Good investment??? Dirt Factory

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Great team involved and something exciting...
http://dirtfactory.org

Thinking of putting in a small whack of money but going through all of their info; my naivety is stalling me.

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One thing going for it is the velodrome and general cycling 'goings on' in Manchester. I have a feeling it would be a success.... but debating on whether to donate a small amount as gesture or larger...

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I've put a bit in and received the business plan which I'll be going through and showing to some family members who may take a punt on a bigger investment. I really like what they're planning and I used to race downhill mtb back in the day, so it feels right. Good site: Crowdcube. Impressed.

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Thurbs said:

A good investment? I would want to satisfy myself of the following:

• The place isn't open, what is the minimum run rate? What is the breakeven? How is this achievable? What is plan b?
• What is the lease on the building?
• The business case isn't really proven, are there comparable businesses? Skiing domes? Kids play barn things?
• It is very location dependant, what is the local scene like? Lots of disposable money with active A’s & B’s?.
• Seems very seasonal (but then I have taken my kids to paying indoor climbing frames rather than the park at the height of summer), what will happen in the summer?
• They value it today at £660k (which I would argue is a more realistic 3-year target), how is this justified? What are the assets?
• There is no IP. What is the brand worth?
• There is no protection on copy car businesses, what is the plan?
• 6 people are involved and there isn't much skin in the game for them each. How are they going to be motivated?
• Don’t know the background of the people running it. Being a keen cyclist is not the core skills required to start and grow a business. What experience do they have?
• Sporting venues like this seem to involve massive local, central, lottery and charity funds to establish and maintain. How will this be different?

I wish them (the entrepreneurs and investors) every success.

The good news is...... every single point you raise is indeed answered in their plan which is accessible by signing up and requesting it through Crowdcube. Without addressing every point, the people involved are indeed experienced and range from construction to social enterprise. I do feel as though they have the right people involved.

Regarding whether it'll actually work. There's never any way of knowing for certain but I will say that having a foam pit and jumps means that it will attract pros and novices alike who are wanting to practice tricks. Remember also that they will be using real dirt / mud and they also have the suppose of some major brands in mountain biking albeit from a sponsorship point of view. Bell want to provide the hire helmets for instance.

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sjg said:

There's places like Ray's in the US - http://www.raysmtb.com/

http://www.pinkbike.com/news/ray-petro-rays-mtb-in...

Cleveland and Milwaukee tend to get harsher winters than Manchester though - and they don't bother operating the place in the summer.

Interesting. They would need make this place an all round venue with other activities; bike training; race events; workshops; from what I've read: they do plan all of the above. I think Its true; location can make or break a place. Chill Factore near the Trafford centre has been a massive success but I realise that ski domes are a unique proposition.

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JQ said:

LDN said:

Chill Factore near the Trafford centre has been a massive success but I realise that ski domes are a unique proposition.

No it's not. It cost £31m to build in 2007, has never made a profit and was sold to Development Securities in 2015 for £15.5m. In 2013 alone it made an annual loss of £10m.

What is being proposed here is far too niche for such a high cost operation. The concept that hundreds of people a day will pay to go mountain biking on what will be quite small hills (nothing more than the existing indoor BMX track at Manchester Velodrome I suspect) during Spring, Summer and Autumn is rather short sited. To most MTB'ers a major part of the sport is the great outdoors and the fact it's free. The number of people this will appeal to will be tiny - and then how many of them will actually use the facility?

It would be a brilliant thing to have if they could get a rich benefactor to pay for it, or get government funding, but as a way of making money it would get a definite no from me.

I didn't know Chill Factore was such a failure; why is it still running if it's that bad? Always seems busy and the retail shops in there seem to do well - as do the cafes and restaurants.

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veevee said:

Couple of things to add.

Firstly - I think a lot of people are missing the point here, this is not supposed to be indoor 'hill' riding. Trails in MTB terms is referring to dirt jumps, not just riding around in the mud. So essentially in between a motorcross track, and a skate-park, for bikes. BMX as well as MTB. *Just noticed there's an 'XC loop', but I can't see anyone using that.

You can't just rock up to anywhere and ride trails like these - the few that there are, are often hidden away, and a closely guarded secret. They take time and effort to build, and are easily ruined, and also tend to be built on other peoples (unused) land. People would pay to use for the same reasons people pay to use BMX/MX tracks.

So the 'mountain bikers like bad weather, scenery, can do it anywhere/won't travel to ride' arguments, don't work.

But - the market is too niche. If the snowdomes can't do it, neither can they. This is just a couple of guys who've got to october, local trails get wet/cold, think 'lets do a kickstarter'. There's no way this is going anywhere.

Good point, I know in the Alps, the trails are very popular and there are areas that people flock to just to ride them.. the man made trails are fun and as you say easily destroyed / messed with.

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They reached the target and are now fully funded. Will be great to see this happen and follow the outcome. I did put in a small amount for the hell of it but nothing of any real value.

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Whilst the doom and gloom is not without warrant; I still like that there's people with passion that gives things on this scale a go; boom or bust.

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limpsfield said:

LDN said:

Whilst the doom and gloom is not without warrant; I still like that there's people with passion that gives things on this scale a go; boom or bust.

But with other people's money, no?

But like you I think that passion and risk taking should be applauded.

Other people's money indeed.... but still.... I like that people put these cogs in motion.

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JQ said:

LDN said:

Whilst the doom and gloom is not without warrant; I still like that there's people with passion that gives things on this scale a go; boom or bust.

The thread title is "good investment?", had it been "cool idea?" I'd be in total agreement, it does sound pretty cool Would I invest my money, not a chance.

Fair point... never the less; investment aside - and the conversation has evolved - it is a cool idea, we can agree.

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JQ said:

LDN said:

JQ said:

LDN said:

Whilst the doom and gloom is not without warrant; I still like that there's people with passion that gives things on this scale a go; boom or bust.

The thread title is "good investment?", had it been "cool idea?" I'd be in total agreement, it does sound pretty cool Would I invest my money, not a chance.

Fair point... never the less; investment aside - and the conversation has evolved - it is a cool idea, we can agree.

Definitely. I'd go, but it would likely be the kind of thing I'd go to once or twice, not a regular thing.

I fear I feel the same.