Mandela Dies. RIP
Discussion
jayb289 said:
The people who continue to say he killed innocent women and children need to stop the false humanitarian shtick. If the death of innocence was the real issue then most of your contempt would be towards the apartheid regime as they killed alot more, but Of course what they really mean is innocent white women and children. No mention or care of the blacks who died needlessly at the hands of that brutal regime.
If the roles were reversed in Britain today and David Cameron carried out the same acts against the minority arabs(for example) who are running the country, everyone would call him a hero! there would be songs about ole David fighting fire with fire and not taking oppression lying down.
The fact is, if the man was a murdering terrorist hell bent on destruction then he would have and could have with the snap of his finger have the white population of South Africa butchered like turkeys on thanksgiving. Civil War would have destroyed that beautiful country, the whites in South Africa know this and believe it or not it could be argued they love him even more than the blacks because of this, because some of the black population wanted revenge. The same people who i see cheering on the firebombing of mosques in revenge for Lee Rigby are the same people now pretending to be above violence haha.
40% of those he murdered were black. I don't consider them worth any more or less than his white victims. Maybe you should examine your own prejudices?If the roles were reversed in Britain today and David Cameron carried out the same acts against the minority arabs(for example) who are running the country, everyone would call him a hero! there would be songs about ole David fighting fire with fire and not taking oppression lying down.
The fact is, if the man was a murdering terrorist hell bent on destruction then he would have and could have with the snap of his finger have the white population of South Africa butchered like turkeys on thanksgiving. Civil War would have destroyed that beautiful country, the whites in South Africa know this and believe it or not it could be argued they love him even more than the blacks because of this, because some of the black population wanted revenge. The same people who i see cheering on the firebombing of mosques in revenge for Lee Rigby are the same people now pretending to be above violence haha.
Asterix said:
tali1 said:
Asterix said:
Here he is with a couple of happy go lucky cheeky Irish types that share his ideology and methods of achieving a united country...
And the Queen and countless UK/USA leaders have never shook hands with leaders with blood on their hands?
The Adams and Mcguiness of today are a million times better than the Adams and Mcguiness of the past.
Imho.
Rollcage said:
He certainly had a long time to contemplate if violence was the answer.
Yeah, he was offered the chance to go free if he renounced violence,(at least once) he did not do so. The armed branch of the ANC he was a driving force in, went on to commit multiple murders prior to his release (100+)
He obviously thought murdering civilians would get him what he wanted.To a certain extent, it did.
tali1 said:
Asterix said:
tali1 said:
Asterix said:
Here he is with a couple of happy go lucky cheeky Irish types that share his ideology and methods of achieving a united country...
And the Queen and countless UK/USA leaders have never shook hands with leaders with blood on their hands?
The Adams and Mcguiness of today are a million times better than the Adams and Mcguiness of the past.
Imho.
Gerry Adams said:
I first met Nelson Mandela in June 1995. It was almost a year after the IRA cessation and just over a year since the first post-apartheid election, which returned Madiba as president of a free South Africa. Several colleagues and I had travelled there at the invitation of the ANC to speak to senior figures from that party who had been centrally involved in the negotiations.
The ANC also arranged meetings with representatives from the National party, General Constand Viljoen, leader of the Freedom Front party, and Niel Barnard, the head of the apartheid regime's National Intelligence Service.
In developing the Sinn Féin peace strategy towards the end of the 1980s and into the early 1990s, Irish republicans had recognised the importance of the international community as an ally for making progress in a peace process and as a source of inspiration and information for our own endeavours.
While much of our focus was on America, which had the greatest concentration of the Irish diaspora, Irish republicans had always had a close affinity with the struggle in South Africa. In my youth I had taken part in protests against the visit of the Springbok rugby team and I was a long-time supporter of the anti-apartheid movement. The purpose of our trip in 1995 was to learn the lessons of South Africa's approach to conflict resolution and to brief people on the difficulties in our process.
Walter Sisulu, Cyril Ramaphosa, Thabo Mbeki, Cheryl Carolus and many other leaders of the ANC made us very welcome. However, for all in our group the highlight of our visit was the meeting with Madiba. He was self-effacing in his humour, relaxed and focused. As ever the British government, and sections of the British media, had made much about whether or not there would be a handshake, a photograph and so on. The Major government had lobbied hard for Mandela not to meet me. We shook hands in his office: "Ah, comrade Gerry," he said. "I'll not wash my hand for a week."
I met Madiba many times afterwards. Even after leaving the presidency, his mind was razor-sharp, and he was as conversant with the twists and turns of our process as he was with the affairs of his own continent. Nelson Mandela remains one of my heroes and was, in my view, the greatest political leader of our time.
The ANC also arranged meetings with representatives from the National party, General Constand Viljoen, leader of the Freedom Front party, and Niel Barnard, the head of the apartheid regime's National Intelligence Service.
In developing the Sinn Féin peace strategy towards the end of the 1980s and into the early 1990s, Irish republicans had recognised the importance of the international community as an ally for making progress in a peace process and as a source of inspiration and information for our own endeavours.
While much of our focus was on America, which had the greatest concentration of the Irish diaspora, Irish republicans had always had a close affinity with the struggle in South Africa. In my youth I had taken part in protests against the visit of the Springbok rugby team and I was a long-time supporter of the anti-apartheid movement. The purpose of our trip in 1995 was to learn the lessons of South Africa's approach to conflict resolution and to brief people on the difficulties in our process.
Walter Sisulu, Cyril Ramaphosa, Thabo Mbeki, Cheryl Carolus and many other leaders of the ANC made us very welcome. However, for all in our group the highlight of our visit was the meeting with Madiba. He was self-effacing in his humour, relaxed and focused. As ever the British government, and sections of the British media, had made much about whether or not there would be a handshake, a photograph and so on. The Major government had lobbied hard for Mandela not to meet me. We shook hands in his office: "Ah, comrade Gerry," he said. "I'll not wash my hand for a week."
I met Madiba many times afterwards. Even after leaving the presidency, his mind was razor-sharp, and he was as conversant with the twists and turns of our process as he was with the affairs of his own continent. Nelson Mandela remains one of my heroes and was, in my view, the greatest political leader of our time.
Cheese Mechanic said:
Oakey said:
Surely a more relevant comparison is Gerry Adams? I've heard at least three times on the news on Radio 1 the BBC say;
"The ANC killed civilians with bombs in shopping malls and fast food restaurants but the brutal apartheid regime refused to give in"
Oh well, so long as it's a brutal regime then I guess that makes it okay!
That line the BBC keep trotting out could easily read as;
"The IRA killed civilians with bombs in streets and pubs but the brutal British Government refused to give in"
A good comment and entirely correct. Mandela conspired and took part in the random murder of civilians."The ANC killed civilians with bombs in shopping malls and fast food restaurants but the brutal apartheid regime refused to give in"
Oh well, so long as it's a brutal regime then I guess that makes it okay!
That line the BBC keep trotting out could easily read as;
"The IRA killed civilians with bombs in streets and pubs but the brutal British Government refused to give in"
He was offered release from prison on at least one occasion if he renounced violence, he refused to do so.
He was a man of violence when it suited him, yet alleged a man of peace when things were going his way, entirely akin to
Mc Guiness and Adams.
So, when Adams or more closely (in several respects) McGuiness do shuffle off will there be similar testimonies to how they overcame violence and sectarian difference and selflessly/bravely accepted compromise to find peace, leading to a new, fairer democracy?
Or will the majority view them as murdering scum who got away with it thanks to the luxury of realpolitik?
AnonSpoilSport said:
I was musing over this in the car this afternoon, listening to one eulogy after another and none referencing any of the darker things he did/done by his cohorts and the parallels with the IRA/Sinn Fein.
Good. He's only just died, and I think it's right to show some respect, but I would like to see a subjective documentary (not BBC) of his life after the dust has settled. MX7 said:
AnonSpoilSport said:
I was musing over this in the car this afternoon, listening to one eulogy after another and none referencing any of the darker things he did/done by his cohorts and the parallels with the IRA/Sinn Fein.
Good. He's only just died, and I think it's right to show some respect, but I would like to see a subjective documentary (not BBC) of his life after the dust has settled. 
mythos said:
Corpulent Tosser said:
tali1 said:
Mandela was more sinned against than sinner.
The Adams and Mcguiness of today are a million times better than the Adams and Mcguiness of the past.
Imho.
How was Mandela sinned against ?The Adams and Mcguiness of today are a million times better than the Adams and Mcguiness of the past.
Imho.
My view on this is he became a statesman, but was a murdering b
d.mythos said:
Umm, do you know how non-whites were treated under apartheid?
The oddity is that Brits think of apartheid as a purely black/white issue. The truth was very different. There were many different racial groups of "non-whites" and for the most part they couldn't stand the sight of each other. For example,- Various African tribes, each struggling for supremacy
- Cape coloureds - people of mixed race dating back hundreds of years, principally around the port of Capetown
- Asians - big and old established community
- Orientals - centuries of trade
The simple "black/white" view is nonsense. That was far nearer the truth in southern states of USA than in much of SA. Albeit USA never made the mistake of having segregation deeply enshrined in its legal system. Very similar in practice though.
Gassing Station | News, Politics & Economics | Top of Page | What's New | My Stuff