New business finance - guessing impossible at these figures

New business finance - guessing impossible at these figures

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sidekickdmr

Original Poster:

5,076 posts

206 months

Tuesday 25th August 2015
quotequote all
Hello,

Is like to come out straight away and say I'm expecting you all to say "no chance in hell" but on the off chance I'll ask anyway.

Me and my OH are really ready to start a new business, we both are willing to stop our well paid jobs, and work our arses off to make this business to work, it's the lifestyle and income we dream of.

We just need 3.5 million pound to make it work silly

But hear me out.

Every year, sometimes twice a year me and my friends all get together and rent a huge mansion, we're talking 9 bedrooms, swimming pools, games rooms, acres of land, home cinemas etc etc.

For just 3 nights we pay about £4,000 and trust me, all of the ones that are only half decent get booked up months and months in advance.

On top of this, me and my wife, with the dogs try and go away once a year (not a holiday, just a quiet weekend) we always look for a 1-2 bed modern but characterful cottage, but again looking at £600 for 3 nights and can't find anywhere decent as they are all fully booked.

Finally, we got married last weekend, we ended up having an outside style wedding
In an amazing farm, which was just the grounds of a (very impressive) private house. We paid a total of about £5,000 for a patch of grass (and a power supply) for just one night, again, only had 2 weekends free when we enquires over a year ago.

So, this brings me onto my idea.

In Cornwall/Devon, in a nice and picturesque location, we would love to buy a very grand and very impressive 8 bed mansion, for say 2.5 million pound, this would
Come with say 70 acres of land.

The home alone, based on a 70% occupancy rate would bring in £135,000 annually, this is based on weekends only and no peak rates for summer/Xmas.

We would then need an additional 2 million to build/convert 4 2-3 bed cottages on the land, each bringing in £600-800 a weekend, more for a whole week.

Finally, a spa centre would be built central to all 5 properties, bookable exclusively (3 hour slots, each house at a time). This would have pool, treatment rooms, hot tubs, gym, sauna, steam room etc.

We would live in the gate house, and be on hand to keep a bit of an eye on things and sort out any issues.

There are also lots and lots of opportunities to up sell, offer things like local produce breakfast hampers delivered to your door, cocktail making classes, chef hire etc etc

Back of fag packet calcs work out as

£140,000 income from the main house

£130,000 income from the cottages

£40,000 income from weddings on land

£20,000 from unsold packages and add ons.

Total £230,000 income based on a worst case low occupancy, no week time bookings.

Now, considering the banks money is all secured against the asserts, which would (should) actually be worth more than the total lent, it's relatively low risk, easy to show its already a proven business model, and great returns.

Any possibility at all of this being a remote possibility t o finance?

I can handle the disappointment, I've prepared myself for it!

Thanks

sidekickdmr

Original Poster:

5,076 posts

206 months

Tuesday 25th August 2015
quotequote all
southendpier said:
Therefore any investor will have an exit value to their investment.
This is what I'm banking on being the only small possibility that someone might consider it! If I was asking for 4.5 million to hire staff, get machinery, rent a premises I wouldn't have even considered asking, as I know what the answer would have been.

But if I put a lot (A LOT) of time and effort into a business plan to show the potential, competition turnover etc, as well as plough every penny we have after the sale of our house, combined with the fact that the value of the property will always match or exceed the Invested value (bar a rescission/war).

I'm wondering if there is a small chance of someone considering it.


Re:costs and profit, I know it needs a lot of work, this is just fag packet calcs before I invest a lot of time and effort into a loosing battle if peeps think it's impossible.


Edited by sidekickdmr on Tuesday 25th August 20:00

sidekickdmr

Original Poster:

5,076 posts

206 months

Wednesday 26th August 2015
quotequote all
No staff, me and the OH would be marketing, cleaning, gardening, key handovers etc, basically the day to day running of the properties.

We would need a handyman/builder for repairs and upkeep and a gardener for perhaps a weekly visit.



sidekickdmr

Original Poster:

5,076 posts

206 months

Wednesday 26th August 2015
quotequote all
Monkeylegend said:
All that with no staff, you are joking, it's not possible. Will you be running the Spa centre as well?

Not being rude but you are living in cloud cuckoo land.
My other half will be managing the cleaning and turnover side of things, most weeks we will have 3 whole days to prepare and clean the properties. In summer, additional help may be bought in to speed up the turnovers.

Paperwork, marketing, and back office can be done in downtime/evenings.

Spa is un-managed, yes it needs cleaning and tidying, with a daily water treatment, but there is no staff present at all times.

This leaves key hand over, general maintenance, queries and assistance, and gardening to me.

When we stay in our mansion we stay Friday to Monday, and we don't see a single member of staff or owner once in our whole stay, it's self catering, self cleaning, self managed.

Only time I needed someone was when we couldn't get the hot tub to come on, called him and 20 mins later he popped in and sorted it, was gone within 5 mins.

So it's basically, Monday - Thursday cleaning and gardening, plus any property maintaince, Friday to Monday, being on hand to oversee and assist in any queries, plus tidy/treat spa between bookings.

Please feel free to tell me anything I've missed


sidekickdmr

Original Poster:

5,076 posts

206 months

Wednesday 26th August 2015
quotequote all
Oh and by the way, the occupancy figs I have quoted (70%) wasn't occupancy of the full year, that was based on weekends only.

So for example, the £140,000 income was based only on Friday to Monday bookings, based on 37 weekends out of 52, week long, or week day only bookings would be on top of this.

sidekickdmr

Original Poster:

5,076 posts

206 months

Wednesday 26th August 2015
quotequote all

Frio3535 said:
Running things together detracts from any 'lifestyle' you might wish to have as without staff it'll quickly consume your life. You'll still have bullst to deal with, just it'll be a different kind, and you'll be in a different place... If that's your ideal then fair enough.

I did a similar switch from a lifestyle perspective but I have a load of staff so I can enjoy my surroundings and not have to be present all day every day. I think a multi stage approach (House first, smaller lets second, etc) to this would be more realistic.
That's the thing, this is the lifestyle I want!

I don't want an easy ride, I'm only 28 and I have a very aggressive work ethic, my idea of a great lifestyle is me and the dogs, out all day, in the defender, running errands, gardening, meeting customers, painting, running to the local butchers, calling out a plumber for a broken boiler etc.

I absolutely love property, love arranging events and an a very people's person, this seems to combine all of my passions and things I'm good at, hence I'd be happy to work 24 hours a day for it.

I wouldn't mind being woken up at 3am as the power has tripped, or putting up a spare bed as an extra guest showed up.

I think I could make it work!

sidekickdmr

Original Poster:

5,076 posts

206 months

Wednesday 26th August 2015
quotequote all
But yes, all of your points are correct, and I knew it was un realistic to hit the ground running with 4.5 mill in my pocket to make it work.

So, something like this may be a good starting point

Martin Street, Baltonsborough, Glastonbury, Somerset
http://www.rightmove.co.uk/property-for-sale/prope...

£375,000, needs about 200k spent on it, including converting the outbuildings to games rooms, plant rooms and landscaping the land etc.

We could possibly just about get this mortgage personally.

Rent a little cottage around the corner, and give it a go.

Once done, (in a very funky farmhouse farrow and ball style) with hot tub, perhaps small outside pool etc, I reckon we could get £3,000 a weekend, £4,500 a week in the summer.

Pretty decent starting point and would be a great project!


sidekickdmr

Original Poster:

5,076 posts

206 months

Wednesday 26th August 2015
quotequote all
Wouldn't be managing from a distance and I certainly wouldn't be sitting back laugh, we would be living there and be at the property/grounds all day every day, just a more "out of site out of mind" way when guests are staying.

Re the figs, that was a typo, should have said 4.5 needed, I don't have a million pounds unfortunately.

Have about 200k tied up in current house, so once sold, that and a mortgage could be used towards the smaller place.

Edited by sidekickdmr on Wednesday 26th August 11:50

sidekickdmr

Original Poster:

5,076 posts

206 months

Wednesday 26th August 2015
quotequote all
Yes I noticed that too and realised that may make this one unsuitable, however we won't be in a postision to buy this one anyway and that was just an expample.

sidekickdmr

Original Poster:

5,076 posts

206 months

Wednesday 26th August 2015
quotequote all
CaptainSlow said:
I think your calculator is broken.
Seems to be my keyboard, not my calc, figs were correct in my head

Must be more careful type

sidekickdmr

Original Poster:

5,076 posts

206 months

Wednesday 26th August 2015
quotequote all
Something like this could work as a half way house (ticks most of the boxes of the first property, but cheaper and scope to add value, like the 2nd property.)

http://www.rightmove.co.uk/property-for-sale/prope...

1.2 Million, plus I guess another 300k to finish refurbishing upstairs and furnish (hard to say without seeing it)

It's not listed, which gives you much more freedom and less hassle. It needs a bit of interior design and landscaping to give it that WOW factor.

Once finished run this property on its own as a Mansion holiday let, due to the number of bedrooms and pool you could get quite serious money, perhaps 4.5k a weekend - 6.5k a week?

And then, once it is turning a profit, one by one, apply for finance and planning and build smaller holiday cottages in the outskirts of the land.

Slowly grow the business, organically (profit and experience wise)

Plus it's in a great location, in Dartmoor national park. A great tourist area.

sidekickdmr

Original Poster:

5,076 posts

206 months

Wednesday 26th August 2015
quotequote all
jammy_basturd said:
I think you need to research prices a bit more, then take a worst case figure.
https://www.airbnb.com/rooms/1117501?checkin=07%2F...

Also research just how much these large places do get used. There's a huge choice on AirBNB and it seems a lot of houses available on a lot of dates.
I know it sounds silly, but it all comes down to the style/feel/decor of the place!

The kind of people that will be wanting to spend ££££ on a weekend away with the family, are Londoners, and successful business people. These people don't want to stay in grandma's tea doily.

We are a key example of this, I would never stay in the place you just posted, amazing house, but doesn't do it for me.

When vie looked for a big mansion to stay in, all the old fashioned places (which is about 90% of them), like the one you linked to, are dead, nobody books them at all.

The more "young and fun" places, still with the character, but a modern, fun and quirky twist are the booked up ones.






I may as well stop beating around the bush and just say, this business model is what I am aiming for, just all on the one big estate.

http://www.woodlandsretreats.co.uk/

Take a look at the online diary, summer is now archived, but that was fully fully booked, every week.

The main house, woodlands farmhouse, only has 2 weeks currently not booked between now and Xmas.

Edited by sidekickdmr on Wednesday 26th August 14:09

sidekickdmr

Original Poster:

5,076 posts

206 months

Wednesday 26th August 2015
quotequote all
jammy_basturd said:
I think you need to speak to a couple of banks before getting carried away with yourself. If you've only got £200k to put in yourself, I'm not sure how you'd hope to get another £1m as a loan/mortgage.
Thats kind of the whole point of this thread

Asking if getting any kind of finance for a large project like this is possible, with the bigger income and potential this brings.


If not we will start at the bottom with our own money/mortgage and work our way up.

sidekickdmr

Original Poster:

5,076 posts

206 months

Wednesday 26th August 2015
quotequote all
Thanks for the helpful post, ill have a go at answering some of the Q's below!

OP what experience do you have in this sector? Dealing with people at any level is a complete pita, nothing will go to plan . Never presume the guests will treat the place and be like you and your partner!

I've never worked in a hotel/B&B but have worked with the general public lots, and don't get me wrong, things will go wrong, get broken and people will wind me up, but I'm expecting it, and would be building my business model around worse case scenario (insurance, large security deposits etc.

Re: London folk coming to visit granny, that's not the business at all. This mansion is booked out for birthdays, hen parties, family events, weddings, xmas etc. The house IS the main event, not just accommodation for a weekend away.

As an example, without ever knowing I've been to one, let alone thinking of doing one, my Aunte said to me just last week, Its my 50th soon, Im going to hire a huge house in the country, get some caterers and a band in and have all friends and family together for the weekend. This must happen all the time, country wide.

Ive mentioned it before but regardless of doing this or not, next summer
I'll be spending (well me and my mates) £3,500 on a mansion for a weekend to get together and have a laugh, that will be the 3rd year in a row then


Also do you have any experience with older buildings or construction?

Yes, we fully refurbished our last house, bare brick referb. New ceilings, walls, electrics, kitchens, bathrooms etc. On top of this we currently live in and maintain a 1880's cottage and large garden. My dads a builder, my granddad a double glazer, so i have family/friends to help out/advise

I think you will stretch yourself so much with all the jobs you and your partner intend to do, its all great on paper, but there are so many issues you haven't foreseen , which will eat into time. Stuff like H&S regulation and waiting around when people don't show for handovers is a complete pita!

Agreed, there will be lots I've not thought of, however im not adverse to getting someone to help if we really need it, but this will again grow organically with the busier we get and more turnover, so at the point we need help, we should be able to afford it.

Have you looked into AirBnB as a platform to market such a place? My mate swears by it and some of the properties on there are nice little earners, although you only every here the success stories ..not the people who are struggling

All of the mansions ive tried to book, but had no luck as they are fully booked in the past, have been almost self promoting, listing themselves on sites like "Big Domain" but bookings taken direct. However im one of those people that would try anything to make it work, face book, adverts in Metro, you name it id try it (providing i thought it was worth it of course).

Don't want to sound harsh, but its a big ask OP !
No its great, this is exactly what i need to gather peoples thoughts and feedback, Thank you


Edited by sidekickdmr on Wednesday 26th August 15:23

sidekickdmr

Original Poster:

5,076 posts

206 months

Wednesday 26th August 2015
quotequote all
Thank you so much for your help TMM, really appreciate it and you raise some great points.

The company I linked to as being my inspiration, Ive stayed with them 3 times now, in two of their properties. So I know first hand how they run, booking process, little touches that make it feel special etc. But I also spotted lots of things that could be done to improve the experiance, and at the same time profit.

Its clearly working for them, they seem to be adding a new property every year!

First thing we need to do is get our house sold, we can then have the money in the bank and keep en eye out for properites and potentially investers.

Starting small-medium seems to be the way, but its hard as the top of the market (house size and style wise) is the "in demand" section, so it seems like its all or nothing.

Thanks smile

sidekickdmr

Original Poster:

5,076 posts

206 months

Thursday 27th August 2015
quotequote all
R11ysf said:
OP can you answer 2 questions that makes this easier to answer.

1. How much are you putting in?
2. What are the well paying jobs you are giving up?

Thanks.
1. Everything we have, which is about 200k once we have sold our house.
2. Nobody said "very" ;-), but we both contract within financial services.

akirk said:
As a suggestion / to try the market - start by finding a current home owner who will let you manage / rent out their house (qutie common with this size of house) - do a couple of years trial run to see how it goes... I have a client who does what you want to do on a reasonably large scale - there is a lot of work behind the scenes, a lot of capital in setting it up...

If you start with someone else's house you won't need to find the capital investment...
Yes I did look into this before, and it would certainly be a great idea, the only issues I can see are:

1. Insurance, it was hard to find a policy to take out as a business, to protect other peoples property/contents, for short term renters.

2. If it works, but the owner wants it back/we decide to buy our own place, we loose all word of mouth and repeat custom that has built up.

3. Finding someone willing to do it!

Certainly worth looking into again though!

edc said:
£330k sales less maintenance, taxes, business costs etc doesn't sound like that much money, relatively, for 2 people giving up very well paid jobs.

I would say your income and profitability has limited growth but at 28 you have significant headroom for salary growth.
Yes I do agree in part, however, I dont want a career, I want a business that gives me and the wife the lifestyle and flexability we want. The wife will be quitting work in about 3 years regardless to have sprogs, so the income would half at the point anyway, I guess we are working towards that day.

I enjoy working hard, I enjoy business, and I want out of the rat race. Im ready for a challange.


sidekickdmr

Original Poster:

5,076 posts

206 months

Thursday 27th August 2015
quotequote all
Zoon said:
Looking at your proposal their isn't going to be too much flexibility.
What happens when you want a holiday? Do you just close up for a week or two?
Both my, and my OH parents are already taking quite an interest in assisting with the business, we have a large close knit family, getting cover/assistance wouldn't be an issue.

Saying that, we are not really holiday people, not been away for 4 years!

sidekickdmr

Original Poster:

5,076 posts

206 months

Thursday 27th August 2015
quotequote all
Ok so I've found somewhere amazing that is for rent and for sale, so I'm thinking I could rent it for perhaps 2 years and ensure the business model works, and then purchase it and expand from there.

The rent is just under 4k a month, the purchase is 1.8 mil.

My concerns are, after renting it for 2 years, and showing it makes a viable business:

1. What's to stop the owner turning around, having me as a captive audience, and saying I want 3 million?

2. Going back to the finance, if I have 2 years accounts showing the money it can make, am I likely to get funding on it then? As there is next to no risk, the funding is secured against an asset, and the accounts prove the income.

Good plan?

sidekickdmr

Original Poster:

5,076 posts

206 months

Thursday 27th August 2015
quotequote all
951TSE said:
Have you looked at other areas of the country? For instance a quick search on rightmove gives me these two properties. http://www.rightmove.co.uk/property-for-sale/prope... and http://www.rightmove.co.uk/property-for-sale/prope... which tick most of your boxes.

The reason I suggest them is that as they're in Wales you can get government funding such as http://www.financewales.co.uk/what-we-do/finance-f... and also the dear old EU Who are both keen to improve employment prospects in Wales and are willing to grant and loan to achieve it. So with a slight modification of your plan in that you would employ more staff rather than doing it yourself you may be able to get the funding or at least a larger part of it than going down the traditional bank route, and with more staff running the day to day leaves you and your partner more time for the sales and marketing side of things which will be most important for your success.
laugh

The folley you have linked to is the exact property im looking at now, I remember seeing it on Grand Designs and loving it, great mix of old and new, and certainly has the wow factor, just a shame its only a 6 bed. Lots of outbuildings to convert in the future and land though.

http://www.rightmove.co.uk/property-to-rent/proper...

So yes, that could be a possibility, ill have a look into it!

Thanks smile

sidekickdmr

Original Poster:

5,076 posts

206 months

Thursday 27th August 2015
quotequote all
Frio3535 said:
hajaba123 said:
sidekickdmr said:
Ok so I've found somewhere amazing that is for rent and for sale, so I'm thinking I could rent it for perhaps 2 years and ensure the business model works, and then purchase it and expand from there.

The rent is just under 4k a month, the purchase is 1.8 mil.

My concerns are, after renting it for 2 years, and showing it makes a viable business:

1. What's to stop the owner turning around, having me as a captive audience, and saying I want 3 million?

2. Going back to the finance, if I have 2 years accounts showing the money it can make, am I likely to get funding on it then? As there is next to no risk, the funding is secured against an asset, and the accounts prove the income.

Good plan?
I'll keep it simple as there are lots of words floating round in this thread meaning that the basics are being missed

You want to buy something for £1.8m
You have £200k to put in + whatever profit/loss you incur over 2 years
No bank will lend at 89% loan to value/purchase price for a business proposition like this.
Plus all the associated costs - stamp duty/land tax, legal fees, hoops to jumps through from the bank (Something to factor in regardless of what you buy)...

Edited by Frio3535 on Thursday 27th August 14:09
Yep, all true and all very good points, I'm still being realistic and realising that the only option I really have is to buy somewhere that needs refurbishing/converting and keeping the costs under say 600k

However, if I can build a business on the basis of sub letting, then great, or if I can get funding, then even better.

Basically I have a few different options to explore before I put the idea of a huge place to bed prematurely.