plate before, in layman's terms, whats its purpose? I had a few questions for TRD, to save me retyping these, they are (below) for reference. TRD have been very helpful.
1. Ben mentioned there was a 12 month warranty on the supercharger conversion, what does this cover?
2. What checks were carried out to the engine to ensure it was healthy to proceed with the supercharger work?
3. Given there is a fuel filter, why wouldn't this protect the engine from any impurities present in Tesco Super unleaded fuel? Surely Tesco Super has to meet certain requirements to be sold to the public? The engine was mapped for super-unleaded, so I don't understand how this could be the cause of piston ring failure.
Given the situation I'm faced with, and considering costs, would you replace with a second hand engine, or go down the route of replacing pistons etc?
RESPONSE
the 12month warranty covers the supercharger itself, the supercharger drive system and pulleys excluding rubber belts, boost hoses and clips, the main mountings against cracks and the diverter valve.
Before we consider a conversion, the mileage, service history and previous tuning work (if any) is taken into account. When the car arrives we perform a road test, diagnostic check, a chain tolerance check on Vag-Com to make sure there is no excess stretch, a cylinder compression check and finally a visual inspection. If anything is required the customer is notified before the work is carried out.
A fuel filter is there to catch any larger debris that could clog the injectors. It will not protect the fuel pump nor will it stop any fluid impurities like water or silicone.
The fuel meets certain basic standards but at the end of the day it’s a discounted fuel. You can buy supermarket engine oil but would you put it in your car? Supermarkets also sell budget alcohol and food but you do not have to chose to buy them as most of it is crap.
When you are tuning a car to high power you should always buy the best you can afford. You can buy budget brake pads for the R32 but if you install them into a high power car, the chances are you wouldn’t be able to stop well if at all!
If your car was completely standard, you could run it on any fuel of your choice and it would probably be fine but run worse on the cheaper brands. Once you modify it, it’s a whole different story. On your R32, there is a red sticker in the petrol flap that clearly states SHELL V-POWER only, it’s not a suggestion, it’s an instruction.
Unfortunately you have had to find out the hard way that choosing a budget brand has not ended up with good results.
Choosing a second hand engine is always a gamble as you never know its history. I am hoping that your engine is in salvageable condition (due to its previous good maintenance) and that the bores are not damaged.
We will begin to strip the engine so we can get a clear picture of the pistons/bores. END.
Yes ok, so I did see the V Power sticker on the fuel filler cap, but figured any super unleaded would be ok, after all, you are not always going to be in a location to fill up with Shell. Chain was checked for tolerance and any work needed before the conversion was passed on to the previous owner. Really hope the bores are ok.
Not heard of a decompression plate before, in layman's terms, whats its purpose? I had a few questions for TRD, to save me retyping these, they are (below) for reference. TRD have been very helpful.
1. Ben mentioned there was a 12 month warranty on the supercharger conversion, what does this cover?
2. What checks were carried out to the engine to ensure it was healthy to proceed with the supercharger work?
3. Given there is a fuel filter, why wouldn't this protect the engine from any impurities present in Tesco Super unleaded fuel? Surely Tesco Super has to meet certain requirements to be sold to the public? The engine was mapped for super-unleaded, so I don't understand how this could be the cause of piston ring failure.
Given the situation I'm faced with, and considering costs, would you replace with a second hand engine, or go down the route of replacing pistons etc?
RESPONSE
the 12month warranty covers the supercharger itself, the supercharger drive system and pulleys excluding rubber belts, boost hoses and clips, the main mountings against cracks and the diverter valve.
Before we consider a conversion, the mileage, service history and previous tuning work (if any) is taken into account. When the car arrives we perform a road test, diagnostic check, a chain tolerance check on Vag-Com to make sure there is no excess stretch, a cylinder compression check and finally a visual inspection. If anything is required the customer is notified before the work is carried out.
A fuel filter is there to catch any larger debris that could clog the injectors. It will not protect the fuel pump nor will it stop any fluid impurities like water or silicone.
The fuel meets certain basic standards but at the end of the day it’s a discounted fuel. You can buy supermarket engine oil but would you put it in your car? Supermarkets also sell budget alcohol and food but you do not have to chose to buy them as most of it is crap.
When you are tuning a car to high power you should always buy the best you can afford. You can buy budget brake pads for the R32 but if you install them into a high power car, the chances are you wouldn’t be able to stop well if at all!
If your car was completely standard, you could run it on any fuel of your choice and it would probably be fine but run worse on the cheaper brands. Once you modify it, it’s a whole different story. On your R32, there is a red sticker in the petrol flap that clearly states SHELL V-POWER only, it’s not a suggestion, it’s an instruction.
Unfortunately you have had to find out the hard way that choosing a budget brand has not ended up with good results.
Choosing a second hand engine is always a gamble as you never know its history. I am hoping that your engine is in salvageable condition (due to its previous good maintenance) and that the bores are not damaged.
We will begin to strip the engine so we can get a clear picture of the pistons/bores. END.
Yes ok, so I did see the V Power sticker on the fuel filler cap, but figured any super unleaded would be ok, after all, you are not always going to be in a location to fill up with Shell. Chain was checked for tolerance and any work needed before the conversion was passed on to the previous owner. Really hope the bores are ok.
Hi Ben, I'm still getting over the shock of what's happened, but feel better knowing the car is with a safe pair of hands. It was running perfectly for the last 6 weeks since I bought it from you and I've covered around 2000 miles in that time. I will just have to wait and see what happens once TRD have the head off. I shall probably make the journey over to see them in any case to see firsthand what's happened and also to meet Dan, I know they have a good reputation for these conversions. I just find it difficult to accept how different brands of super unleaded can result in this. TRD have said because the engine is modified, the tolerances in terms of knock sensors and other bits in the hardware/software are far reduced to run on different fuels. It's happened to only one other stage 1 charger conversion car, where poor fuel was put in. Anyway, I am where I am.
Hope you are well and enjoying the new family wagon.
Hope you are well and enjoying the new family wagon.
Thanks Krypton and Supercharged - some interesting extra things here, which to a person who Is new to modified cars, is invaluable. So it would seem I need to:
1. Establish who mapped the car after the work. Where is Vince 'the map daddy' located?
2. Consider forged pistons as a minimum
3. Consider a spacer plate, although this could bring problems with cam chain stretch - are they expensive? Will also reduce boost and some BHP, but ultimately safer
4. Consider intercooler - how much approx?
I wonder whether the car has been mapped to obtain as much BHP as possible without regard for the stage 1 supercharger components, or were the pistons already in a poor state before the conversion. Both speculative, and nothing I can do about it now, but for someone who bought (perhaps rather naively now) this to be a daily driver, I do not want to get the car back with whatever work being done, to live in fear of it breaking again, and costing thousands more.
I have a holiday to the South of France in June and wanted to take the R32. But if I cannot use or trust the car because of high intake temps, long driving hours at 80mph, and limited shell garages etc etc, what's the point. What's the point of even having such a car if its so fragile.. A standard R32 was built for this type of long distance trip.
1. Establish who mapped the car after the work. Where is Vince 'the map daddy' located?
2. Consider forged pistons as a minimum
3. Consider a spacer plate, although this could bring problems with cam chain stretch - are they expensive? Will also reduce boost and some BHP, but ultimately safer
4. Consider intercooler - how much approx?
I wonder whether the car has been mapped to obtain as much BHP as possible without regard for the stage 1 supercharger components, or were the pistons already in a poor state before the conversion. Both speculative, and nothing I can do about it now, but for someone who bought (perhaps rather naively now) this to be a daily driver, I do not want to get the car back with whatever work being done, to live in fear of it breaking again, and costing thousands more.
I have a holiday to the South of France in June and wanted to take the R32. But if I cannot use or trust the car because of high intake temps, long driving hours at 80mph, and limited shell garages etc etc, what's the point. What's the point of even having such a car if its so fragile.. A standard R32 was built for this type of long distance trip.
Yes, TRD have taken the head off and commented the block and all other internals are in good condition, therefore it `only' requires new pistons and putting back together. There is some very minor marks to cylinder 1 but nothing they can't remove with some oil stones and thorough cleaning and lubrication.
I will need to ensure the engine is bedded in properly when done and take it very easy for the first 1000 miles or so. Any particular advice in this respect? I've only ever owned second hand cars.
I mentioned other forced induction r32 owners recommended a spacer plate and intercooler and asked for comments, but the response I got was that it wasn't necessary, and not possible without other mods to existing set up. I asked why only cylinder one piston was damaged and didn't get a response. Not really going to get to the bottom of the cause without speculation. Anyway I'm looking forward to getting the car back, hopefully in a couple of weeks.
Depending on how bit performs over the next few months in still planning on taking bit on the road trip to south of France but will need to an my fuel stops wisely...
I will need to ensure the engine is bedded in properly when done and take it very easy for the first 1000 miles or so. Any particular advice in this respect? I've only ever owned second hand cars.
I mentioned other forced induction r32 owners recommended a spacer plate and intercooler and asked for comments, but the response I got was that it wasn't necessary, and not possible without other mods to existing set up. I asked why only cylinder one piston was damaged and didn't get a response. Not really going to get to the bottom of the cause without speculation. Anyway I'm looking forward to getting the car back, hopefully in a couple of weeks.
Depending on how bit performs over the next few months in still planning on taking bit on the road trip to south of France but will need to an my fuel stops wisely...
Mr Whippy said:
This thread is too interesting to not ask for an update!
How did it go?
I’ve been looking, but it doesn’t appear that anyone offers a positive displacement charger for the R32.
I’m surprised as there is so much room for something like ESS do on the old M54B30 with cooler in the manifold.
Hrmmmm
Hi Mr Whippy, I've just seen your other thread and recent purchase of R32. Hopefully this answers your questions....How did it go?
I’ve been looking, but it doesn’t appear that anyone offers a positive displacement charger for the R32.
I’m surprised as there is so much room for something like ESS do on the old M54B30 with cooler in the manifold.
Hrmmmm
https://www.pistonheads.com/gassing/topic.asp?h=0&...
I decided not to repair the car after the accident and let my insurers deal with it. It was placed into a salvage auction. It was bought and repaired and then sold to another person, whereby the engine died again. It was then rebuilt and was recently sold on ebay... I'm happy with a standard VR6. Due to the design of the engine, without a charge cooler they get too hot and can't cope with the boost and fry piston rings.
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