Bl**dy lower ball joint now!!!... what next...

[TVR Beaver]

They say problems come in 3’s… well I hope this is the last one!!
Having got new top ball joints coz the old covers had split… and the performance with the new bushes……
I’ve just realized that when you put it all back together with the shocks fitted and everything hanging, that the lower ball joint is being loaded… I can only get about 3mm of movement in the adjuster slots to position the top ball joint.. it won’t go back any further…
Now I’m not sure it has to go back much further as I know they clamp up towards to front… But I just can’t believe that the lower ball joint has reached its maximum position and is now contacting the side (or may be even twisting the thing in some way)..
What I don’t want to happen is for the car to go over a dip in the road and the wheels to leave the ground, resulting in the lot coming hammering down and being stopped by the ball joint unit… I suppose it could snap off!!... It’s not far out and jacking the arm up only a few mm get’s you full adjustment so it must be just short of the shocker stop…. But what do you think….

Option 1 Re-fit and forget?
Option 2 fit two spacer washers to the outer 2 holes to give it a bit more clearance…. It would need about 1.5 / 2mm washers!
Option 3 Get some other type of ball joints?
Option 4 Sell the car

It’s amazing what you find when you start to look… But why did TVR design the arms using these units so close to their extremes… It would not of taken much to straighten them up more into a central position??

Here’s a few pic’s….

This is how it’s chewed up the plastic gator retainer…




And this is the impact mark on the housing once the taper is pulled back fully the other way



Has anyone had the same issue..

[TVR Beaver]

Cheers Chris... They must have been like that when I fitted them about 5K miles ago.. but didn't notice it as a problem then (unless the old rubber suspention bushes just held the shock up a tad??)... anyway.. will have a look tomorrow... I actualy don't think it's bad enough to snap but who knows.. at least I've found them now!!... will get some new / better ones... cheers

[TVR Beaver]

SILICONE KID said:

What do you mean TVR spec? there not made by TVR.When i had my four wheel alignment done he mentioned that the ball joints are now a slightly different design yet they are still the correct ones.They were never made for TVR`s in the first place .He managed to get the alignment correct by removing the large shim and fitting two thinner shims ,one each side.Job done !

What?.. thats the top ball joint your on about... and may be the head size being bigger so not going back enough.... I asked the same question on here a few weeks ago and was told it was not good to fit the two smaller ones as it makes the stearing a bit more twitchy... Your changing the castor angle I think?

Anyways... back to the bottom ball joint... Two schools of thought... Raceing green and Rechtec are selling special ones at special prices.. £55 each with VAT but designed to overcome this issue... The rest are selling ones around the £35 mark that are the normal ones (but one would hope usable on a TVR)... The latter includes 'Power' so you'd think they'd know about the issue??

[TVR Beaver]

shpub said:

The problem is known about and the guys on the forum have been excellent about warning people about it. The problem has been caused by parts that are not the same spec in terms of articulation as the originals that TVR used. Not a problem for the original cars but is one for TVRs.

The term "TVR spec" really refers to the amount of articulation.

One thing that isn't clear is whether the problem is caused by counterfeit parts that have got into the supply chain or by a manufacturer changing the spec. The best recommendation is to go to a TVR supplier that knows about the problem.

I would keep the ones you have so that you can compare them with the replacements and satisfy your own mind that they are OK.

Think you've got it there... the new ones will be easy to test... just fit them, let the suspension fall fully and see if you get movement to adjust the top ball joint without feeling and resistance... if you can move the full adjustment slot then they will be okay...
.
The Porsche may be an option if I encounter any more problems (I'm just warning to car here )

[TVR Beaver]

CHGRIFF said:

Not that familiar with the alternative parts, but from the pics the problem ball joint housing is produced from a casting or forging having increased wall thickness limiting movement compared to the pressed steel stock part.
Is this the primary difference and cause of this problem, or are they all like that?

You get all types.. yes it's a forging and the ball is inserted from the underside... TBH I don't think there is a hope in hell of it pulling thru or even snapping as it's a very good unit.. but will replace them anyway... I did look at one today at the local auto shop.. it was more like the pressed steel and welded type... and it could move even less than mine.. so no wonder they come apart.....
If mine had 1 degree more it would be fine... I think some of them stop well short and this is how they pull out or come open... I'm not keen on the pressed ones.. they look very cheap.. II don't think these are the OE ones... I'm sure they would be forgings also...
Remember what these ball joints are designed for... Lada.. so I'm sure you can get all sorts of after market units

this is the angle mine will go to:-

[TVR Beaver]

So are we saying the LHS one is OE TVR??..

[TVR Beaver]

Quinny said:

Boy, am I glad I did all this last year


But rest assured, I'm thinking about you, stuck out there in that freezing garage, struggling to get stuff back together



Really I am



Now, where did I leave that bottle of Peroni???

Ahh, there it is

Edited by Quinny on Wednesday 29th December 23:49

Bog Off !!... I will get it back together... I will !!! (what dates Chatsworth??)

[TVR Beaver]

Good point.. This year I hope!... anyone recomend a supplier that supplies the correct units??

BTW... I did all this last year also... just doing it again this year for something to do

Edited by TVR Beaver on Thursday 30th December 23:02

[TVR Beaver]

tough luck sir... not been there (yet!!)...

[TVR Beaver]

Barkychoc said:

TVR Beaver said:

So are we saying the LHS one is OE TVR??..

No but the one they chose worked in the TVR application - other versions of the same part are subtly different as per the pic.

Caveat Emptor and all that but I think you need balljoints made by Lemforder to match the tapered originals.

The trouble is that even if one particular manufacturers part fits they could change it subtly (or change 3rd party supplier), still be within the original part spec but create problems for TVR's.

It's a minefield

I know... I've looked at 3 others so far.. and all have less movement that mine!.... As mine is just hitting at the last few mm's I may re-fit them... coz I've not found any better... I'm sure they won't snap or anything

[TVR Beaver]

shpub said:

John

Just a thought but do you have the standard shocks? It could be that if these have been changed that the shock length is slightly longer than normal and this causes the joint to go onto its limit?

Steve... Yes.. still got the Billies on... sure I would have seen this last year when I fitted them... the only thing I can think of is the new bush set up has changed the position a bit (it would not take much).. or the old rubber bushes held the suspention up from the bottom a bit (as when you took the shock off... it all sprang up a bit...
either way, it's making contact now....

[TVR Beaver]

This is mental!

My old bottom ball joint just started binding when on full tilt (wheels danggling as in the orig post) so the bolts would only just go in the slots.. but with no adjustment ~(they would not push back any more).. see pic1


So having thought about it I bought some new ones from TVR Power... they must fit loads so should have the correct ones.. and Dom said they have never had an issue... (new ones fitted to arms)
pic2


But now when I push these back until they lock... I can't even get the bolts in the holes!!
pic3


So put them both in a vice... line up the base and yes, you can see my old one (in the distance) does have a tad more movement than the new ones..... (not the best of pic's but believe me they do)
pic4




Is it just my car that suffers this... and if so.. why??

You can get them with 'more' movement from Raceing Green I think... but why are the rest of you not seeing this?....
I have std arms... std shocks... yes I've Powerflexed them but so what, that should not change anything....
Is my only answer to spend a mint and buy super articulated ones.....
I did consider putting a washer under the old ones on the two outside holes... This just about get's me full adjustment... but that said, when set they are towards to front of the slot anyway....
But got to say, this is a mystery..

Edited by TVR Beaver on Thursday 6th January 20:41

[TVR Beaver]

Yes... If the wheels left the ground over a hump-back bridge for example (or more like a 6" deep pot hole!!), the shock would come down and try split the lower ball joint (not good)
Thanks for looking Chris... may be it's a OE shock v after market issue so that's why everyone else does not see it now?.. Mind you Quinny has Billies on his.... Do you get the same issue and you've jacked it up to fit??

Edited by TVR Beaver on Friday 7th January 07:40

[TVR Beaver]

spend said:

What do you really expect to limit the extent of droop?

You may even find that the old drop links were the first part to seize in the original setup?

I would have thought it was the damper the controled the movement.... You don't want it locking out on joints before the damper itself stops do you?....
The old drop links were the rubber things and flopped about all over the place... so it didn't stop on thoes...

[TVR Beaver]

haircutmike said:

Hi John.

I just checked mine as I have the rack out at the mo!

I don't have this problem as my dampers, (the new Gaz Mono's) don't let the suspension droop as much, therefor the lower joint doesn't articulate to it's full movement.

I have noticed with some makes of dampers that in a set, there are a longer pair and a shorter pair.

There is less suspension travel on the front, therefor the shorter pair should go there, is this the case with your's?

If not, for some reason your dampers are longer and allow more, (too much) movement??

I would show you a picture of mine but, frankly I'm embarrased it's not as clean as your's .

Peter... Thanks for that... Same as Chris above... I think after market units have less travel than the original Billies and may be thats why this is not as bigger issue as it was in the past??... I'm putting them on the right way (already checked that) and the Billies are colour coded to make them ideot profe (but I've also checked the numbers).

Mine is clean for now.. but I'm sure next year they won't look the same... even this year when I get the wax oil out

[TVR Beaver]

haircutmike said:

TVR Beaver said:

spend said:

What do you really expect to limit the extent of droop?

You may even find that the old drop links were the first part to seize in the original setup?

I would have thought it was the damper the controled the movement.... You don't want it locking out on joints before the damper itself stops do you?....
The old drop links were the rubber things and flopped about all over the place... so it didn't stop on thoes...

See above post.

So you think it should lock on the joints first also??... Mmmm... if your right then no problem but arn't you stressing these things??

[TVR Beaver]

Quinny said:

I think your reading to much into it......Be realistic, how often do wheels leave the ground???
On the extremely rare occassion one does, how long is it hanging for??

but it's not the 'hanging' that would snap it... it's the first sudden contact... once there, no problem... but the initial sideways shear force??

But I take your point over the shock slowing it down and it not getting hammered... so may be not as bigger jolt as you first think....

And I guess they all must do it if the Power ones are like this also?...

Edited by TVR Beaver on Friday 7th January 20:14

[TVR Beaver]

Well.. problem solved.... Raceing Green (Clever Trevor) had some made by RT Raceing to overcome this problem... not much in it visualy but when fitted I can now get full top slot adjustment...
A bit expensive, but how much does a wheel coming off cost??
Worth a check as the Power ones locked out well before the shocks stopped... and I'm sure other standard ones will too.

the new one is at the front.. the rear is my old unit... the Power ones went back (wonder if I got my refund yet??)

[TVR Beaver]

haircutmike said:

John.

just checked mine again while it is up in the air.

With my dampers, the travel stops before the ball joint articulates to it's full extent.

I have noticed some makes of dampers are longer then others which woulld give this problem.

Often dampers come in unequal length pairs, the shorter ones go on the front if this is the case.

Yes.. you are right... Spax and Proteck's don't appear to have the problem as they are shorter.. not sure about the rest.. but worth a check.. you don't want one popping out!!
Raceing Green has the stock now... but they are about £43 each