Griffith ignition coil tribulations
Discussion
My 2000 Griffith refused to re-start at a Belgium motorway service area on our return from the Spa Classic. The Belgium recovery chap diagnosed a failed ignition coil - unobtainable over a B/H w/e but that's another story as was our journey home.
Our local motor factors came up with an Intermotor 11410 and mobility was restored. We have since covered around 600 miles on the Intermotor coil with no problems.
However, I figured that a Bosch coil would be a better long-term solution and after some research fitted a Bosch PRC6574 with the intention of retaining the Intermotor coil as a spare. The engine refused to fire with the new Bosch coil! Reinstating the Intermotor coil restored it to life. I thought the Bosch coil must be defective but the supplier said it was incorrect for my Lucas ignition system, as the coils are not interchangeable and incompatible between the Lucas and Bosch systems.
Further research came up with a Lucas DLB198, again the engine wouldn't fire. I reinstated the Intermotor coil, it fired-up momentarily but died after a few seconds and wouldn't re-start. A case of If it ain't broke...?
After spending hours trying many things, including disconnecting/re-connecting the battery to reset the ECU/immobilizer, as a long-shot I separated the connector to the ignition module [ERR5210] by the coil, gave it a squirt of WD40, re-connected and hey presto my Griff was restored to life.
But I'm still not happy! I don't feel that the real cause has been identified so don't trust the car, and wonder if the wiring to the module may be suspect. I am not sure whether the coils tried are correct as application charts only list the 4.0 litre pre-serp cars. The Intermotor 11410 seems to get very hot [maybe the original coil did but I never felt as it worked fine during the 10 years of my ownership] as do the plug HT extensions.
Do the pre and post serp cars have different ignition systems requiring different coils? Or am I likely to have a wiring fault?
Our local motor factors came up with an Intermotor 11410 and mobility was restored. We have since covered around 600 miles on the Intermotor coil with no problems.
However, I figured that a Bosch coil would be a better long-term solution and after some research fitted a Bosch PRC6574 with the intention of retaining the Intermotor coil as a spare. The engine refused to fire with the new Bosch coil! Reinstating the Intermotor coil restored it to life. I thought the Bosch coil must be defective but the supplier said it was incorrect for my Lucas ignition system, as the coils are not interchangeable and incompatible between the Lucas and Bosch systems.
Further research came up with a Lucas DLB198, again the engine wouldn't fire. I reinstated the Intermotor coil, it fired-up momentarily but died after a few seconds and wouldn't re-start. A case of If it ain't broke...?
After spending hours trying many things, including disconnecting/re-connecting the battery to reset the ECU/immobilizer, as a long-shot I separated the connector to the ignition module [ERR5210] by the coil, gave it a squirt of WD40, re-connected and hey presto my Griff was restored to life.
But I'm still not happy! I don't feel that the real cause has been identified so don't trust the car, and wonder if the wiring to the module may be suspect. I am not sure whether the coils tried are correct as application charts only list the 4.0 litre pre-serp cars. The Intermotor 11410 seems to get very hot [maybe the original coil did but I never felt as it worked fine during the 10 years of my ownership] as do the plug HT extensions.
Do the pre and post serp cars have different ignition systems requiring different coils? Or am I likely to have a wiring fault?
Thanks for the replies guys, quite a lot to investigate now but I won't claim to understand the vagaries of Lucas electronic ignition
I've had this Griffith over 10 years, its done just over 70000 miles and never previously had any ignition issues. So far as I'm aware, the coil was original and functioned perfectly in the horizontal position TVR installed it when the car was built 15 years ago.
It runs fine with the Intermotor 11410 coil, apart from the hiccup when I swapped it back after the Lucas coil refused to co-operate.
Fuel pump primes, engine turns over but will not fire with either the Bosch or Lucas coils.
Is there likely to be a dodgy connection disturbed when swapping coils or that the ECU was getting more confused than I am!
Ideally I'd like to know whether the coils tried are correct for a late 500 Griff, [is there any difference between early and late ignition systems and are the coils be interchangeable?] - all brand new but possible that the Bosch and Lucas coils are faulty? Then I can cross this off.
Incidentally, Bosch coil Made in Brazil, Intermotor Made in England!
Is there any any other common ignition fault and is there a way of checking this?
The car is now running fine, but there may be an intermittent ignition problem biding its time or am I fretting unnecessarily?
I've had this Griffith over 10 years, its done just over 70000 miles and never previously had any ignition issues. So far as I'm aware, the coil was original and functioned perfectly in the horizontal position TVR installed it when the car was built 15 years ago.
It runs fine with the Intermotor 11410 coil, apart from the hiccup when I swapped it back after the Lucas coil refused to co-operate.
Fuel pump primes, engine turns over but will not fire with either the Bosch or Lucas coils.
Is there likely to be a dodgy connection disturbed when swapping coils or that the ECU was getting more confused than I am!
Ideally I'd like to know whether the coils tried are correct for a late 500 Griff, [is there any difference between early and late ignition systems and are the coils be interchangeable?] - all brand new but possible that the Bosch and Lucas coils are faulty? Then I can cross this off.
Incidentally, Bosch coil Made in Brazil, Intermotor Made in England!
Is there any any other common ignition fault and is there a way of checking this?
The car is now running fine, but there may be an intermittent ignition problem biding its time or am I fretting unnecessarily?
Thanks Andy43 I'll look into the ignition amp and heat sink paste - any idea where I can get that? Plug leads replaced some time ago with a Magnicor set as were the plug extensions, distributor cap and rotor arm replaced last year.
Prior to the Belgium trip, she was running fine, and appears to be fine now, if I'd left the Intermotor coil alone I would be happy that the original failed coil was the fault and that had been solved with the new one. Most people talk-up Bosch and down Intermotor hence my attempt at the Bosch 'up-grade'.
As to the coil types you have confirmed what I suspected, the info from the Bosch coil supplier was incorrect [Steve Heath mentions Bosch PRC6574 and application charts list Lucas DRB198 for Rover V8 vehicles] so possibly an excuse not to replace a faulty coil!
Prior to the Belgium trip, she was running fine, and appears to be fine now, if I'd left the Intermotor coil alone I would be happy that the original failed coil was the fault and that had been solved with the new one. Most people talk-up Bosch and down Intermotor hence my attempt at the Bosch 'up-grade'.
As to the coil types you have confirmed what I suspected, the info from the Bosch coil supplier was incorrect [Steve Heath mentions Bosch PRC6574 and application charts list Lucas DRB198 for Rover V8 vehicles] so possibly an excuse not to replace a faulty coil!
Update - New ignition amp ordered off ebay, it arrived in the post this morning, but without heat sink paste. This one is 'Made in UK', it was a surprisingly easy swap, and fits perfectly, not obvious where any heat sink paste would go, [between the amp and the mounting bracket?] no sign of this on the original unit. Griff seems to run perfectly and subjectively feels more responsive but I could be kidding myself. It will still only run on the Intermotor coil, this and the plug extensions both seem to get very hot. There seems to be more under bonnet heat than there used to be, albeit water temperature is fine. I could be getting paranoid about the under bonnet heat - so I'm still not sure!
Thanks guys.
On my Griff the ignition amp bolts to a 3mm thick alloy bracket attached to the coil mounting bracket, this in turn is attached to the plenum.
Everything gets seriously hot when stationary, including this bracketry which soaks up the heat from the plenum/heads, so I can't see that the alloy bracket acts as much of a heat sink, unless the paste itself is intended to absorb this from the plenum? No trace of any residue on the original module which appears to have been fitted dry.
However, for the minimal cost involved I'll order some paste to be on the safe side.
Coils - I've become a bit of an anorak on these, basically so long as the specification is correct the coil manufacturer is just a matter of preference/what is available, Intermotor, Lucas and Bosch coils all have equivalents. DLB198 is listed by Lucas, 11410 by Intermotor they are listed as equivalent to each other. [I did find a thread [Mini forum] that suggested that if a ballasted coil is used on an electronic system this will overheat the ignition components and things will melt!]
After any kind of blat, when the car is stationary with the engine ticking over [e.g. at traffic lights/junctions etc] under bonnet heat increases dramatically, the fans should kick-in and when you get moving the heat soak migrates to the cockpit as you might have noticed with the your roof panel in place.. The point is that all the engine ironmongery gets very hot including the plenum and everything attached to it, ie mounting brackets, coil and ignition amp and that is normal in the context of these cars.
At the moment my Griff seems to be restored to her usual vicious self, so fingers crossed all is now sorted.
On my Griff the ignition amp bolts to a 3mm thick alloy bracket attached to the coil mounting bracket, this in turn is attached to the plenum.
Everything gets seriously hot when stationary, including this bracketry which soaks up the heat from the plenum/heads, so I can't see that the alloy bracket acts as much of a heat sink, unless the paste itself is intended to absorb this from the plenum? No trace of any residue on the original module which appears to have been fitted dry.
However, for the minimal cost involved I'll order some paste to be on the safe side.
Coils - I've become a bit of an anorak on these, basically so long as the specification is correct the coil manufacturer is just a matter of preference/what is available, Intermotor, Lucas and Bosch coils all have equivalents. DLB198 is listed by Lucas, 11410 by Intermotor they are listed as equivalent to each other. [I did find a thread [Mini forum] that suggested that if a ballasted coil is used on an electronic system this will overheat the ignition components and things will melt!]
After any kind of blat, when the car is stationary with the engine ticking over [e.g. at traffic lights/junctions etc] under bonnet heat increases dramatically, the fans should kick-in and when you get moving the heat soak migrates to the cockpit as you might have noticed with the your roof panel in place.. The point is that all the engine ironmongery gets very hot including the plenum and everything attached to it, ie mounting brackets, coil and ignition amp and that is normal in the context of these cars.
At the moment my Griff seems to be restored to her usual vicious self, so fingers crossed all is now sorted.
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