Mobile Phone Mast - Rent
Discussion
Already have experience of a rent situation on a mast at work - 25 year lease - quarterly rent - between £4/5k per annum which is fair for these parts. A pretty standard type of contract arrangement.
I also sit on our local playing field committee - we have been approached by one of the companies with a view to put in a mast to fill in a large local void. Knowing that we have a rotten load of equipment in the play park they have come in with £30k upfront for 25 years - no annual rent. This seems a little low to me - but we fully acknowledge we won't get the same type of total offer as we would by going the normal route.
Do any of you have experience of similar situations - or financial costing this situation. What would say £3k per year (£75k over 25 years - with 5 yearly reviews in that term) - equate to in terms of a sole upfront payment ?
Ideally where we would like to be is £25/30k upfront - with £1k per annum rent - and five year reviews ? Does that look reasonable ?
I also sit on our local playing field committee - we have been approached by one of the companies with a view to put in a mast to fill in a large local void. Knowing that we have a rotten load of equipment in the play park they have come in with £30k upfront for 25 years - no annual rent. This seems a little low to me - but we fully acknowledge we won't get the same type of total offer as we would by going the normal route.
Do any of you have experience of similar situations - or financial costing this situation. What would say £3k per year (£75k over 25 years - with 5 yearly reviews in that term) - equate to in terms of a sole upfront payment ?
Ideally where we would like to be is £25/30k upfront - with £1k per annum rent - and five year reviews ? Does that look reasonable ?
hanks for the replies so far. Been a busy day.
The site is an infill coverage area in a slight dip - the network are doing a lot of these having recognised that competitors have much better coverage (if that gives you any clues - V). It is semi rural just outside Scarborough (western side) - but near one of the main road intersections towards town.
A near landowner who has recently had an application (O2) passed at planning has walked away - he decided in the end he didn't want the thick end of £5k per annum and a ''sitting tenant'' as he saw it - think he had previous trouble with another farmer. So really the bulk of other land is only in the developed housing area in the immediate vicinity. The site has great access - the fibre cabinet - just need to assess the 3 phase locality and get past the geo-tech next week. Its also as far away on site as it can be from the kiddies park that needs the investment (150m approx).
My committee colleagues were initially just so overjoyed at the possibility of so much money without going begging to grant makers - they have now changed their tune a bit - but are worried that we don't want to loose the opportunity. I have explained to them the rough correlation between rents and rateable value and shown them actual examples that I know of - hence why we all now think we can do better. I am going to list a load more local sites - and make a few cheeky phone calls to land owners just to confirm the correlation on those masts I already know.
Its just how much do you discount the total return over 25 years due to the large signing on fee (after planning). Hence the idea of a normal contract basis at £75k/25yr(reviewable at each 5 years) - but based instead upon signing on fee plus annual rent (say £25/30k plus £1kpa - reviewable). Is that reasonable - too low or too high ?
All the costs are being paid at their side - using their solicitors - we know - read - read - then again - and then take independent advice on the bits that we want to query. Very impressed with the engineers and initial site sign off - lot of folks - one guy fills in the ''plan'' - everyone !! signs it as agreed - very slick approach to project management and each person had very clear knowledge of planning , trees , etc
If it all fails because we get too greedy - it'll be my grave they dig next ! But good to know you all appear to agree that we are being taken from behind as it currently stands.
The site is an infill coverage area in a slight dip - the network are doing a lot of these having recognised that competitors have much better coverage (if that gives you any clues - V). It is semi rural just outside Scarborough (western side) - but near one of the main road intersections towards town.
A near landowner who has recently had an application (O2) passed at planning has walked away - he decided in the end he didn't want the thick end of £5k per annum and a ''sitting tenant'' as he saw it - think he had previous trouble with another farmer. So really the bulk of other land is only in the developed housing area in the immediate vicinity. The site has great access - the fibre cabinet - just need to assess the 3 phase locality and get past the geo-tech next week. Its also as far away on site as it can be from the kiddies park that needs the investment (150m approx).
My committee colleagues were initially just so overjoyed at the possibility of so much money without going begging to grant makers - they have now changed their tune a bit - but are worried that we don't want to loose the opportunity. I have explained to them the rough correlation between rents and rateable value and shown them actual examples that I know of - hence why we all now think we can do better. I am going to list a load more local sites - and make a few cheeky phone calls to land owners just to confirm the correlation on those masts I already know.
Its just how much do you discount the total return over 25 years due to the large signing on fee (after planning). Hence the idea of a normal contract basis at £75k/25yr(reviewable at each 5 years) - but based instead upon signing on fee plus annual rent (say £25/30k plus £1kpa - reviewable). Is that reasonable - too low or too high ?
All the costs are being paid at their side - using their solicitors - we know - read - read - then again - and then take independent advice on the bits that we want to query. Very impressed with the engineers and initial site sign off - lot of folks - one guy fills in the ''plan'' - everyone !! signs it as agreed - very slick approach to project management and each person had very clear knowledge of planning , trees , etc
If it all fails because we get too greedy - it'll be my grave they dig next ! But good to know you all appear to agree that we are being taken from behind as it currently stands.
A most useful site - thanks.
Certainly helps pinpoint masts I didn't know. And existing sharing arrangements. I can also see the provider name you mention. In terms of matching the sites to ownership I was going to search planning applications on the local council website - often comes up trumps with lots of stuff. Not just ownership but other issues to be aware of.
What is interesting is how many of the Vodafone masts are on public land - roadside verges - especially the newer one's. Looking at our site its public land (but charity owned) - our competion is possibly any appropriate local verge - but there are not many that will fit a 4mx4mx1m anchor pad. There appear to be a higher proportion of masts from other providers on private land in this area. Don't expect the County Council will be much help re their land (even if the Chair is a local aquaintance). But I will still be able to get values from the Business Rating lists - and 2017 figures.
Certainly helps pinpoint masts I didn't know. And existing sharing arrangements. I can also see the provider name you mention. In terms of matching the sites to ownership I was going to search planning applications on the local council website - often comes up trumps with lots of stuff. Not just ownership but other issues to be aware of.
What is interesting is how many of the Vodafone masts are on public land - roadside verges - especially the newer one's. Looking at our site its public land (but charity owned) - our competion is possibly any appropriate local verge - but there are not many that will fit a 4mx4mx1m anchor pad. There appear to be a higher proportion of masts from other providers on private land in this area. Don't expect the County Council will be much help re their land (even if the Chair is a local aquaintance). But I will still be able to get values from the Business Rating lists - and 2017 figures.
Back again - more information
I now understand what is going to happen - all tucked away quietly in discussions.
The Company that is trying to win our business as site finder is not quite what it seems.
Yes - CTIL is in the background.
BUT - the site finder will have a somewhat larger interest !! They would be the one's paying us a ''small'' upfront fee then taking the 25 years of annual rent - and making a killing.
Their accounts show £20M advanced to the UK business by the USA owner - covering the upfront fees to date. Small company accounts of course don't show much but the one brief note in the accounts gave it all away and the penny dropped. Either they have cash - or the bank is advancing it against signed leases.
What I now need to look at is the nearby O2 site that didn't go ahead - see if that was CTIL - and who the agent was - as that was nearly £5k per annum before the landowner pulled out. The downside is that we may not get the upfront lump sum that is so attractive at the moment.
I now understand what is going to happen - all tucked away quietly in discussions.
The Company that is trying to win our business as site finder is not quite what it seems.
Yes - CTIL is in the background.
BUT - the site finder will have a somewhat larger interest !! They would be the one's paying us a ''small'' upfront fee then taking the 25 years of annual rent - and making a killing.
Their accounts show £20M advanced to the UK business by the USA owner - covering the upfront fees to date. Small company accounts of course don't show much but the one brief note in the accounts gave it all away and the penny dropped. Either they have cash - or the bank is advancing it against signed leases.
What I now need to look at is the nearby O2 site that didn't go ahead - see if that was CTIL - and who the agent was - as that was nearly £5k per annum before the landowner pulled out. The downside is that we may not get the upfront lump sum that is so attractive at the moment.
RM said:
What's the name of the site finder, can you say?
Sorry - don't want to say in forum - but discussed with another on here.It turns out the different agent who dealt with the nearby failed farmer project was also involved in another recent installation in town - both had been for CTIL - as ours would be. So I'm giving them a ring tomorrow to assess the potential in an alternative proposal - there appears to be a need from CTIL in the immediate area.
Shared Access - they have a website.
But if there is an interest you do really need to appoint your own agent to negotiate the best result - Irish lady from a business in Sheffield area is who I would have use (depends on your location).
It depends how many other masts are in the area and what coverage they are wanting to fill.
But if there is an interest you do really need to appoint your own agent to negotiate the best result - Irish lady from a business in Sheffield area is who I would have use (depends on your location).
It depends how many other masts are in the area and what coverage they are wanting to fill.
Our mast is a shared arrangement - o2 and Vodafone. A company known as CTIL.
5 miles is a long way though - with 4G the masts need to be much closer. There is a website where you can search all masts. And the coverage map that was produced for our application is very interesting - really highlights the difference between 2 3 & 4G coverageand why more masts are needed.
The killer though either overall or with the size of your return is their potential income. We have about 5000 people living near and a major route in and out of town.
5 miles is a long way though - with 4G the masts need to be much closer. There is a website where you can search all masts. And the coverage map that was produced for our application is very interesting - really highlights the difference between 2 3 & 4G coverageand why more masts are needed.
The killer though either overall or with the size of your return is their potential income. We have about 5000 people living near and a major route in and out of town.
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