Strange top end rattle?

[TVR Beaver]

I’ve been aware of this on the car for some time now… I think it started a couple of years ago around the time the cam was done… although it’s got progressively more noticeable as times gone on..

initially only doing it at say 90 deg when the fans come on.. but now it’s doing it at 80 deg normal running temp?…

Rob at V8D re-did the cam early last year but it didn’t alter the sound much… So it’s done it with 2 new cams, new hydraulic adjusters and new chains…

Basically, when the engine is cold you don’t get it.. but as it warms up to 80 plus deg or so, you start to hear it…

It does it just before returning to tickover say at 1200/1400 RPM?.. so at tickover it’s not there.. rev the engine it’s fine.. but let the rev’s drop back to tickover and it goes thru a band at 1200 RPM where it rattles?.. sounds like a bag of marbles for want of a better way to describe it?.. back to tickover and it’s gone?... and if you hold it at 1200 it don't do it?.. so only as the RPM is dropping?

I have close to 50K on the engine and Rob said he could find no wear on things when it was in bit’s… think it’s top end??

Any one else had this??.. any thoughts?..
Could be rockers…
or pre-load needs re-setting…
what do small ends sound like and when do they make a noise??

[TVR Beaver]

May be not a chain rattle, but reading your previous post, I think we are talking the same thing... It is hard to describe... as I say, more like a bag of marbles being shaken for a second or so... But it's in time with the engine so nothing vibrating or loose as Dave suggests?... I'm running 15/50 Silcolene Pro S so that should be okay...
But in the last 5K miles.. it's had 2 new cams, 2 new chains and sprocketts.. and 2 new sets of adjusters... and it's been there both times.. so can't be related to these parts....
Cam retaining plate?.. don't know if I have one fitted or not... Would need Rob on that one...
I did wonder about the weights in the dizzy and if they could transmit this type of noise??

Edited by TVR Beaver on Monday 11th July 08:12

[TVR Beaver]

Do I remember 'Wokingwedger' having a similar problem earlier this year.. but can't find his post's?

[TVR Beaver]

When I say adjusters.. I mean the hydraulic lifters.. push rods and holes in heads.. may be?.. but it does appear to come from both banks.. and I think towards to front of the engine?
But what ever it is has become more noticable over the past few thousand miles or so... only when hot.. and only on reducing rev's??
Was out with Chris52 yesterday for a blast.. his engine is at 75K and not a trace of this sound at all?

What does it sound like if the pre-load is not right or loose?.. or may be the lifters loose a bit of pressure as it comes back to tickover?.. but that said, why would it not do it at tickover?... all very strange....
..

ellesmereFNC said:

Hi Guys

Sorry to come over from the dark side Chimaera 450, I have the same sound at the same revs and under the same conditions. I've done the listening stick thing around the engine and everything else sounds fine and smooth but when reving and letting it fall to idle I get a distinct rattle. Maybe they all do the sir??

James.. joint the party.. no problem.. may be worth posting on the Chim forum see whats suggested there also but would have thought most look at the Griff site anyway... I know I'm always on the Chim side (mostley trying to wind them up )

Have you got a std cam and hydraulic adjusters?.. makes you think about Dave's comments above if after market ones allow the push rod's to wonder a bit more off centre than std ones?...

[TVR Beaver]

Marty V8 said:

Seems to be a common problem. My Griff 500 used to do it too - exactly the same symptoms as described by the OP. I couldnt pin it down to any one specific item but having had the motor apart recently I suspect that it was the chain on over-run as has been previously described in this thread. The duplex chains aren't tight on the cam and crank wheels when new and have no adjuster so are only taut as the crank pulls the cam. God alone knows what happens in there on the over-run. Put 50,000 miles of wear on it as well and its probable that this is a contributary factor if not the sole cause. I couldnt find any wear marks on the inside of the timing cover though so dont think its chain contact with the cover.

Havent had mine running for any length of time since nailing it all back together to tell if its been sorted during the rebuild. Wouldnt want to put money on it though.

Ive rebuilt mine with new cam, followers and adjustable pushrods so can report back once Ive got it MOT'd and a few miles on it if anyone would be interested?

I think Hexham HC are spot on - they all do that sir.

Edited by Marty V8 on Wednesday 13th July 00:18

Hi Marty... Strange thing is, my chain had done 45K with no issue... since then I've had 2 new chains (now just under 50K) and its done it with both of them.... Did you look and measure your small ends at all?... where they okay??

[TVR Beaver]

Chilliman said:

I have it on good authority that the 500's have a problem with wear between the piston and gudgeon pin, with both piston and pin experiencing wear. This is manifested as the 'clatter' you hear as the revs drop back to tick over. Mine was driving me mad.

So what did you do... new pistons and rods?...

[TVR Beaver]

Chilliman said:

John, check your mail

.. Ok.. understood....

So, If it was new pistons... do you need new rods also.. or is the problem at the pin to the piston interface? From what people are saying it appears the rods will be okay... so £250 for a set from Power??.. But does not sound like a typical Small end noise to me at all.. ?

Edited by TVR Beaver on Thursday 14th July 11:35

[TVR Beaver]

Latest on the clatter noise… Talking with a few V8 builders including Power etc…. Sounds like the clatter is due to the lifters loosing pressure as the RPM drops… (got to say the sound does sound very much like that)

This can be due to modern, well flowing and very slippery oils… Clearances on the mains (especially side clearance) allowing it to down pressure slightly on the hydraulic adjuster feed… Reduction in pump pressure (due to wear or again modern oils)… or hydraulic adjuster holes going slightly oval….

Basically nothing to worry about with any of the above…. Sounds good to me

What do we think? I've had a few PM's on this also.. people not wanting to post saying their car has the same issue in case it's a big problem and they are trying to sell... but by the sound of it.. quite a few 500 / 450's have the same sound...

[TVR Beaver]

spend said:

Eh?? do you mean the follower bores / follower cup (they also bleed oil up into the cup).

Follower bores it would appear??.... actualy does follow thru with a problem we've had at work using full synthetic oil... the damn stuff is just too slippery and I also put Slick 50 in a motor once only to see the oil pressure drop by half!!.. I suppose we are going the same way with synthetic?

Got to say I first noticed mine after running in the Stealth and changing to Silkolean Pro S 15/50 full synth....

This also ties in with a PM who had a Head Gasket go and had it changed.. the noise started from that point... could the garauge who did the work have put Fully Synthetic oil back in?...

May be the test to do is going backwards onto a mineral type oil and see if it goes.... Must say all the people who have changed the oil have tended to go for a 'better' spec??.

Edited by TVR Beaver on Thursday 14th July 13:09

[TVR Beaver]

griff50tvr said:

I had an upsetting 'rattle/knocking' around tickover which was diagnosed as one or more hydraulic lifter(s) sticking. After reading about Wynns 'snake oil', I decided to try it and it worked for me. The knocking has subsided to an almost inaudible level. Don't ask me how it does it but I guess it's got something to do with the modern synthetic oil we use in what is basically a 50's engine and the additive delivers better lubrication or lubrication with staying power.

Wow.. your the second person to mention 'Wynns Snake Oil' today!... I've never heard of it before (or is it just the Slick 50 type stuff?) so assume it's not actualy called snake oil....... must be worth a try then.... what did you actualy get?? was it the adjuster cleaner stuff?... Just wondering what hese products with suspended solids in them do to your filter however... after all, this is why your filter is there... to remove such items???

Edited by TVR Beaver on Friday 15th July 15:15

[TVR Beaver]

macdeb said:

Sorry, can't see a change in oil changing things, [didn't with mine] if it does however then great but remain doubtful and stand by to be corrected. Also, difficult to compare noises through words. Mine was 'rattle' on overrun running down from 1800-1200 revs.

Edited by macdeb on Thursday 14th July 22:08

Did you fix it in the end.. what did you do?.. or have you still got it?

[TVR Beaver]

Know someone who did that.. but it didn't appear to work?... but they didn't use solid lifters....?
.
It's also suggested that end float on big ends as well as causing oil pressure to drop, can also sound similar??...
.
Got to say that when you put your ear under the wing, you can may be hear it more than you can inside the engine bay??.....

[TVR Beaver]

griff50tvr said:

You're right, it's not actually called 'snake oil' ! It's really Wynns Hydraulic Valve Lifter Treatment and I bought it at Halfords. I was really sceptical whether it would work but gambling only £8.99 (a bottle treats between 3-6 litres of oil), it seemed worth a try. But of course, if it causes major issues (which I have not experienced yet using it with Pro-R), the cost escalates with a full oil change etc!


BTW, completely O/T, I've finally got the centre caps back after painting and, with the new logos, they really look the dogs! Cheers .

Okay.. may have a look! But they have only done 1500 miles or so.. .why would they be blocked? (looking at this stiff it says it cleans them??)


Glad the trims are okay... are you at the Growl... would love to see them painted

Edited by TVR Beaver on Friday 15th July 21:26

[TVR Beaver]

Chimpafrolic said:

Adding half a litre of ATF to your engine oil will have the same effect as the Wynns Hydraulic Valve Lifter Treatment.

Or.

Change the oil for a decent diesel engine specific oil, and run the car for 200 miles.

After 200 easy miles drop the diesel engine oil and go back to your normal brew.

Job done.

Not sure I'm brave enough for that one...

[TVR Beaver]

griff50tvr said:

The message I was given is that low mileage/irregular use is most likely the cause in my case (I lay up the car for 4 months every winter).


And yep, I'm planning to be at the Growl - Saturday if the weather's ok.

See ya there!... not long now!!!...

[TVR Beaver]

We did also talk... you could try the oil... but I already run 15w50 pro R and now it's doing it... I'm thinking of 20w50 semi synthetic...
but that said.. .I was to the cars on the rollers.. and a good 50% do it including FFG's etc....
I did call in at Power on the way down and they said some do and some don't.... I don't think it's anything to worry about... but would still like to get the the bottom of why it's come on!,,,

[TVR Beaver]

we'll have to have a rattle compertition at the next meeting.. see who's loudest!

is it exactly the same?.. 1200 rpm etc... if you hold this RPM does it fade or still clatter?...

O well.. at least you know it's nothing serious

[TVR Beaver]

fastandcurious said:

My 500 does it now after a full engine rebuild. Exactly as described just before settling at tickover. Interesting I never noticed it before the rebuild and during the first 1000 miles of running in whilst running on mineral oil. Only since changing to 10W40 semi.
Andy at APM Automotive says it's nothing to worry about and unless it gets louder, that's good enough for me.

It's very strange.. I know guy's who have changed oil from Fully Synthetic to mineral oil and back again... and it's made no change... There is a theory about bottom end clearances letting oil out... and hydraulic adjusters bleading down etc...

What work did you have done at the re-build?.. new pistons etc... and what cam / lifters are you running.. any idea?..

[TVR Beaver]

red griff roger said:

Mine has rattled for years now, but unlike Beaver, I don't pull it apart everytime it makes an odd noise.

Curiosity and the willingness to learn… that’s what separates us from the Chimps you know

What else better to do on a night when your tanks empty and you just can’t justify the forth fill-up that week!!

There must be a common denominator here.. why half do and half don’t… and why do they start even after a full re-build with all new bit’s (where as the old bits didn’t do it)

There must be an answer !!


Anyway.. why you changed your name.. I thought it was 'Roger Red Griff' before... you can't get anything past me!!

Edited by TVR Beaver on Thursday 4th August 17:50

[TVR Beaver]

Could this be our rattle?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XbCEYmtLPoQ

It does it even when you load the thing and give it a bit of side load... these are my original TVR adjusters.... but it does sound very much like the noise I get???