Greek Bail-out?
Discussion
"Has Germany just killed the dream of a European superstate?
So after weeks of Euro-bluff it looks ever more like an IMF rescue for Greece after all, and hence for any other eurozone nation driven to ruin by the wrong monetary policy."
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/comment/ambrose...
Can the eurozone withstand the political stress testing that it's about to undergo?
So after weeks of Euro-bluff it looks ever more like an IMF rescue for Greece after all, and hence for any other eurozone nation driven to ruin by the wrong monetary policy."
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/comment/ambrose...
Can the eurozone withstand the political stress testing that it's about to undergo?
Hmm, lets blame Germany for the problem:
""By speculating on Greek bonds and allowing credit institutions to participate in this squalid game, some people are making money," said deputy premier Theodoros Pangalos.
"As long as southern Europe is under fire and the euro is falling , they (the Germans) can win massive exports in the rest of the world," he said.
It is the second time in a month that Mr Pangalos has lashed out at Germany. In February he said Berlin had no right to lecture Greece because the Nazis had stolen his country’s gold reserves and caused the death of 300,000 people during the Axis occupation."
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/financetopics/f...
""By speculating on Greek bonds and allowing credit institutions to participate in this squalid game, some people are making money," said deputy premier Theodoros Pangalos.
"As long as southern Europe is under fire and the euro is falling , they (the Germans) can win massive exports in the rest of the world," he said.
It is the second time in a month that Mr Pangalos has lashed out at Germany. In February he said Berlin had no right to lecture Greece because the Nazis had stolen his country’s gold reserves and caused the death of 300,000 people during the Axis occupation."
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/financetopics/f...
Money, or rather the lack of it, tends to being the end to most relationships.Well if you're not happy with the returns from your post office account how about some nice Greek bonds?
"A sudden sell-off in Greek sovereign bonds yesterday has pushed up the cost of borrowing for the embattled state to record levels, casting doubts on its ability to refinance up to €15 billion of debt over the next two months.
The surge in Greek bond yields, which reached 7.1 per cent, prompted the Finance Minister to warn that the present interest rate burden was unsustainable.
Credit analysts said that soaring interest rates, if they were reflected in the cost of future fund-raisings, would have a material impact on the outlook for Greece’s budget. Indeed, Mr Papaconstantinou conceded yesterday: “Interest rates are very high and it’s clear we cannot continue like this for a long time.”
However, analysts said the real concern was the sudden nature of the sell-off, which raised the question whether the Government would find buyers for its debt. “The interest rate [of 7 per cent] is materially worse, but the greater concern is volatility. Greece needs to access capital markets in order to refinance maturing debt. It is harder to issue bonds when the market is volatile; investors get nervous,” Brian Coulton, a director of Fitch Ratings, said.
Greece needs to finance the repayment of some €23 billion of maturing bonds over the next month or two. Two recent bond issues raised €10 billion, suggesting another €10 billion in Greek paper will hit the market in coming weeks. However, the second issuance of €5 billion in seven-year notes last week provided a warning of diminishing investor appetite for Greek debt. The fund-raising was only just covered with €6.25 billion bid for the €5 billion in notes on offer.
The point was rammed home by the market last week when the Greek Government attempted to reopen an existing issue maturing in 2022 by offering a further €1 billion to the market. Only €340 million was raised.
http://business.timesonline.co.uk/tol/business/eco...
"A sudden sell-off in Greek sovereign bonds yesterday has pushed up the cost of borrowing for the embattled state to record levels, casting doubts on its ability to refinance up to €15 billion of debt over the next two months.
The surge in Greek bond yields, which reached 7.1 per cent, prompted the Finance Minister to warn that the present interest rate burden was unsustainable.
Credit analysts said that soaring interest rates, if they were reflected in the cost of future fund-raisings, would have a material impact on the outlook for Greece’s budget. Indeed, Mr Papaconstantinou conceded yesterday: “Interest rates are very high and it’s clear we cannot continue like this for a long time.”
However, analysts said the real concern was the sudden nature of the sell-off, which raised the question whether the Government would find buyers for its debt. “The interest rate [of 7 per cent] is materially worse, but the greater concern is volatility. Greece needs to access capital markets in order to refinance maturing debt. It is harder to issue bonds when the market is volatile; investors get nervous,” Brian Coulton, a director of Fitch Ratings, said.
Greece needs to finance the repayment of some €23 billion of maturing bonds over the next month or two. Two recent bond issues raised €10 billion, suggesting another €10 billion in Greek paper will hit the market in coming weeks. However, the second issuance of €5 billion in seven-year notes last week provided a warning of diminishing investor appetite for Greek debt. The fund-raising was only just covered with €6.25 billion bid for the €5 billion in notes on offer.
The point was rammed home by the market last week when the Greek Government attempted to reopen an existing issue maturing in 2022 by offering a further €1 billion to the market. Only €340 million was raised.
http://business.timesonline.co.uk/tol/business/eco...
They need to leave the Eurozone and get stop their country being crippled by the strong Euro.
Obviously, it's not that simple. But the ability to devalue their currency, even if they cannot devalue their debt would be a start.
Fing is, we all know what happens if they do this. Which is why it won't happen.
Obviously, it's not that simple. But the ability to devalue their currency, even if they cannot devalue their debt would be a start.
Fing is, we all know what happens if they do this. Which is why it won't happen.
tangent police said:
They need to leave the Eurozone and get stop their country being crippled by the strong Euro.
Obviously, it's not that simple. But the ability to devalue their currency, even if they cannot devalue their debt would be a start.
Wouldn't that just make the problem worse (the debt would still be in Euro even if Greece left the Euro)?Obviously, it's not that simple. But the ability to devalue their currency, even if they cannot devalue their debt would be a start.
Either the Germans cough up or the Greeks will default.
The thing is once one defaults, how long before Spain, Iceland, Ireland, etc, join in? Big, big, exciting house of cards.
This is great and I love it. I actually relish the thought of the whole sorry, left wing eutopian expensive political experiment coming slowly and spectacularly unhinged.
I hate the Socialist Superstate Ideology and perverse way it's instigators have facilitated it in the most anti-democratic, anti-communitarian, forceful fascist way imaginable. It was always a perverse story book waiting for the aids ridden vicar to f
k all the kids in the village.
And now the machine gun of economics is going to cut the motherfker in half.
I say "Good Job too".
I hate the Socialist Superstate Ideology and perverse way it's instigators have facilitated it in the most anti-democratic, anti-communitarian, forceful fascist way imaginable. It was always a perverse story book waiting for the aids ridden vicar to f
k all the kids in the village. And now the machine gun of economics is going to cut the motherf
ker in half. I say "Good Job too".
tangent police said:
This is great and I love it. I actually relish the thought of the whole sorry, left wing eutopian expensive political experiment coming slowly and spectacularly unhinged.
I hate the Socialist Superstate Ideology and perverse way it's instigators have facilitated it in the most anti-democratic, anti-communitarian, forceful fascist way imaginable. It was always a perverse story book waiting for the aids ridden vicar to fk all the kids in the village.
And now the machine gun of economics is going to cut the motherfker in half.
I say "Good Job too".
Heh! Put it like that I couldn't agree more!I hate the Socialist Superstate Ideology and perverse way it's instigators have facilitated it in the most anti-democratic, anti-communitarian, forceful fascist way imaginable. It was always a perverse story book waiting for the aids ridden vicar to f
k all the kids in the village. And now the machine gun of economics is going to cut the motherf
ker in half. I say "Good Job too".
Now just how are we shafted with the GBP and the Lisbon treaty? Should I buy more gold?
Fittster said:
tangent police said:
They need to leave the Eurozone and get stop their country being crippled by the strong Euro.
Obviously, it's not that simple. But the ability to devalue their currency, even if they cannot devalue their debt would be a start.
Wouldn't that just make the problem worse (the debt would still be in Euro even if Greece left the Euro)?Obviously, it's not that simple. But the ability to devalue their currency, even if they cannot devalue their debt would be a start.
Either the Germans cough up or the Greeks will default.
The thing is once one defaults, how long before Spain, Iceland, Ireland, etc, join in? Big, big, exciting house of cards.
Of course this could send the Euro into a spin if investors start thinking about Italy, Spain and Portugal, but that's their problem.
Dupont666 said:
so when is the uk going to join the Euro?
What Euro? Wait for a while, it's only just beginning to unravel.What kind of warped thinking gave the Euro-stalinists the idea that grouping together a bunch of nations where you can barely organise building projects in a timely and logical fashion - let alone a credible, national economic policy - was going to be a roaring success?
Digga said:
Dupont666 said:
so when is the uk going to join the Euro?
What Euro? Wait for a while, it's only just beginning to unravel.What kind of warped thinking gave the Euro-stalinists the idea that grouping together a bunch of nations where you can barely organise building projects in a timely and logical fashion - let alone a credible, national economic policy - was going to be a roaring success?
talk to the capitalist people and they will tell you that every country is in favour of their own and every politician is just lining his/her own pockets and then getting the f
k out.CDP said:
Fittster said:
tangent police said:
They need to leave the Eurozone and get stop their country being crippled by the strong Euro.
Obviously, it's not that simple. But the ability to devalue their currency, even if they cannot devalue their debt would be a start.
Wouldn't that just make the problem worse (the debt would still be in Euro even if Greece left the Euro)?Obviously, it's not that simple. But the ability to devalue their currency, even if they cannot devalue their debt would be a start.
Either the Germans cough up or the Greeks will default.
The thing is once one defaults, how long before Spain, Iceland, Ireland, etc, join in? Big, big, exciting house of cards.
Of course this could send the Euro into a spin if investors start thinking about Italy, Spain and Portugal, but that's their problem.
Digga said:
What kind of warped thinking gave the Euro-stalinists the idea that grouping together a bunch of nations where you can barely organise building projects in a timely and logical fashion - let alone a credible, national economic policy - was going to be a roaring success?
If your economy is small and weak and your national government is below average in quality, you have something to gain from joining a larger entity.If you believe that your economy is strong and self-sufficient and that you have an excellent government, you have nothing to gain by joining.
Underlying all the "take my pounds from my cold dead hand" rhetoric, these cultural attitudes perhaps explain why the British have not joined the Eurozone whereas the PIIGS did, enthusiastically.
I was pretty convinced that Bliar was trying to chuck us into the Eurozone asap.
As with all the countries, the whole elephantine push towards the socialist superstate is in fact a sprint away from the very real and (what they consider) unsavoury political "options". I gather Ze Chermans have some nasties which are neither socialist or cuddly and the Frogs do as well. The best things the socialists (probably badged as liberal democrats like our lot) can do is run and run and fix solid a socialist structure to banish these awful alternatives to nothingness forever.
The bulldozer has lost it's way a bit, despite what the media say, the PIIGS situation speaks volumes about what happens to st euregions when the € gets too strong. It's like priapism, a life threatening hardon.
The UK has managed to anally rape itself so hard, it's sphincter is destroyed beyond being a Eurozone member for the forseeable future. The hilarity is that whilst they are keen on taking enough money from us to be THE SECOND BIGGEST CONTRIBUTOR, we don't pass the poxy tests to join. There is a snag which looms on the horizon and they know it. Any move towards the Eurozone will cause all sorts of hell up which will threaten the stability further.
The UK has the 5th biggest economy in the world. Since we aren't doing very much over here, it suggests that a lot of that GDP must be something to do with companies enjoying the rather nice corporation tax structure that the UK has. If they go fking with this setup, they are fking with their second biggest source of income.
If the UK taxes are changed, the chances are the new structure will be more like the unfavourable EU countries. If they fk with this, the GDP will fk off out of the EU. This could threaten the project, short term.
I'm not sure how they can have their cake and eat it. I suspect that it will be a very very gradual process so as to not upset the integrity of the EU. It will gradually become more of an entity, less hetrogenous and then when all the companies fk off abroad, at least we'll have our socialist superstate run by all those people who know best from their lovely comfortable nests. Animal farm again.....
The situation has been upset by the PIIGS and I don't imagine that the Germans are too keen at devaluing the € on purpose to give the PIIGS a chance to get some of their own GDP back.
It's not about a homogenous Europe, facilitating economic growth and mutual wellbeing it's about forming a German-Franco union of social bigness.
1. Germany wants to be the financial/industrial centre of something bigger.
2. France wants to be the centre of the political/world stage game.
3. All the socialists are truly frightened of unsavoury democratic options.
That's the way I see it and mad it may be, that is how it is, I reckon.
I wonder if we'll see a relaxed attitude to the UK joining the € and greater federation/homogenisation as politics is in a pickle and it's a perfect time to make this sort of hay. There are perhaps political and economic threats to the project in that countries are saying "Is this such a good idea?"
It needs to be pushed swiftly along beyond another point of no return.
One thing is certain, we will not have one iota of a say in what happens.
Which is why I think we should hang the fkers from lamp posts should it happen.
As with all the countries, the whole elephantine push towards the socialist superstate is in fact a sprint away from the very real and (what they consider) unsavoury political "options". I gather Ze Chermans have some nasties which are neither socialist or cuddly and the Frogs do as well. The best things the socialists (probably badged as liberal democrats like our lot) can do is run and run and fix solid a socialist structure to banish these awful alternatives to nothingness forever.
The bulldozer has lost it's way a bit, despite what the media say, the PIIGS situation speaks volumes about what happens to s
t euregions when the € gets too strong. It's like priapism, a life threatening hardon. The UK has managed to anally rape itself so hard, it's sphincter is destroyed beyond being a Eurozone member for the forseeable future. The hilarity is that whilst they are keen on taking enough money from us to be THE SECOND BIGGEST CONTRIBUTOR, we don't pass the poxy tests to join. There is a snag which looms on the horizon and they know it. Any move towards the Eurozone will cause all sorts of hell up which will threaten the stability further.
The UK has the 5th biggest economy in the world. Since we aren't doing very much over here, it suggests that a lot of that GDP must be something to do with companies enjoying the rather nice corporation tax structure that the UK has. If they go f
king with this setup, they are fking with their second biggest source of income. If the UK taxes are changed, the chances are the new structure will be more like the unfavourable EU countries. If they f
k with this, the GDP will fk off out of the EU. This could threaten the project, short term. I'm not sure how they can have their cake and eat it. I suspect that it will be a very very gradual process so as to not upset the integrity of the EU. It will gradually become more of an entity, less hetrogenous and then when all the companies f
k off abroad, at least we'll have our socialist superstate run by all those people who know best from their lovely comfortable nests. Animal farm again.....The situation has been upset by the PIIGS and I don't imagine that the Germans are too keen at devaluing the € on purpose to give the PIIGS a chance to get some of their own GDP back.
It's not about a homogenous Europe, facilitating economic growth and mutual wellbeing it's about forming a German-Franco union of social bigness.
1. Germany wants to be the financial/industrial centre of something bigger.
2. France wants to be the centre of the political/world stage game.
3. All the socialists are truly frightened of unsavoury democratic options.
That's the way I see it and mad it may be, that is how it is, I reckon.
I wonder if we'll see a relaxed attitude to the UK joining the € and greater federation/homogenisation as politics is in a pickle and it's a perfect time to make this sort of hay. There are perhaps political and economic threats to the project in that countries are saying "Is this such a good idea?"
It needs to be pushed swiftly along beyond another point of no return.
One thing is certain, we will not have one iota of a say in what happens.
Which is why I think we should hang the f
kers from lamp posts should it happen. HundredthIdiot said:
Digga said:
What kind of warped thinking gave the Euro-stalinists the idea that grouping together a bunch of nations where you can barely organise building projects in a timely and logical fashion - let alone a credible, national economic policy - was going to be a roaring success?
If your economy is small and weak and your national government is below average in quality, you have something to gain from joining a larger entity.If you believe that your economy is strong and self-sufficient and that you have an excellent government, you have nothing to gain by joining.
Underlying all the "take my pounds from my cold dead hand" rhetoric, these cultural attitudes perhaps explain why the British have not joined the Eurozone whereas the PIIGS did, enthusiastically.
)Digga said:
Which, other than the small issue of the integration of East Germany, baffles me as to why Germany got involved. (Other than to stop itself invading the other nations again. )
In my own personal experience, the Germans just love big complicated things; pragmatic they are not. )The Germans had a big idea.
The French thought the Germans would do all the work.
The Brits couldn't be arsed.
Everyone else went along for the expenses.
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