Can they do this, is it legal.
Discussion
Help needed please.
I'll try and type this story as short as possible, but I'm so angry, need some help here folks, or else I may lose it on Monday am when everybody open for business.
My company refurbishes alloy wheels, dealer we have done work for almost 10 yrs rings us last Feb, brand new car, customer wants them painting gloss black before delivery. Vehicle is collected by customer 2 days later, driven 15 miles back to his house, then to North Wales (we are in essex), drives around north wales for a week, then back to Essex, almost home the driver notices a strange noise, pulls over, calls AA, turns out one of the wheels is lose, AA tightens nuts and guy drives home, rings dealership, they recover car.
Now I'm not going to get into a row about if it was our fault regarding the wheel, its never happened in 12 yrs of business, but that does not mean it cant happen, its why I pay 7k a yr insurance, but I have my doubts as he had driven almost 800 miles.
Anyway, sales manager calls me, going spare, says they have had to put a new wheel, new tyre, new hub, new caliper and pads, 2 free services,a valet and the customer wants £5000 to not go to watchdog. I said I wasn't happy about any of this, not being given the chance to look at things, told him I would pass it all over to my insurance company, in the mean time we went in and painted the "new" alloy black, and didn't invoice them for the original job.
Gave all the details to the insurance company and left it to them.
Skip forward to July time, insurance company ring me to say they have called and written to the dealership/sales manager in question, yet heard nothing back, so they would be closing the file, around this time the sales manager had left and gone to another dealership within the same group, I had given them his new contact details as well.
Skip forward to early Sept, I get a angry call from the head of business at dealer, saying I owe them £3000 (the customer it seems settled for a £1000 to keep quiet), I told the head of business the story about my insurance company hearing nothing, he gave me his contact details, I passed them on, they said they get in touch.
Early Nov, insurance company ring me, guess what, they have heard nothing back from head of business, despite repeated attempts to contact him.
And now we get to now, the dealership in question owed me £4764 for the last 2 months invoices, I have just opened there " bac's remittance advice" and they have taken off £3000 for "wheel damage", no invoice, no breakdown of costs, Christ, they never even told me they were doing it.
Is this even legal, can they do that, after being taken for £4200 by a dealer (liquidation) last Monday it really is turning into the week from hell, and one that is pushing my company very very close to the edge.
I feel like I am stuck, if I kick off I will lose the customer, and they are a good one at that, but can't afford the 3 k hit to my turnover,
Any advice welcome, thanks folks.
I'll try and type this story as short as possible, but I'm so angry, need some help here folks, or else I may lose it on Monday am when everybody open for business.
My company refurbishes alloy wheels, dealer we have done work for almost 10 yrs rings us last Feb, brand new car, customer wants them painting gloss black before delivery. Vehicle is collected by customer 2 days later, driven 15 miles back to his house, then to North Wales (we are in essex), drives around north wales for a week, then back to Essex, almost home the driver notices a strange noise, pulls over, calls AA, turns out one of the wheels is lose, AA tightens nuts and guy drives home, rings dealership, they recover car.
Now I'm not going to get into a row about if it was our fault regarding the wheel, its never happened in 12 yrs of business, but that does not mean it cant happen, its why I pay 7k a yr insurance, but I have my doubts as he had driven almost 800 miles.
Anyway, sales manager calls me, going spare, says they have had to put a new wheel, new tyre, new hub, new caliper and pads, 2 free services,a valet and the customer wants £5000 to not go to watchdog. I said I wasn't happy about any of this, not being given the chance to look at things, told him I would pass it all over to my insurance company, in the mean time we went in and painted the "new" alloy black, and didn't invoice them for the original job.
Gave all the details to the insurance company and left it to them.
Skip forward to July time, insurance company ring me to say they have called and written to the dealership/sales manager in question, yet heard nothing back, so they would be closing the file, around this time the sales manager had left and gone to another dealership within the same group, I had given them his new contact details as well.
Skip forward to early Sept, I get a angry call from the head of business at dealer, saying I owe them £3000 (the customer it seems settled for a £1000 to keep quiet), I told the head of business the story about my insurance company hearing nothing, he gave me his contact details, I passed them on, they said they get in touch.
Early Nov, insurance company ring me, guess what, they have heard nothing back from head of business, despite repeated attempts to contact him.
And now we get to now, the dealership in question owed me £4764 for the last 2 months invoices, I have just opened there " bac's remittance advice" and they have taken off £3000 for "wheel damage", no invoice, no breakdown of costs, Christ, they never even told me they were doing it.
Is this even legal, can they do that, after being taken for £4200 by a dealer (liquidation) last Monday it really is turning into the week from hell, and one that is pushing my company very very close to the edge.
I feel like I am stuck, if I kick off I will lose the customer, and they are a good one at that, but can't afford the 3 k hit to my turnover,
Any advice welcome, thanks folks.
Thanks Mr Simpo, spot on advice as always, I've calmed down a bit now and understand everything you say.
There are plenty of companies out there doing what we do, and cheaper, though not as good quality, work is becoming harder and harder to find.The dealers don't seem to want a good job anymore, all they want is cheap cheap cheap, does not matter if it looks crap, just cheap.
An example, at the very dealer mentioned in the OP, they called me a few weeks ago, said they had a customer whose alloys we had painted black 15 months ago, they were all flaking, what was our warranty , I said 12 months but as they were a good customer we could do something for them, besides, I was keen to see why 5 of our refurbs were flaking.
Car was booked in for 8.30 am on Weds, we were there ready and waiting, car arrived at 11.30 am, within seconds we could see WE HAD NOT CARRIED OUT THE WORK, it was shocking, wheel weights painted over, no primer, sanding marks, they were shocking. Turns out the afore mentioned sales manager had "tried" a new company as they were £10 cheaper per alloy than us, wonder why.
It was by now 1.30 pm and I was keen to at least cover my costs for my lad for the day so said I would do all 5, for the price of 4, and not charge to do the backs, something the other company had not done at all. Took them an hr to make the decision to NOT have them done, as neither sales or service wanted to pay for them. So we had sat there for almost 6 hrs for nothing, yet not once did we get a "sorry to have wasted your time" or " thanks for trying to do us a deal".
Tossers, though I am beginning to see that I am far too soft in business, a soft pushover who is always keen to keep the customer happy for fear of losing them.
There are plenty of companies out there doing what we do, and cheaper, though not as good quality, work is becoming harder and harder to find.The dealers don't seem to want a good job anymore, all they want is cheap cheap cheap, does not matter if it looks crap, just cheap.
An example, at the very dealer mentioned in the OP, they called me a few weeks ago, said they had a customer whose alloys we had painted black 15 months ago, they were all flaking, what was our warranty , I said 12 months but as they were a good customer we could do something for them, besides, I was keen to see why 5 of our refurbs were flaking.
Car was booked in for 8.30 am on Weds, we were there ready and waiting, car arrived at 11.30 am, within seconds we could see WE HAD NOT CARRIED OUT THE WORK, it was shocking, wheel weights painted over, no primer, sanding marks, they were shocking. Turns out the afore mentioned sales manager had "tried" a new company as they were £10 cheaper per alloy than us, wonder why.
It was by now 1.30 pm and I was keen to at least cover my costs for my lad for the day so said I would do all 5, for the price of 4, and not charge to do the backs, something the other company had not done at all. Took them an hr to make the decision to NOT have them done, as neither sales or service wanted to pay for them. So we had sat there for almost 6 hrs for nothing, yet not once did we get a "sorry to have wasted your time" or " thanks for trying to do us a deal".
Tossers, though I am beginning to see that I am far too soft in business, a soft pushover who is always keen to keep the customer happy for fear of losing them.
longshot said:
This may be a silly question but how can painting a wheel make is come loose?
Was their complaint that there was paint on the nut hole tapers or on the back face or what?
Did the dealer refit the wheels?
Not silly at all, do my best to answer.Was their complaint that there was paint on the nut hole tapers or on the back face or what?
Did the dealer refit the wheels?
When we refurb the alloys we remove the complete alloy from vehicle, some companies don't, we do.
Once finished we refit the alloy, and torque nuts to manufacturers spec, we clean any over spray from "nut seating area" using a rose tool.
What this dealer is saying is that we did not tighten the wheel nuts, as I said in OP, although never happened before in over 12 yrs of business there is always a chance it could happen, my lads work through a procedure list when doing the job, and this, in theory prevents it happening.
The vehicle did have a new car PDI inspection in the 2 days between us doing wheels, and customer taking delivery, the dealer say this inspection does not include removing the alloys, so saying we were the last to touch them.
It's really is their word against ours, hence why I got my insurance company involved, for them to sort out.
Whatever the outcome, I'm gonna end up either £3000 down, or lose a high turnover customer.
I'm pretty sure I will get my money, be it from the insurance company, or by taking dealer to court. However this may take months, and we are heading into the toughest 3 months of the yr, plus of course all the costs that come with Christmas .
Add this to the £4200 I was taken for on Monday and it's been a tough week.
Thanks for pointers folks, whatever the outcome I think it's time to knock this dealer on the head and move forward.
Add this to the £4200 I was taken for on Monday and it's been a tough week.
Thanks for pointers folks, whatever the outcome I think it's time to knock this dealer on the head and move forward.
Well, I called the accounts dept this morning and got them to send me a copy of my "invoice", as you can see it's very detailed (not) and further highlights my thoughts that they have just plucked the figure out of thin air.
I then called my insurance company, who as I thought said they cannot do anything until the dealership get in touch, they suggest I tried to call them.
I then called, and left 3 messages for the head of business to call me, nothing as yet, I know he was in as spoke to someone at dealership in the morning when they called to book 10 wheels in for tomorrow.
Let's see what tomorrow brings.
I then called my insurance company, who as I thought said they cannot do anything until the dealership get in touch, they suggest I tried to call them.
I then called, and left 3 messages for the head of business to call me, nothing as yet, I know he was in as spoke to someone at dealership in the morning when they called to book 10 wheels in for tomorrow.
Let's see what tomorrow brings.
Edited by Quattromaster on Monday 2nd December 21:19
Mr Overheads said:
Sorry for my ignorance, but why does a loose wheel nut that the AA has successfully tightened and the car then safely driven home need new wheel, tyre, hub, caliper, pads, 2 free services , a valet AND £5,000?
Today's claim culture i guess, the customers brother or neighbour, can't remember which, was a solicitor and was offering all sorts of helpful advice.To start with he wanted to reject the whole car for a new one, saying the "loose wheel nuts" would affect the resale value of the vehicle.
Well, time for a catch up.
It seems, after lots of digging work by MYSELF that the only thing the vehicle needed was a new alloy, which was put to cost of vehicle, the £2500 plus vat that I've been stung for was paid to customer to keep him sweet.
My insurance company have been worse than useless, they came out and looked and the original alloy which I still have, and then that's it, nothing, useless t
ts, so today I put in a small claims court claim against dealership in question.
Let's see where this gets me.
It seems, after lots of digging work by MYSELF that the only thing the vehicle needed was a new alloy, which was put to cost of vehicle, the £2500 plus vat that I've been stung for was paid to customer to keep him sweet.
My insurance company have been worse than useless, they came out and looked and the original alloy which I still have, and then that's it, nothing, useless t
ts, so today I put in a small claims court claim against dealership in question.Let's see where this gets me.
Well, nothing heard as yet, I can issue Judgement this Friday, so will do so with much speed.
As a side note just received this email from my insurance company, who in my opinion have been worse than useless in this matter, what do you think guys, I'm tempted to just say, hold fire with doing anything, see how the small claims action pans out.
...........................................................................................................................................................
Dear Mr Quattromaster,
I refer to the above claim reference and our previous correspondence concerning the same.
We have now been passed a workshop repair invoice from ********, please see attached. This sates that the following repairs were carried out; wheel hub, alloy wheel, bolts, wheel bearing. You will note that the repairs totalled £772.60.
This is some way from the £2500.00 which was deducted from your payments by ********. We propose to proceed with the following;
-Pass the invoice to our internal motor engineers to confirm if the repair costs are fair/reasonable. If they confirm this, we will proceed to reimburse you £772.60 less the applicable £500 policy excess.
-Make further investigation with ******** to determine the remaining balance (£1,727.40). Along with the cost of repairs, your policy covers you for consequential loss such as recovery/breakdown charges, loss of use, hire ect. We will therefore request confirmation from ******** why the further sum of £1,727.40 has been claimed. It is noted that they refer to this as a 'goodwill gesture', however we need to confirm if this covered charges for loss of use, breakdown ect. These costs will be able to be reimbursed by ourselves, however any 'goodwill gesture' cannot.
Once we have received a response from ******* and our internal engineer concerning the repair charges, we will revert to you.
Kind regards,
............................................................................................................................................................
I can only see myself getting £272.60 back of my £3000 if I let the insurance company proceed.
Edit......Thanks to whoever pointed out I left dealership in posting once, I guess most people can guess who it is anyway but thanks for pointer.
As a side note just received this email from my insurance company, who in my opinion have been worse than useless in this matter, what do you think guys, I'm tempted to just say, hold fire with doing anything, see how the small claims action pans out.
...........................................................................................................................................................
Dear Mr Quattromaster,
I refer to the above claim reference and our previous correspondence concerning the same.
We have now been passed a workshop repair invoice from ********, please see attached. This sates that the following repairs were carried out; wheel hub, alloy wheel, bolts, wheel bearing. You will note that the repairs totalled £772.60.
This is some way from the £2500.00 which was deducted from your payments by ********. We propose to proceed with the following;
-Pass the invoice to our internal motor engineers to confirm if the repair costs are fair/reasonable. If they confirm this, we will proceed to reimburse you £772.60 less the applicable £500 policy excess.
-Make further investigation with ******** to determine the remaining balance (£1,727.40). Along with the cost of repairs, your policy covers you for consequential loss such as recovery/breakdown charges, loss of use, hire ect. We will therefore request confirmation from ******** why the further sum of £1,727.40 has been claimed. It is noted that they refer to this as a 'goodwill gesture', however we need to confirm if this covered charges for loss of use, breakdown ect. These costs will be able to be reimbursed by ourselves, however any 'goodwill gesture' cannot.
Once we have received a response from ******* and our internal engineer concerning the repair charges, we will revert to you.
Kind regards,
............................................................................................................................................................
I can only see myself getting £272.60 back of my £3000 if I let the insurance company proceed.
Edit......Thanks to whoever pointed out I left dealership in posting once, I guess most people can guess who it is anyway but thanks for pointer.
Edited by Quattromaster on Wednesday 5th March 18:03
davepoth said:
Frankly I'm not even certain you should have paid for the alloy but I can understand why you did it.
At present I've not paid them anything, I went and resprayed the "new" alloy black for them, FOC, so that it matched the others on vehicle.What amazes me is the insurance company know the £2500 was given to the customer as a goodwill gesture, know the only thing the vehicle needed was a new alloy, that was charged to cost of vehicle anyway, this means they must know the invoice that's appeared this week stating it needed hub,bearings and tons of other stuff is totally made up.
The "damaged" alloy sits in my unit, and is as new as any alloy that has only done 800 mile, with luck I will be paid/win the court case, and then be able to sell the alloy, lol.
Well I went for judgement, the dealership then issued an acknowledgement of service the next day, so judgement was rejected .
No idea what that means, time to get my reading glasses out and find out.
Edit....Seems that means they have given themselves another 14 days to mess me about/stall payment.
Bugger.
No idea what that means, time to get my reading glasses out and find out.
Edit....Seems that means they have given themselves another 14 days to mess me about/stall payment.
Bugger.
Edited by Quattromaster on Friday 14th March 10:21
johnfm said:
It depends a lot on how well the claim has been drafted.
.
You have me worried now, I put in a simple claim for part non payment of invoices, as in they owed me 2 invoices totalling £4764, they deducted £3000, so only paying me £1764.
I'm claiming the £3000.
I've made no mention of any of the issues listed in this thread, if need be I'll save all that for the court.
Edited by Quattromaster on Saturday 15th March 23:00
UPDATE TIME
So, the dealer is defending the claim, putting as his defence "We dispute the said claim as the amount of £3000 owing to (me) was contra settled against our invoice 123456 (attached) for the sum of £3000,The claimant is well aware of our invoice and at no time dispute it and the fact that the monies were contra settled "
3 days later I get an email from my insurance company, saying they have received a email from the dealer saying there are no other monies owing bar the invoice for £772.60. Now all along we have never tried to shy away from this matter, and I'm happy to pay that, so thinking they have come to senses I write the dealer a letter, saying
" I understand from speaking with my insurance company that (dealer name) have agreed that no further monies are owed other than the £772.60, I have no problems paying this amount on receipt of a correctly issued invoice, including vat.
If you can therefore arrange for all monies owed to (me), including court fees, to be paid, plus raise an invoice, made out to (me), plus vat, then I will make sure that this is paid the same day we receive it, I will then notify the court of full and final settlement and close the case."
Nothing for a week, then a letter from dealership saying nobody has emailed the insurance company, and they are still defending the claim. So, I decide its time to see a solicitor, tempted as I am to contact dealer saying I have a copy of said email, and will see you in court.
My solicitor is confident it is a no lose case for me, they have stopped monies from myself, from 2 invoices that had no relation to the vehicle in question, he fired off a 3 page letter, highlighting this, offering to pay the £772.60 once I have my money back, and a correct invoice, in the meantime I filled another court paper in, asking for mediation, had to do this as time was running short for the case to be thrown out.
Dealer has chosen to ignore my solicitors letter, and we are off to mediation in the first week of May, seems its a 1-2 hrs process, done over the phone.
I am beginning to think this is the start of a long and winding road.
So, the dealer is defending the claim, putting as his defence "We dispute the said claim as the amount of £3000 owing to (me) was contra settled against our invoice 123456 (attached) for the sum of £3000,The claimant is well aware of our invoice and at no time dispute it and the fact that the monies were contra settled "
3 days later I get an email from my insurance company, saying they have received a email from the dealer saying there are no other monies owing bar the invoice for £772.60. Now all along we have never tried to shy away from this matter, and I'm happy to pay that, so thinking they have come to senses I write the dealer a letter, saying
" I understand from speaking with my insurance company that (dealer name) have agreed that no further monies are owed other than the £772.60, I have no problems paying this amount on receipt of a correctly issued invoice, including vat.
If you can therefore arrange for all monies owed to (me), including court fees, to be paid, plus raise an invoice, made out to (me), plus vat, then I will make sure that this is paid the same day we receive it, I will then notify the court of full and final settlement and close the case."
Nothing for a week, then a letter from dealership saying nobody has emailed the insurance company, and they are still defending the claim. So, I decide its time to see a solicitor, tempted as I am to contact dealer saying I have a copy of said email, and will see you in court.
My solicitor is confident it is a no lose case for me, they have stopped monies from myself, from 2 invoices that had no relation to the vehicle in question, he fired off a 3 page letter, highlighting this, offering to pay the £772.60 once I have my money back, and a correct invoice, in the meantime I filled another court paper in, asking for mediation, had to do this as time was running short for the case to be thrown out.
Dealer has chosen to ignore my solicitors letter, and we are off to mediation in the first week of May, seems its a 1-2 hrs process, done over the phone.
I am beginning to think this is the start of a long and winding road.
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