VW Golf MK4 R32
Discussion
Hi All,
I've recently purchased a mk4 R32. It seems my speedo is reading out (circa 10mph) at 60/70mph. Now i bought the car with a well known timing chain fault code. It was at a really good price so decided to take a punt on it with the possibility of having to replace the timing chains. The chains have been done approx 30k ago which i have proof of, its also had many thousands of pounds spent on it in the past going by the volume of receipts i have. I'm still getting the well known timing chain fault code though.
Initially i thought the car felt down on power, after owning a couple of R32's in the past i felt it was down on power after 4,000RPM. After driving it some more though i dont actually think it is down on power i think the speedo is reading out. I know these cars are not "fast" and after owning a number of quicker cars after my previous R32 i've maybe forgotten the characteristics of the VR6 lump.
I have the car booked in with my VW dealer in a couple of weeks to get the car on VAGCOM to see whats going on with this timing chain fault code. I'm wondering if anyone would know why the speedo could be slightly out? Its the standard wheels and tyres fitted.
I've recently purchased a mk4 R32. It seems my speedo is reading out (circa 10mph) at 60/70mph. Now i bought the car with a well known timing chain fault code. It was at a really good price so decided to take a punt on it with the possibility of having to replace the timing chains. The chains have been done approx 30k ago which i have proof of, its also had many thousands of pounds spent on it in the past going by the volume of receipts i have. I'm still getting the well known timing chain fault code though.
Initially i thought the car felt down on power, after owning a couple of R32's in the past i felt it was down on power after 4,000RPM. After driving it some more though i dont actually think it is down on power i think the speedo is reading out. I know these cars are not "fast" and after owning a number of quicker cars after my previous R32 i've maybe forgotten the characteristics of the VR6 lump.
I have the car booked in with my VW dealer in a couple of weeks to get the car on VAGCOM to see whats going on with this timing chain fault code. I'm wondering if anyone would know why the speedo could be slightly out? Its the standard wheels and tyres fitted.
I'm wondering if anyone can help.
I have had the car on VCDS to measure the 209 and 208 blocks. I'm getting -3 in the 208 measuring block but nothing in the 209. The timing chains have been replaced 25/30k ago but what would be the reason for no reading on the 209? Faulty cam variator? I know some folk change these when renewing the chains but i don't think thats been the case with this one.
Ive read online that they can sometimes stick the variators? I have had a specialist check various things (sensors etc) Can the solenoids be checked for the VVT?
I have had the car on VCDS to measure the 209 and 208 blocks. I'm getting -3 in the 208 measuring block but nothing in the 209. The timing chains have been replaced 25/30k ago but what would be the reason for no reading on the 209? Faulty cam variator? I know some folk change these when renewing the chains but i don't think thats been the case with this one.
Ive read online that they can sometimes stick the variators? I have had a specialist check various things (sensors etc) Can the solenoids be checked for the VVT?
Edited by Paul-g8fwk on Sunday 13th August 14:06
Update...
Well i bit the bullet and decided to renew the timing chains. My chains had indeed stretched as they were non genuine. I replaced with genuine VW parts. I also had a faulty VVT solenoid so these were both replaced.
The car drives so much better now pulls really well but there is a catch. I'm still getting a timing fault flag up for incorrect corelation. There is still no reading in the 209 measuring block on VCDS. Everything has been renewed and timed up correctly as i say the car drives really really well.
I'm kind of stumped now with what could be causing it. I've replaced the cam sensors as well but doesnt seem to make a difference.
Thinking it could be an ECU issue?
Well i bit the bullet and decided to renew the timing chains. My chains had indeed stretched as they were non genuine. I replaced with genuine VW parts. I also had a faulty VVT solenoid so these were both replaced.
The car drives so much better now pulls really well but there is a catch. I'm still getting a timing fault flag up for incorrect corelation. There is still no reading in the 209 measuring block on VCDS. Everything has been renewed and timed up correctly as i say the car drives really really well.
I'm kind of stumped now with what could be causing it. I've replaced the cam sensors as well but doesnt seem to make a difference.
Thinking it could be an ECU issue?
rottenegg said:
I'd say it hasn't been timed correctly. As already stated, if there's no reading on channel 209, the ECU can't correlate the crank position.
Was the intermediate shaft set correctly and did you count 16 chain rollers between the cam sprocket alignment marks?
Reasons have already been given for this issue.
The only time I've seen this issue caused by and ECU was when someone tried to run the incorrect ECU. E.g. trying to run a BUB with a BDB ECU. Things like DBW pedals, injectors and Cam sensors are different and anything the ECU can't see, is shown as blank in VCDS.
Yes 16 chain rollers between the alignment marks. As far as i'm aware the intermediate shaft was set correctly as i say the car drives night and day from what it did.Was the intermediate shaft set correctly and did you count 16 chain rollers between the cam sprocket alignment marks?
Reasons have already been given for this issue.
The only time I've seen this issue caused by and ECU was when someone tried to run the incorrect ECU. E.g. trying to run a BUB with a BDB ECU. Things like DBW pedals, injectors and Cam sensors are different and anything the ECU can't see, is shown as blank in VCDS.
Would the car drive well if it was off on the timing? Is there scope for these engines to jump on the timing?
rottenegg said:
Was the intake VVT definitely put back to it's home position before fitting the chain? They are not sprung loaded like some other engines. A common mistake was folk setting up the new chain with the intake VVT fully advanced. I can't remember if the exhaust VVT is sprung loaded or not, but it only moves 11 degrees anyway, vs the intake's 45.
Yeah it will drive a lot better as the intake cam timing is more than likely correct. The exhaust VVT is only used as part of EGR. From memory, you can be 2-3 teeth off on the exhaust cam without it affecting how it drives. I think it was 4 teeth off and VCDS can't see it anymore.
Nah, R32s never jump teeth. That generally only happened on the old 12V engines with chain tensioners that weren't sprung loaded, and even then it was a specific thing that caused it.....e.g. a back fire on start up if the tensioner had no oil pressure in it.
Yes it was fully returned to the home position before refitting. The VVT's were stripped and fully cleaned prior to refitting they were moving freely and free of any gugned up oil etc. Yes I have read that before that the intake has more movement than the exhaust VVT.Yeah it will drive a lot better as the intake cam timing is more than likely correct. The exhaust VVT is only used as part of EGR. From memory, you can be 2-3 teeth off on the exhaust cam without it affecting how it drives. I think it was 4 teeth off and VCDS can't see it anymore.
Nah, R32s never jump teeth. That generally only happened on the old 12V engines with chain tensioners that weren't sprung loaded, and even then it was a specific thing that caused it.....e.g. a back fire on start up if the tensioner had no oil pressure in it.
Say If it was 4 teeth off on the timing would it drive as well as it does? That's the weird thing as why we were thinking it was more an ECU issue. Car pulls really well below 4,000RPM, there is then a slight flat spot at 4,000RPM which from my memory my old MK5 R32 done the same it then pulls really well up towards the redline. It seems the EML has been messed with to hide the original timing fault which is why we thought someone has potentially messed around with the ECU.
rottenegg said:
It's been ages since I've timed an R32, but from memory, yep, it's quite tolerant engine for timing drift. It would run fine up to +/- 12 degrees off target, and owners would only know there was a problem when the ECU threw an EML because it couldn't see the cams anymore, and went into limp mode.
I think VW set the timing drift limit to +/- 8 degrees from memory, and then it's time for a new chain. I can't remember how many teeth equates to how many degrees but 3-4 seems about right. I'm not saying the timing is 100% definitely off, and it seems like you've been diligent, just an avenue to explore. From what you've said, it does seem like it could also be an electrical or ECU issue.
Maybe if someone disabled EGR, that might stop the ECU looking for the exhaust cam? But in the MK4, it also used an auxillary air pump to blast air over the cats during warm up. MK5s just used the exhaust cam only. Maybe try flashing the ECU back to stock?
Funny you should mention the cold start with the auxilary pump. Sometimes the car will idle higher on a cold start- sometimes it doesn't. All avenues relating to the timing have either been fully cleaned out or replaced with genuine VW parts. We are really struggling to see how the timing would be off. The car has an aftermarket downpipe and decat pipe fitted (not normally my cup of tea) so i'm not sure is it running a crap map to try and hide the initial timing fault and also the aftermarket exhuast components.I think VW set the timing drift limit to +/- 8 degrees from memory, and then it's time for a new chain. I can't remember how many teeth equates to how many degrees but 3-4 seems about right. I'm not saying the timing is 100% definitely off, and it seems like you've been diligent, just an avenue to explore. From what you've said, it does seem like it could also be an electrical or ECU issue.
Maybe if someone disabled EGR, that might stop the ECU looking for the exhaust cam? But in the MK4, it also used an auxillary air pump to blast air over the cats during warm up. MK5s just used the exhaust cam only. Maybe try flashing the ECU back to stock?
My plan was to flash the ECU back to stock to see if that will clear it. I'm not sure can the Cam postion sensors be "reset"? They were also swapped out for genuine sensors.
rottenegg said:
Yeah it's based on ambient temp, air density and coolant temp. Mine used to do the fast idle thing on warmer days, but rarely did on cold days.
So in measuring blocks 208 and 209, 209 is blank but what number do you see in 208? Normally you see +/- 2 or 3KW after a change job, you rarely see them at 0KW, which is fine.
R32s really don't like aftermarket downpipes and or removal of the cats, or even sports cats. It killed the bottom end torque on mine, even after being remapped to code out the downstream O2 sensors. If you can, I would refit standard downpipes and flash it back to stock to get back to a standard baseline.
It's a puzzler for sure. The only thing I can think of electrically that was common on MK4s was swapping the VVT solenoid plugs over accidentally. On the MK5 they made the exhaust cam solenoid connector brown to make it a clearer distinction between the two. The consequence of swapping the plugs over was the ECU would over advance the exhaust cam as it thinks it's the intake one.
I'm also getting a regular fault code pop up for the coolant temp sensor which causes the car to idle rough when cold. There looks like there was an aftermarket one fitted previously. I have ordered a genuine VW one it should be with me today so ill get that fitted this weekend.So in measuring blocks 208 and 209, 209 is blank but what number do you see in 208? Normally you see +/- 2 or 3KW after a change job, you rarely see them at 0KW, which is fine.
R32s really don't like aftermarket downpipes and or removal of the cats, or even sports cats. It killed the bottom end torque on mine, even after being remapped to code out the downstream O2 sensors. If you can, I would refit standard downpipes and flash it back to stock to get back to a standard baseline.
It's a puzzler for sure. The only thing I can think of electrically that was common on MK4s was swapping the VVT solenoid plugs over accidentally. On the MK5 they made the exhaust cam solenoid connector brown to make it a clearer distinction between the two. The consequence of swapping the plugs over was the ECU would over advance the exhaust cam as it thinks it's the intake one.
Edited by rottenegg on Friday 12th April 10:05
I'm sure the garage stated it was now at 0kw in the 208 but with the referencing to the measuring blocks 90/91 its well within spec. Ill be honest i'm not clued up on the readings etc and what they mean. I do have some photos taken from VCDS though.
Yes its a weird one for sure. The car drives perfectly fine i was surprised how well it pulled particularly under say 3500RPM.
rottenegg said:
Yep, get your genuine one in there. They were like £45 odd when I last did one, hence why people fitted £10 AutoDOC pattern ones instead.
208 (intake) and 209 (exhaust) shows where the ECU thinks the cams are in relation to crank position, but the numbers in 91/92 are fine. So all good there.
So long as it's driving OK, that's the main thing. As mentioned previously, the exhaust cam phasing has no impact on performance. It's just annoying it's not as it should be in terms of sensor readings. You'll have to let us know if you get to the bottom of it!
Yeah i paid just under £50 for a genuine one.208 (intake) and 209 (exhaust) shows where the ECU thinks the cams are in relation to crank position, but the numbers in 91/92 are fine. So all good there.
So long as it's driving OK, that's the main thing. As mentioned previously, the exhaust cam phasing has no impact on performance. It's just annoying it's not as it should be in terms of sensor readings. You'll have to let us know if you get to the bottom of it!
So is the second photo the 91/92 measuring blocks?
rottenegg said:
Not sure what blocks they are. 90/91 are usually the camshaft adjustment measuring blocks where you see the actual and specified values.
Ok small update.. Replaced my coolant sensor for a genuine one. Cleared fault codes relating to the coolant sensor and it hasn't returned which is good.Something still seems to be a miss.. Last night i started the car 4 or 5 times... car started fine and idled perfectly as it does. On the following start up the car would idle like a bag of spanners on the verge of cutting out. I scanned for codes again and i had another incorrect corelation code relating to the other bank (17748 +17755) so figured thats why it was running like a bag of crap. Cleared the codes a few times started the car again and it idled and ran fine. I proceeded to start the car a good dozen times and all was good. I then had the same thing happen today.
I have ordered a couple of genuine cam sensors to see if that helps. As my readings are good on VCDS i'm not understanding why sporadically it will throw up another code and idle terribly. Surely if it was a mechanical fault it would be present the whole time and not throw up a sporadic code. As it has been the car drives perfectly but can't work out what would cause it.
rottenegg said:
Bummer. I need to have a read through from the beginning again to remind myself of what's been done, but was the chain tensioner replaced?
Good news on the coolant sensor though. German engines aren't fond of cheapy pattern sensors, especially O2 sensors.
You can try cam sensors but if the ECU has issues with those, it switches to batch injection (fires all 6 at once) as a failsafe seamlessly. If it's physically running like a bag of spanners and misfiring, that's a mechanical timing issue. Whether it's iffy VVT behaviour, timing is off, VVT solenoids swapped round or faulty.....not sure. I think it needs going over carefully by a VR6/R32 expert near to you.
Yep it’s a weird one. My logic was if it idles fine 5 times out of 6 why would it suddenly run like poo.. that made me think it was more of an electrical issue rather than mechanical? If it’s that far off the timing surely it would run like a bag of spanner’s the whole time. Maybe not though. I started the car there a short while ago idles fine (due in for an MOT on Monday so just making sure all is good with lights etc)Good news on the coolant sensor though. German engines aren't fond of cheapy pattern sensors, especially O2 sensors.
You can try cam sensors but if the ECU has issues with those, it switches to batch injection (fires all 6 at once) as a failsafe seamlessly. If it's physically running like a bag of spanners and misfiring, that's a mechanical timing issue. Whether it's iffy VVT behaviour, timing is off, VVT solenoids swapped round or faulty.....not sure. I think it needs going over carefully by a VR6/R32 expert near to you.
Unless the variators are the actual issue even though they were fully cleaned and they were moving freely. They were then set correctly. It was a VR6 specialist that carried the work out. I have obviously spoke with them and they would be happy to take it back but I’m just trying to explore other avenues myself. They’re located over 100 miles away so want to explore options myself before taking the car back down.
rottenegg said:
Yeah that is sound logic and I tend to agree, but the thorn in it's side is the persistent cam/crank correlation error and no reading in measuring block 209.
These engines are very good at adapting around issues, and then they run out of options and run badly. The fact it's intermittent makes it all the harder to diagnose.
Without knowing exactly what was done 30K miles ago, it's really hard to pinpoint the issue over the internet unfortunately.
I've never seen VVT sprocket failure on an R32, or any issues with the oil supply/pressure feeding them. Try popping the VVT solenoids out and put 12V across them. You should hear a click and see the piston move slightly. If nothing happens, that could be your answer. If one or both are getting stuck intermittently due to age/wear, that will cause rough running.
You could also try just pulling the VVT solenoid connectors and see how consistently it runs then. The cams won't adjust but taking that out of the equation might help narrow it down.
All the hardware relating to the chains were replaced less than 500 miles ago (apart from cam variators- it was decided as they were moving freely and in good condition i never replaced them they were also £700 each from VW!) I had a faulty VVT solenoid that was replaced for a new one. Ill give that a go. If not the garage that required out the work will have to take the car back,These engines are very good at adapting around issues, and then they run out of options and run badly. The fact it's intermittent makes it all the harder to diagnose.
Without knowing exactly what was done 30K miles ago, it's really hard to pinpoint the issue over the internet unfortunately.
I've never seen VVT sprocket failure on an R32, or any issues with the oil supply/pressure feeding them. Try popping the VVT solenoids out and put 12V across them. You should hear a click and see the piston move slightly. If nothing happens, that could be your answer. If one or both are getting stuck intermittently due to age/wear, that will cause rough running.
You could also try just pulling the VVT solenoid connectors and see how consistently it runs then. The cams won't adjust but taking that out of the equation might help narrow it down.
rottenegg said:
Yep variators are silly money. Was the replacement solenoid oem or a pattern one? Yeah taking it back to the garage might be the only option as the usual stuff has been checked and discussed. Good luck!
It was a genuine OEM solenoid which also wasn’t cheap. Fitted the cam sensors its only flagging up one code the original 17755 code. It can only be the variator in my opinion so I’ll probably just bite the bullet and replace them. Good thing is the gear box doesn’t need to come off to replace them. I’ve seen a German firm on eBay manufacture them and are about £350 each compared to VWs £700 odd!VeeReihenmotor6 said:
tbh I would take it back rather than play at this stage. The specialist may have missed something (no one is perfect) and they sound a good garage if they have said happy to take it back and sort it out. These are old cars now and parts fail, even after spending a fortune on fixing something else, the longer you leave it the less likely the garage goodwill will stay on the table.
From what I am reading it sounds like the timing is out and it is probably those variators causing the fault. The specialist I use keeps a couple on the shelf for the 24v VR6.
Yeah process of elimination I think it can only be the variators. It’s just a sickener the cost of them but it can only be them I’m thinking. There is a German firm on eBay who manufacture them for half the cost of genuine ones so this might be an option.From what I am reading it sounds like the timing is out and it is probably those variators causing the fault. The specialist I use keeps a couple on the shelf for the 24v VR6.
rottenegg said:
That's a good saving over OEM. At that price it can't hurt to give it a try. Once the chain cover is off, I think you can get a dental mirror down there to confirm the intermediate shaft sprocket arrow is pointing north.....just to get that and the crank pulley notch in the right place before removing the variator.
As I say, I've never seen R32 variators fail, but stranger things have happened, and as above, these cars are getting on a bit now.
Maybe try an output test in VCDS to see if the cams are actually advancing.....
For the intake cam, it's Basic Settings, Group 094.
- Engine warmed up and idling.
- "Activate" Basic Setting
- Firmly press Brake Pedal and Throttle Pedal at once
- Engine Speed will increase to 2200 RPM automatically > Field 3 = Test ON
- Wait until Field 3 shows "Syst. OK"
For the exhaust, it's the same, but Group 096.
I’ll look into this.As I say, I've never seen R32 variators fail, but stranger things have happened, and as above, these cars are getting on a bit now.
Maybe try an output test in VCDS to see if the cams are actually advancing.....
For the intake cam, it's Basic Settings, Group 094.
- Engine warmed up and idling.
- "Activate" Basic Setting
- Firmly press Brake Pedal and Throttle Pedal at once
- Engine Speed will increase to 2200 RPM automatically > Field 3 = Test ON
- Wait until Field 3 shows "Syst. OK"
For the exhaust, it's the same, but Group 096.
Well I’ve replaced the cam sensors for 2 genuine Bosh ones and the plot thickens… firstly the new sensors cleared the intermittent fault on the intake cam. It hasn’t come on since (only done circa 40miles) been a fair few start ups though- car starts and idles fine. This is where it’s confusing me I was convinced the car felt flat just under 3,000rpm with the new sensors fitted. There was a noticeable flat spot at circa 2,800rpm where I would expect the torque to be quite prominent. You can actually feel it in the throttle pedal it’s a hard one to explain.
So thought I would refit old sensors and take it for a quick drive. I’m not making it up but it definitely pulls better with the old sensors fitted! I don’t have access to VCDS so I’m not sure if I’m fully able to clear the fault code to enable the new sensors to work correctly? Anyway it’s a weird one. I’ve been in contact with the garage and they are happy to take it back and look over it again it seems like it’s more electrical though. Unless the variators are causing the issue? I just need to find time to make it work for myself.
My partner and I have booked a wedding abroad for summer next year so the old golf might need to get put on the back burner for a few months. It’s not like I do many miles with the car each year anyway. This would allow me to potentially procure the variators and look to just get them replaced when I have spare funds.
In other news it passed its MOT. Couple of advisories for brake pipes and one of the rear sills is going to need attention. The car has Bilstein suspension fitted and the MOT tester noted that the front top mounts are showing signs of wear. Can I just replace these with standard top mounts? Or does it need to be specific Bilstein ones?
Gassing Station | Audi, Seat, Skoda & VW | Top of Page | What's New | My Stuff