RE: Wrong Type Of Glue Blamed For 458 Italia Fires
Discussion
plg said:
Otto said:
Yes, I understand that, but how often do they sit in gridlock traffic around Maranello?? Road testing is all well and good, but it is extremely difficult to experience EVERY type of condition a vehicle can be put through. My point was that this is even more likely with Ferrari, who probably focus very heavily on the 'fast driving' rather than sitting in traffic (and I am just using this as an example)
Fair point, but most cars undergo extreme testing - both static and under load - they subcontract or run their own environment chambers for static testing that can do hot/dry, hot/humid, cold/dry, cold/damp, etc to some pretty far extremes (pretty much any range)My guess would be a new glue type that doesn't match the formulation used in the R&D phase, or it was incorrectly applied (wrong glue to wrong place).
To the other posters - nothing wrong with using glue (instead of fasteners). If you don't like the idea then don't fly on a modern plane!
Guvernator said:
I disagree about the testing. As mentioned above, modern car manufacturers endurance testing can be very rigourous and test to incredibly high levels. This happens on every car from your basic Fiesta all the way up to supercars. It is abosolutely correct in that with any product you will not be able to 100% test or account for every stupid and idiotic thing a consumer can put your product through, however italian cars and Ferrari's in particular seem to suffer from more "problems" then most in this respect.
Now you could argue that a highly strung supercar will be more susceptible to things going wrong then a Fiesta, however surely this should mean that they are even more closely scrutinised and tested, especially at the price you are paying. Personally I am always very dissapointed when I hear about this kind of thing. It just reaks of someone cost cutting or cutting corners at some point down the line, not what you expect from a £150K supercar.
You're joking aren't you? Ferrari's development budget will be buttons compared to your average supermini. After all they're treated like children rather than transport by most of their drivers.Now you could argue that a highly strung supercar will be more susceptible to things going wrong then a Fiesta, however surely this should mean that they are even more closely scrutinised and tested, especially at the price you are paying. Personally I am always very dissapointed when I hear about this kind of thing. It just reaks of someone cost cutting or cutting corners at some point down the line, not what you expect from a £150K supercar.
Regardless, they'll have definitely done plenty of testing in low speed, high ambient temperature conditions. My money's also on a design change after this major testing phase. I'd put good money on a glue compound change.
John Cleese ---> TomTom ----> 458 ----> There is something I think I ought to mention...fire, FA FA FA fire....FIRE
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vrAKFakK3i8
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vrAKFakK3i8
Before anyone gets any ideas...I don't work for Ferrari, but I do work as a design engineer for an automotive manufacturer. All modern cars are subject to hugely extensive development programmes, however, it simply isn't realistic/possible to test absolutely every possible permutation. It is unfortunate that sometimes, problems occur in service that did not occur in testing, and in fact, it's often impossible to get these things to happen again during testing even when you know they happen in the hands of a customer.
As strange as it sounds, cars like Ferrari's are often more prone to this type of issue as it's significantly more costly to test the cars in the first place. If you think about it, even at the final verification stage, you would be able to test maybe 10 Fiestas for every 1 458. This does not mean that the engineering or quality is any worse on a Ferrari than a Fiesta. It's simply the different between a mass produced shopping car and a supercar. It's much easier to do more milage on more cars with a cheap family car.
The fact that Ferrari have been so quick to sort out this problem is commendable. Recalling all cars will cost them a huge amount of money, and they would have wanted to avoid it, but it's clear they realise there's a problem. Compare this instead with many mainstream manufacturers who will put of a recall as long as possible until they are sure they can't fix it during a routine service.
Ferrari aren't the first car company to see a series of unexplained 'thermal events'.....it's just unfortunate they didn't stumble accross it earlier on!
As strange as it sounds, cars like Ferrari's are often more prone to this type of issue as it's significantly more costly to test the cars in the first place. If you think about it, even at the final verification stage, you would be able to test maybe 10 Fiestas for every 1 458. This does not mean that the engineering or quality is any worse on a Ferrari than a Fiesta. It's simply the different between a mass produced shopping car and a supercar. It's much easier to do more milage on more cars with a cheap family car.
The fact that Ferrari have been so quick to sort out this problem is commendable. Recalling all cars will cost them a huge amount of money, and they would have wanted to avoid it, but it's clear they realise there's a problem. Compare this instead with many mainstream manufacturers who will put of a recall as long as possible until they are sure they can't fix it during a routine service.
Ferrari aren't the first car company to see a series of unexplained 'thermal events'.....it's just unfortunate they didn't stumble accross it earlier on!
ArosaMike said:
.....it's just unfortunate they didn't stumble accross it earlier on!
I'd rather the engineers responsible for 'designing' a £150K 200mph vehicle didn't stumble on any of the aspects relating to its performance & safety. I'd prefer correctly specified tyres, brakes, engine cooling and aerodynamic stability along with hopefully some engine bay materials specified not to combust, melt, delaminate, twist or have any 'thermal incident' of any kind. Plenty of other areas of industry work with high strength, fire retardant, low smoke emission polymers and adhesives so why was Ferrari's choice of materials and also their testing programme shamefully poor ???. Edited by CRACKIE on Wednesday 1st September 22:59
1400 out there means hardly exclusive then; no chance of assured future values? - risk here that they'll emulate Bentley and AM in over baking the brand (as well as the cars), with residuals to follow. On the other hand the number of people in the world with the money and aspiration to own is probably growing faster, so we'll see. Interestingly only 4800 Corvette ZR-1s made last year and despite all the glue they use, no fires.
Mr MoJo said:
turbo-ww said:
greygoose said:
scarecrow said:
Somehow I cannot in my wildest dreams imagine Maclaren making the same mistake.
No they never burn, oh wait..
I wonder if the Ferrari wheel arch heat shield designer has been fired ?
Sorry.
Carrera gt was subjected to every single test and condition the most basic boxter had to endure . afaik the only supercar to have to endure this . i cant believe in the 21st century a 200k car can have issues like this . there is no excuse for this kind of thing in a 15k skoda let alone the newest ferrari . i just lost all confidence in ferrari .
Edited by wtdoom on Thursday 2nd September 01:38
Aren't composites wonderful! My guess at the problem would be that it's a design flaw in three separate ways. First, you have a composite structure used in an environment that has high heat loading. Within that environment you have specific areas that have much greater heat to cope with. Understandably, you would add a heat shield in these areas to prevent a well known problem with composite structures. If you use normal laminating resins (polyester or epoxy) in the construction the structure will have what's called a "glass transition" temperature. Basically, this is the temperature that the resin begins to soften. With epoxy its around 100 degrees Celsius. After this point, the laminate loses most of the strength of the resin in the matrix which then just leaves the cloth. Naturally, this will distort if it's subjected to any mechanical force. So that's the first flaw, letting the laminate get to a temperature that exceeds it's glass transition threshold (GTT). A heat shield should be designed and fitted in such a way that the composite is protected and it's temperature kept below GTT. Here Ferrari fails in the next two ways. It's obvious that the heat shield is insufficient to prevent the wheel arch lining from absorbing too much heat and distorting and also the adhesive used to attach it is flammable. So, they're three time losers and now have to pony up at least five new cars. I can't see the point of a glued-on heat shield myself, it smacks of cost cutting. Also I agree with the poster who called the build quality of Ferraris into question, I remember looking at a brand new Lambo Countach in a showroom once. The paint was awful and so were the panel gaps. Where the side scoop was painted black internally, the masking tape used had allowed the black to wick under the tape and left a fuzzy line. I did a better job respraying my Lotus Escort!
Mr MoJo said:
turbo-ww said:
greygoose said:
scarecrow said:
Somehow I cannot in my wildest dreams imagine Maclaren making the same mistake.
No they never burn, oh wait..Whoooosshhh!
Guvernator said:
I've said this before and I'll say it again. Lovely looking though they are, the build quality or reliability of Fezza's leaves ALOT to be desired.
My question would be, why wasn't this picked up in endurance testing?
Never mind that, why wasn't it picked up during FMEA?My question would be, why wasn't this picked up in endurance testing?
plg said:
Otto said:
Gridl0k said:
Guvernator said:
My question would be, why wasn't this picked up in endurance testing?
I've yet to see any form of testing that replicates just how stupid actual customers are.Also, this could well have been a cost reduction after their validation testing... changing from mechanical fasteners to glue.
turbo-ww said:
greygoose said:
scarecrow said:
Somehow I cannot in my wildest dreams imagine Maclaren making the same mistake.
No they never burn, oh wait...SDxsi said:
Mr MoJo said:
turbo-ww said:
greygoose said:
scarecrow said:
Somehow I cannot in my wildest dreams imagine Maclaren making the same mistake.
No they never burn, oh wait..Whoooosshhh!
Bugger. My only excuse is that it was late and it had been a long day !!Gassing Station | General Gassing | Top of Page | What's New | My Stuff