Alfa 4C - the reality?????
Discussion
I want to own one, I want to love them, I really do but.......
Now that it's been tested in the UK I keep reading mediocre reports from the journo's.
Too much understeer, no feel through the (unassisted) steering rack, disobedient gearbox, too much turbo lag, engine note lacks character and, most importantly, it's just not fun.
Yes, it looks brilliant and the weight/power numbers are truly impressive but it sounds like it's adding up to less than the sum of its parts.
Are there any glowing recent road test reviews out there?
Now that it's been tested in the UK I keep reading mediocre reports from the journo's.
Too much understeer, no feel through the (unassisted) steering rack, disobedient gearbox, too much turbo lag, engine note lacks character and, most importantly, it's just not fun.
Yes, it looks brilliant and the weight/power numbers are truly impressive but it sounds like it's adding up to less than the sum of its parts.
Are there any glowing recent road test reviews out there?
Fantuzzi said:
jimmy156 said:
I think for 99% of real world road users this car will offer the all the pace, handling, fun and feel-good-factor that you could want for.
I have read the not-so-generous reviews, genuinely wouldn't stop me buying one if i could afford it.
Why though? Because it has a Alfa badge?I have read the not-so-generous reviews, genuinely wouldn't stop me buying one if i could afford it.
The elise is better to drive as a light racer, plus its 14k cheaper in supercharged S form, and the Cayman is more composed and well rounded.
I see your point on 'real world', but surely for 50k you'd want to buy the best sports car you could? Or is it just me that hates the idea of spending 50k on something that's second (if that) best?
The stuff I've read in the latest and more relevant UK tests takes a little reading between the lines to get a real perspective but it leaves me feeling that Alfa seem to have missed the mark in the critical areas of steering, chassis dynamics, power delivery and driver interaction.
A little more exposure and neutral feedback from those in the know might paint a clearer picture. Fingers crossed.
What I've read about the 4C so far has been balanced, thoughtful and insightful, if anything the journo's have held back from using negative terms and instead extolled the finer points, mainly the looks.
Steve Sutcliffe video - mucking about on track in the 4C, Base Cayman and GT86, real world irrelevance but worth a watch if just for his giggling:
http://www.autocar.co.uk/car-video/video-alfa-rome...
Steve Sutcliffe video - mucking about on track in the 4C, Base Cayman and GT86, real world irrelevance but worth a watch if just for his giggling:
http://www.autocar.co.uk/car-video/video-alfa-rome...
jacklewisno1 said:
Quite how a mid engined rear wheel drive light car can understeer so much though is a bit bizarre.
I guess Alfa are covering themselves by engineering understeer into a lightweight, swb, mid engined car that might otherwise let go quite promptly at the limit. It's a fine balance building a chassis with a safety net between twitchy oversteer or plough-on understeer and they may have gone a little too far towards the latter.
We'd all like the choice of an occasional dab of oppo to confirm our status as an armchair driving god but, without a huge bung, it appears that it might not be available here.
Early days though........
errek72 said:
Which leaves the question why UK journo's have the need to negatively compare it with a Cayman and nobody else has. How biased exactly is their opinion?
The Cayman is considered to be the sportscar benchmark at this price point, the 4C has the ingredients to snatch that crown.I can't speak for others but for my £45k I'd be considering either.
If the Alfa became the new yardstick for steering, chassis ability and driver interaction I'd forego the creature comforts of the heavier Cayman and revel in the delights of interacting with a 4C.
If not then that swoopy bodywork/carbon tub/low weight package isn't enough to sway me, after all, why bother with the compromises if they don't add up to a scintillating drive?
Different cars, aimed squarely at enthusiast drivers, very similar pricing, legitimate comparisons.
I see no bias.
errek72 said:
Well, first of all, I am not sure if I missed a crowning here or there but in the international press, which is slightly less Porsche-focused than in UK for whatever reason, I'd say the Lotus Exige V6 is considered as the sportscar benchmark at this price point. Certainly when it comes to handling.
With regards to price, in my (Euro) market, the Cayman is 29% over the price of the 4C. If that is "very similar pricing", I wonder why the Cayman is not constantly compared to the Nissan GT-R, because that is about 29% more expensive as a Cayman in most countries. It may be a bit better at a lot of stuff the Cayman is supposedly good at, just a hunch there.
As this is a UK based forum, with predominantly UK users, for clear comparison can we stick to UK RRP and leave aside the confusion of international pricing anomalies. With regards to price, in my (Euro) market, the Cayman is 29% over the price of the 4C. If that is "very similar pricing", I wonder why the Cayman is not constantly compared to the Nissan GT-R, because that is about 29% more expensive as a Cayman in most countries. It may be a bit better at a lot of stuff the Cayman is supposedly good at, just a hunch there.
Cayman £39,694
Alfa 4C £45,000
'Absolute' top honours will always be contentious but the new Cayman has variously been described as 'The best all round sportscar of our time' 'A blend of driving attributes unmatched at this price level'.
The Exige hasn't had attracted such prose and is now only available in 'S' model which is considerably more expensive (from £53,850) than either Cayman or 4C. Yes it handles well, it's a Lotus after all and their magic chassis wand hasn't failed them for quite some time but, in this readers eyes, as an all round package the Cayman has it licked.
Matt Prior of Autocar:
"Drive a Cayman in entirely standard form – or as close to it as you can get – and the dynamic integrity of the car is clear.
Even without Porsche’s PASM suspension, the basic Cayman’s sporting blend of compliance and body control feels expertly judged.
The damper response reeks of fine-tuning. Initial give turns into the sort of reassuring support that you can lean on in total confidence, and there’s a gradual, seamless transition in between that allows for changeable road surfaces very adroitly indeed. The resulting compromise feels sophisticated.
Guiding the Cayman from corner to corner is an immersive pleasure. There’s a little roll, but only at high effort levels, where it serves to remind you gently that you’re approaching the limits, exactly as a road car should.
The car’s cornering balance is near-perfect: neutral but unerringly predictable on a balanced throttle, and biased ever so slightly towards understeer if you throttle up before you begin easing the lateral load out of the front tyres.
Caymans equipped with Porsche’s torque vectoring option are slightly more adjustable with power as the corner develops, while models with Porsche's adaptive dampers further bolster the Cayman's capabilities, delivering a level of compliancy and control that can be be benchmarked against Lotus and McLaren.
It has a sense of easy precision, instinctive poise and flattering controllability equalled only by handful of sports cars in the world – and eclipsed by precisely none.
Whether you opt for the riotous 2.7-litre version, or the more muscular S model, you won't be disappointed."
That's exactly the kind of exciting stuff I'm itching to read about the 4C.
errek72 said:
Oh, but we can quote UK press snippets about how great the Cayman is here all week, and probably longer.
My guess is you will have that itch for a long time, because if the current UK car media bias is anything to go by (curiously, only after the actual launch, during the Balocco launch it was all flowers, wonder how that works) you will never read anything remotely positive about the 4C coming out of Britain again.
Actually never mind, anyone comparing the 4C to a Cayman has clearly got no clue what the car is about.
I doubt Alfa would care since the car is sold out and their mission of giving the signal to Alfisti that they are back is clearly accomplished.
erreck - your basis for defence of the 4C's ability seems to consist of your perception of bias within the UK's motoring press, I just don't ever see that, they call a spade a spade (or occasionally a trowel when they sit a on the fence awaiting a longer term assessment).My guess is you will have that itch for a long time, because if the current UK car media bias is anything to go by (curiously, only after the actual launch, during the Balocco launch it was all flowers, wonder how that works) you will never read anything remotely positive about the 4C coming out of Britain again.
Actually never mind, anyone comparing the 4C to a Cayman has clearly got no clue what the car is about.
I doubt Alfa would care since the car is sold out and their mission of giving the signal to Alfisti that they are back is clearly accomplished.
Their opinion's appear (to me) neutral, knowledgeable and, in general, well written.
As for "anyone comparing a 4C to a Cayman clearly has got no clue" why's that?
They're a pair of rwd, mid-engined, driver focused, 2 seater sports cars closely matched on performance and price, one is an established benchmark, the other, a lightweight newcomer with a set of ingredients potentially capable of making it a contemporary driving legend.
Or not.....
I can't wait to see, after the initial furor dies down, whether the 4C is as good as its recipe suggests it may be - hence this thread.
It may have sold out but as they're only producing 3,500 globally per annum I would hope so, I strongly support its ongoing success, the world needs more cars like this and continued high sales can only encourage other manufacturers to follow suit, I mean imagine how good a 1000kg, carbon tubbed Cayman would be!
I can understand people's bias towards certain marques but it's not my way, I buy what I like and some of my flawed purchases have been remarkably enjoyable, including my remarkably flawed Alfa GTV.
Modern Alfa's remind me of one the better Top Gear segments where the team were asked to choose between three brands:
"The Alfa Romeo is the worst car here, so which one would you buy?"
"The Alfa Romeo"
"So would I"
"Bad cars can be brilliant"
By every objective yardstick a Golf R32 knocks a 147 GTA into a cocked hat, it's better built, has better handling, it's more comfortable, more refined, immeasurably more reliable blah blah blah - but, for all its turbine smooth punch and grade A accomplishments it's more like your accountant than your quirky lovable partner.
The question I want answered is just how 'quirky' the 4C really is? I can accept a recalcitrant gearshift, challenging handling or the odd cold morning strop but a combination of iffy steering, plough on understeer, too much lag and a lazy transmission would be a 'quirk' too far for me, especially in a car with such focused, exotic build as the 4C.
I can't wait to hear the good and the bad from an honest owner on here.
Modern Alfa's remind me of one the better Top Gear segments where the team were asked to choose between three brands:
"The Alfa Romeo is the worst car here, so which one would you buy?"
"The Alfa Romeo"
"So would I"
"Bad cars can be brilliant"
By every objective yardstick a Golf R32 knocks a 147 GTA into a cocked hat, it's better built, has better handling, it's more comfortable, more refined, immeasurably more reliable blah blah blah - but, for all its turbine smooth punch and grade A accomplishments it's more like your accountant than your quirky lovable partner.
The question I want answered is just how 'quirky' the 4C really is? I can accept a recalcitrant gearshift, challenging handling or the odd cold morning strop but a combination of iffy steering, plough on understeer, too much lag and a lazy transmission would be a 'quirk' too far for me, especially in a car with such focused, exotic build as the 4C.
I can't wait to hear the good and the bad from an honest owner on here.
Fantuzzi said:
Funny how pretty much no one has mentioned the Elise S in this thread, the Cayman is a silly comparison apparently, but when I posted up some scans of the 4c vs the elise, no one said anything. Perhaps the Cayman bashing is just to hide that the Elise S is seen as the better light sports car?
Yep, I agree, the Elise has become quite obscure and all we seem to hear about Lotus is bad news and future plans. The Elise S2 is now 13 years old and not that much different from when it was launched. The Elise S costs £40,000, at that price you'd have to be a real Lotus purist to overlook the competition and with only 250 cars sold in 2013 the buying public obviously agrees.
Journo's have pitted the Elise against the 4C and Cayman and the general consensus has been that it's a better drivers car than the Alfa but more compromised.
Fantuzzi said:
True, although Id say the elise has changed a lot from s1 to s3 - but that's splitting hairs!
The Elise starts at 28k, 26-7 for the stripped version, 35k for the supercharged.
Now, Id say that pretty cheap for a car that capable of low 4 to 60, 145mph top end, with a brilliant chassis - but I think the times have changed, as have lotus's image, cars are techy these days that the elise even when specced up, seems a world apart, perhaps in 96 the s1 seemed less of a radical departure from other sportscars.
The 4c was never a cayman rival in terms of its style of sports car, but it should have, could have, beaten the elise S, if the steering was more consistence and gave more feel.
I meant that the Elise hadn't changed much from the S2 (2001 onwards) to current day, only a facelift to MK3 and minor bits and bobs.The Elise starts at 28k, 26-7 for the stripped version, 35k for the supercharged.
Now, Id say that pretty cheap for a car that capable of low 4 to 60, 145mph top end, with a brilliant chassis - but I think the times have changed, as have lotus's image, cars are techy these days that the elise even when specced up, seems a world apart, perhaps in 96 the s1 seemed less of a radical departure from other sportscars.
The 4c was never a cayman rival in terms of its style of sports car, but it should have, could have, beaten the elise S, if the steering was more consistence and gave more feel.
Yes, they start at £27k but you only get 135bhp and 118ftlb torque for that money.
The real contender in the Elise range for the Alfa is the supercharged S model and you've only got to sniff the options list and becomes a £40k car (£37,500+ORC basic).
It steers (much) better than the 4C, much better than just about anything and Lotus's chassis magicians did some of their best ever work but it's not as desirable as the 4C, nothing like, then again, what is?
If Harris and the other journo's talk to Alfa or if Alfa take notice of what's being written there's a good chance that changes will be made at some stage in the near future.
Early adopter's have to take a risk that the finished product may be slightly lacking in certain areas, for instance my Amarok has candles for headlights, the gearbox from a 40 ton truck and a noisy engine, within 10 months VW bought out revisions to new models that completely solved those issues.
Tweaking the steering, tuning the gearbox calibrations, reducing turbo lag and fettling the chassis towards neutrality may not be the work of a moment for Alfa Romeo but it isn't rocket science either. This car deserves to be absolutely brilliant, it has all the ingredients and minor changes can make it that way.
I hope we get to read about Harris's UK drive soon.
Early adopter's have to take a risk that the finished product may be slightly lacking in certain areas, for instance my Amarok has candles for headlights, the gearbox from a 40 ton truck and a noisy engine, within 10 months VW bought out revisions to new models that completely solved those issues.
Tweaking the steering, tuning the gearbox calibrations, reducing turbo lag and fettling the chassis towards neutrality may not be the work of a moment for Alfa Romeo but it isn't rocket science either. This car deserves to be absolutely brilliant, it has all the ingredients and minor changes can make it that way.
I hope we get to read about Harris's UK drive soon.
Doesn't sound great in this clip but there's no doubting its speed.
0 - 100mph in 10 seconds and the way it keeps pulling hard beyond 125mph (the natural aerodynamic slow down point for most hot hatches) is very impressive.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gJ5gFIQ4vBg
0 - 100mph in 10 seconds and the way it keeps pulling hard beyond 125mph (the natural aerodynamic slow down point for most hot hatches) is very impressive.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gJ5gFIQ4vBg
thegreenhell said:
Not everybody judges a car's worth based on the opinions of Chris Harris
New Chris Harris Alfa 4C vid 
http://www.pistonheads.com/gassing/topic.asp?h=0&a...
ewolg said:
"Harris hinted at some issues with our 4C test car"That example must be a pre-production model, have poor geo or been ragged to death by the Top Gear brigade - sports suspension or not customer cars surely can't drive that badly?
And more.
Exige S vs Cayman vs Alfa 4C
http://www.topgear.com/uk/photos/alfa-romeo-4c-por...
Similar conclusion to PH's on the 4C.
Damn you Alfa!
Exige S vs Cayman vs Alfa 4C
http://www.topgear.com/uk/photos/alfa-romeo-4c-por...
Similar conclusion to PH's on the 4C.
Damn you Alfa!
Dblue said:
The first piece was NOT anything like as severe test for the 4C,It was a launch drive.
No one really thinks the 4C is a real rival or even remotely like a 458 or a Zonda. (Both of which are universally lauded by the UK press despite being Italian )
The second was way way more of an examination. You are surely familiar with ECOTY, its got years and years of massive credibility with several pretty brave verdicts over the years.
The car didn't do great back to back against a talented bunch of opponents , its not quite the game changer we all hoped it would be.
But its still a breath of fresh air, looks superb and shows a commitment to the right principles
Well said.No one really thinks the 4C is a real rival or even remotely like a 458 or a Zonda. (Both of which are universally lauded by the UK press despite being Italian )
The second was way way more of an examination. You are surely familiar with ECOTY, its got years and years of massive credibility with several pretty brave verdicts over the years.
The car didn't do great back to back against a talented bunch of opponents , its not quite the game changer we all hoped it would be.
But its still a breath of fresh air, looks superb and shows a commitment to the right principles
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