996 engine/transmission failures - action time
Discussion
I own a 1999 C2 996 Manual (3.4 engine) which was originally bought from an Official Porsche Centre in the UK and all services have been carried out by OPCs since.
It has had an engine and transmission replaced already due to internal component failures. It has had the usual leaking RMS problems.
Recently the car went in for its annual service. The car was fine when it left me and but after the service had been carried out and during the final road test I was told that it developed a major engine problem which has subsequently been diagnosed as a big end bearing failure which requires another engine replacement.
The car is now out of warranty and I have been informed by PCGB that because of this and the age and mileage of the car, they will not cover the costs. They have offered to make a contribution, but I’m still facing a very big bill.
There is plenty of information around on forums about the RMS oil leaks and engine failures due to liners cracking and bearings breaking up in 996s and Boxsters. Transmissions also seem to be a problem. Some owners have received 'goodwill' FOC replacements and others have been left to pick up the bill. Is this just a case of who shouts loudest or complains the most gets the goodwill and rest are left to find more money to pour into a car which has already depreciated more than any almost any other Porsche model in history?
I do not want to be a cause of further depreciation but isn’t it about time something was done about this situation? If the number of failures occurring is a small percentage then it would be in Porsche’s interest to simply replace them FOC and keep their customers happy. If it is such a big issue that they don’t want to spend the money doing this, we all should be made aware.
A few people in the past have tried to gather information, set up websites etc. to bring this out into the open but don’t seem to have got very far. I would like to do something not just to sort out my own situation but also to help all 996 and Boxster owners, past and present, receive fair treatment from Porsche.
To start with I'd like to hear your stories, good and bad. So if you've suffered an engine or transmission failure with your 996 or Boxster, please let me know the VIN/chassis number, year, model and mileage when it happened, description of fault/failure and what the result was (warranty replacement, goodwill replacement, contribution or no help given).
Please post here or e-mail me privately:
mrphish@dial.pipex.com
All personal information will be treated in the strictest confidence. No names or e-mail addresses will be released to anyone without the consent of the contributor.
Please feel free to copy or e-mail this post to anyone you know who has had engine or transmission failures and help get the truth out in the open.
It has had an engine and transmission replaced already due to internal component failures. It has had the usual leaking RMS problems.
Recently the car went in for its annual service. The car was fine when it left me and but after the service had been carried out and during the final road test I was told that it developed a major engine problem which has subsequently been diagnosed as a big end bearing failure which requires another engine replacement.
The car is now out of warranty and I have been informed by PCGB that because of this and the age and mileage of the car, they will not cover the costs. They have offered to make a contribution, but I’m still facing a very big bill.
There is plenty of information around on forums about the RMS oil leaks and engine failures due to liners cracking and bearings breaking up in 996s and Boxsters. Transmissions also seem to be a problem. Some owners have received 'goodwill' FOC replacements and others have been left to pick up the bill. Is this just a case of who shouts loudest or complains the most gets the goodwill and rest are left to find more money to pour into a car which has already depreciated more than any almost any other Porsche model in history?
I do not want to be a cause of further depreciation but isn’t it about time something was done about this situation? If the number of failures occurring is a small percentage then it would be in Porsche’s interest to simply replace them FOC and keep their customers happy. If it is such a big issue that they don’t want to spend the money doing this, we all should be made aware.
A few people in the past have tried to gather information, set up websites etc. to bring this out into the open but don’t seem to have got very far. I would like to do something not just to sort out my own situation but also to help all 996 and Boxster owners, past and present, receive fair treatment from Porsche.
To start with I'd like to hear your stories, good and bad. So if you've suffered an engine or transmission failure with your 996 or Boxster, please let me know the VIN/chassis number, year, model and mileage when it happened, description of fault/failure and what the result was (warranty replacement, goodwill replacement, contribution or no help given).
Please post here or e-mail me privately:
mrphish@dial.pipex.com
All personal information will be treated in the strictest confidence. No names or e-mail addresses will be released to anyone without the consent of the contributor.
Please feel free to copy or e-mail this post to anyone you know who has had engine or transmission failures and help get the truth out in the open.
My 98 C2 went pop at 46k in Apr 05 on the M40, steady cruise doing 80 in the fastlane and big cloud of smoke and engine stalled.
Pulled over (no mechanical noise whatsoever) and oil dripping onto the hard shoulder, by the time I had got the car back to my dealers there was a lot of oil.
Apparently the camchain snapped and shattered the crankcase, lunching the engine. Had to have a total engine rebuild which cost £6.5k, could have done it a bit cheaper for reasons I won't go into here. Told by the independent that Porsche wouldn't even consider a goodwill gesture as my car had been outside the OPC network. Had to sell the car to a lucky git who has effectively got a brand new engine in a low mileage, immac 996.
Gutted, I will never buy a Porker again and I absolutely loved mine.
Pulled over (no mechanical noise whatsoever) and oil dripping onto the hard shoulder, by the time I had got the car back to my dealers there was a lot of oil.
Apparently the camchain snapped and shattered the crankcase, lunching the engine. Had to have a total engine rebuild which cost £6.5k, could have done it a bit cheaper for reasons I won't go into here. Told by the independent that Porsche wouldn't even consider a goodwill gesture as my car had been outside the OPC network. Had to sell the car to a lucky git who has effectively got a brand new engine in a low mileage, immac 996.
Gutted, I will never buy a Porker again and I absolutely loved mine.
t! pcgb means, porsche cars GB not the club.I am surprised to note that Mr Phish has disclosed neither the mileage of this car nor the repair costs nor for that matter the goodwill contribution thereto from Porsche.
Nevertheless I think that our commercial lawyer friend is displaying a rather sanctimonious attitude and has rather overlooked one or two material factual points of which I would have expected a learned counsel to have taken note as well as general points of Judicial Note.
Firstly, Mr Phish DID buy a car with a full OPC service history.
Secondly, the car is on to its SECOND engine within 6 years.
Thirdly,Porsche have hitherto enjoyed a reputation of building cars of superlative mechanical integrity and longevity. Engine replacements in pre 996 models was all but unknown.
Fourthly, the Independent Porsche garages have prospered by providing at least a good a service as the OPC's, at a far more economical price.You only have to look at the corporate image which has to be maintained by the OPC's.Their customers pay for those designer premises, nobody else.Nonetheless this point is irrelevent as Mr Phish's car had a full OPC history and still had a horrible problem.
The uncomfortable realities are that there have been too many reported incidents of 996 engines being replaced.Whereas in the past owning an older Porsche was not regarded as financially lifethreatening we had better take note of Mr Phish, and one point of Vesuvius advice; pay for that renewable Porsche warranty to cover catastrophic failure.Just a pity that we are now having to heed the advice given to 'Trevor' owners for years!
Nevertheless I think that our commercial lawyer friend is displaying a rather sanctimonious attitude and has rather overlooked one or two material factual points of which I would have expected a learned counsel to have taken note as well as general points of Judicial Note.
Firstly, Mr Phish DID buy a car with a full OPC service history.
Secondly, the car is on to its SECOND engine within 6 years.
Thirdly,Porsche have hitherto enjoyed a reputation of building cars of superlative mechanical integrity and longevity. Engine replacements in pre 996 models was all but unknown.
Fourthly, the Independent Porsche garages have prospered by providing at least a good a service as the OPC's, at a far more economical price.You only have to look at the corporate image which has to be maintained by the OPC's.Their customers pay for those designer premises, nobody else.Nonetheless this point is irrelevent as Mr Phish's car had a full OPC history and still had a horrible problem.
The uncomfortable realities are that there have been too many reported incidents of 996 engines being replaced.Whereas in the past owning an older Porsche was not regarded as financially lifethreatening we had better take note of Mr Phish, and one point of Vesuvius advice; pay for that renewable Porsche warranty to cover catastrophic failure.Just a pity that we are now having to heed the advice given to 'Trevor' owners for years!
At this stage I don't want to give too many specific details on my case. Suffice to say that the mileage is probably slightly above average for a 996, but not one that would warrant a 3rd engine in anyone's opinion.
The point is, if I had wanted a car that cost me a fortune to maintain, I wouldn't have bought a 911 in the first place. I did, because I was under the impression that a Porsche 911 is a quality product - well designed, well engineered and reliable. Now that may be the case for the majority of the cars they produce, but there has been enough reports now of early 996s and Boxsters suffering major engine and transmission failures that surely we must question the design and/or manufacturing integrity of these models.
If there are inherent design faults which means that an engine is more likely to fail prematurely in normal use then why should I as the customer be expected to pay for it whether covered by warranty or not?
It's a bad situation and Porsche should not put their reputation on the line by ignoring it and hoping it will go away.
The point is, if I had wanted a car that cost me a fortune to maintain, I wouldn't have bought a 911 in the first place. I did, because I was under the impression that a Porsche 911 is a quality product - well designed, well engineered and reliable. Now that may be the case for the majority of the cars they produce, but there has been enough reports now of early 996s and Boxsters suffering major engine and transmission failures that surely we must question the design and/or manufacturing integrity of these models.
If there are inherent design faults which means that an engine is more likely to fail prematurely in normal use then why should I as the customer be expected to pay for it whether covered by warranty or not?
It's a bad situation and Porsche should not put their reputation on the line by ignoring it and hoping it will go away.
I own a July 2002 911 Targa Tiptronic with 33,000 miles on the clock. Last week there was a brief mechanical noise. Later on it happened again followed by loss of oil from the front of engine. Diagnosis is that the transfer shaft has broken.
Recommendation from Porsche main dealer is a new engine at a cost of £9000.00. Although the car has a full Porsche main dealer service record I bought the car from a Porsche specialist with a RAC warranty which seems to be limited to £1000.00 so I am currently waiting to see if there will be a contribution from Porsche GB.
Recommendation from Porsche main dealer is a new engine at a cost of £9000.00. Although the car has a full Porsche main dealer service record I bought the car from a Porsche specialist with a RAC warranty which seems to be limited to £1000.00 so I am currently waiting to see if there will be a contribution from Porsche GB.
Funny, there was a reply to my original post which seems to have disappeared. Can you delete a post on this forum?
Anyway, I'm interested to hear if Tim got a result.
The current state of play is that I have had numerous e-mails from 996 & Boxster owners here and in the States and I am now looking into forming an action group to bring these issues into the open. All I want is for Porsche to be truthful about the level of problems they have been experiencing with these engines and other major 996/Boxster components so that their current and future customers know what to expect from ownership.
If my experience is unusual then I can accept that but I would expect a manufacturer of any quality product which exibits premature failures to stand up, admit their errors and compensate me fully for them.
Want to know the facts?
The facts are that if you have a 996/997/Boxster with an engine that isn't based on the GT1 block (i.e. C2, C4, Boxster, Boxster S) then the chances of you experiencing a total engine failure through a cracked bore liner, intermediate shaft failure or main bearing failure are much higher than any other Porsche model.
If you are prepared to accept the risk that by owning or buying one of these cars out of warranty you may face a £9,000 bill for an engine replacement or a £5,000 bill for a gearbox some time soon then that's fine, but you should at least be told. And you'll be paying £800 for RMS replcements several times over if you're really unlucky.
Ultimately it boils down to Porsche cutting costs to increase profitability. They care more about the bottom line and volume sales than engineering excellence and customer satisfaction these days.
These are the facts and I challenge Porsche or anyone else to prove me wrong.
Anyway, I'm interested to hear if Tim got a result.
The current state of play is that I have had numerous e-mails from 996 & Boxster owners here and in the States and I am now looking into forming an action group to bring these issues into the open. All I want is for Porsche to be truthful about the level of problems they have been experiencing with these engines and other major 996/Boxster components so that their current and future customers know what to expect from ownership.
If my experience is unusual then I can accept that but I would expect a manufacturer of any quality product which exibits premature failures to stand up, admit their errors and compensate me fully for them.
Want to know the facts?
The facts are that if you have a 996/997/Boxster with an engine that isn't based on the GT1 block (i.e. C2, C4, Boxster, Boxster S) then the chances of you experiencing a total engine failure through a cracked bore liner, intermediate shaft failure or main bearing failure are much higher than any other Porsche model.
If you are prepared to accept the risk that by owning or buying one of these cars out of warranty you may face a £9,000 bill for an engine replacement or a £5,000 bill for a gearbox some time soon then that's fine, but you should at least be told. And you'll be paying £800 for RMS replcements several times over if you're really unlucky.
Ultimately it boils down to Porsche cutting costs to increase profitability. They care more about the bottom line and volume sales than engineering excellence and customer satisfaction these days.
These are the facts and I challenge Porsche or anyone else to prove me wrong.
Mr Phish said:
Want to know the facts?
The facts are that if you have a 996/997/Boxster with an engine that isn't based on the GT1 block (i.e. C2, C4, Boxster, Boxster S) then the chances of you experiencing a total engine failure through a cracked bore liner, intermediate shaft failure or main bearing failure are much higher than any other Porsche model.
These are the facts and I challenge Porsche or anyone else to prove me wrong.
Well failures may be higher than previous models but on the whole the number of such problems are still very small. Look how many 996 have been made and then look at number of failures / serious problems. I think then when you are actaully armed with the facts (rather than speculation) you will find the reliability is very good and way above average for standard cars nevermind performance cars.
Sorry if I seem a bit blunt but you seem to have bought a car with the expectation that nothing can go wrong with it and if it does then its the manufacturer's fault.
Do you know how often washing machines fail. or have you started a Bosche / Hotpoint action group as well??!!
Rant over (but I'm really tiring of the endless tirade of abuse fired at Porsche (996, 997 reliability)
I'm with Fulham here.
To buy a £40k+ collection of mechanical parts and not spend £700 on a warranty is regrettable.
The fact that Porsche will extend the factory warranty to 9 years/150k miles speaks volumes for reliability.
Try getting that on a Scooby or an Evo, let alone a Sigaris.
To buy a £40k+ collection of mechanical parts and not spend £700 on a warranty is regrettable.
The fact that Porsche will extend the factory warranty to 9 years/150k miles speaks volumes for reliability.
Try getting that on a Scooby or an Evo, let alone a Sigaris.
fulham911club said:
Well failures may be higher than previous models but on the whole the number of such problems are still very small. Look how many 996 have been made and then look at number of failures / serious problems. I think then when you are actaully armed with the facts (rather than speculation) you will find the reliability is very good and way above average for standard cars nevermind performance cars.
So you know the number of failures/serious problems?
Please tell us.
In any case, you are missing my point. It doesn't really matter if there's been 20, 200 or 20000 failures. The point is that the vast majority of serious engine failures we have information about fall into a very few common categories. There is a trend here but rather than admit to design faults Porsche's response is always to deny it's happening and say "buy a new engine Mr Customer".
I'm sure you are tired of hearing about it. That's because the problems are not going away and will only get worse the more time goes on.
Mr Phish said:
In any case, you are missing my point. It doesn't really matter if there's been 20, 200 or 20000 failures.
I think that is the VERY point. The number of problems is exaggerated via forums such as these. And if it was indeed 20,000 then I think perhaps the problem would have been fixed.
"To buy a £40k+ collection of mechanical parts and not spend £700 on a warranty is regrettable."
Well yes it is, but anyone who buys a car that expensive without buying a decent warranty either (a) has enough money not to be bothered or (b) is showing questionable risk management skills.
And for what it is worth, my 996 is currently in the OPC having the RMS done becuase it's leaking. And am I remotely concerned? No, becuase it's being fixed free of charge with no argument becuase I invested in a warranty. Just like I was not bothered the last time it went in for a new header tank, because I didn't have to pay for that either.
Engines break. Gearboxes break.
I say again, BUY A WARRANTY and ENJOY these magnificent cars.
If you can't afford the warranty (and come on it's £60 a month - a tank of fuel for goodness sake) you're driving the wrong car IMHO.
PS I am genuinely sorry to hear your problem. My heart would be broken if it was me.
>> Edited by Vesuvius996 on Friday 9th September 12:07
Vesuvius996 said:
I say again, BUY A WARRANTY and ENJOY these magnificent cars.
That is undoubtedly sound advice, but ... what do you suggest when they are over 9 years old and porsche will no longer warranty them?
If these are cars that are only economically viable to run when the manufacturer will provide a warranty then there are going to be some bl**dy cheap cars in the next few years.
I am clearly no expert in this area, but it seems to me that the reason this issue (if it is "one" issue and not several) is so worrying for people is firstly the unpredictability and secondly the way in which it seems to return after it has been "fixed".
Typically when a car has a problem and you fix it, then either that is the end of it (e.g. 993 wiring loom); or you have a decent confidence that it'll be NN,000 miles before you need to worry again (e.g. 944 belts).
Neither seems to apply here.
I do agree with Mr Phish, that it WOULD be good to have accurate figures around the real frequency of occurrence. The current lack of information is definitely fuelling the speculation and concern.
My 0.02p
Dan
fulham911club said:
And if it was indeed 20,000 then I think perhaps the problem would have been fixed.
How do you know it isn't that number? You don't, I don't and Porsche aren't telling us. Why wouldn't they reveal the numbers if they are insignificant?
Also, I am quite aware that cars go wrong. If I had to pay for say an RMS replacement, I would be a bit disgruntled but would take it on the chin.
But to expect to have another engine let go 50,000 miles after the first one has been replaced is not reasonable.
Regarding warranties, yes it's a calculated risk if you don't take out an extended warranty. IF I had been warned that a second engine failure in my car was a distinct possibility then sure I would have taken out a warranty, no question.
But every time I have spoken to my dealer about the problems with my car I have been told that they have never seen a problem like that before and I must be unlucky.
They are telling lies and covering up.
danww said:
I do agree with Mr Phish, that it WOULD be good to have accurate figures around the real frequency of occurrence. The current lack of information is definitely fuelling the speculation and concern.
It would be worth contacting the Porsche Club GB, I know that they were doing a survey on the RMS failure issue, but I don't know the outcome.
I don't normally post in the 911 bit but a mate of mine sent the thread through.
Guys,
All this stuff about warranty is a load of tosh. Yes, buy one if you can afford it, don't buy one if you can take the risk. That's pretty straightforward and unquestionable.
When all is said and done does the 996/Boxster engine have design or premature wear issues? If it does then Porsche should, could and probably WILL be held accountable. If not then, tough, you bought an expensive car and are finding out what expensive bills are all about.
In the TVR-world, when I was lucky enough to be part of it, there was more than one person who paid for an independent engineers report to resolve the issues... try that.
Guys,
All this stuff about warranty is a load of tosh. Yes, buy one if you can afford it, don't buy one if you can take the risk. That's pretty straightforward and unquestionable.
When all is said and done does the 996/Boxster engine have design or premature wear issues? If it does then Porsche should, could and probably WILL be held accountable. If not then, tough, you bought an expensive car and are finding out what expensive bills are all about.
In the TVR-world, when I was lucky enough to be part of it, there was more than one person who paid for an independent engineers report to resolve the issues... try that.
danww said:
Vesuvius996 said:
I say again, BUY A WARRANTY and ENJOY these magnificent cars.
That is undoubtedly sound advice, but ... what do you suggest when they are over 9 years old and porsche will no longer warranty them?
After the 10th Year, you can still get a Porsche warranty for a further 5 years making 15 in total. The cover is slightly less but still looks good. If you read the warranty booklet, it's all detailed in there
>> Edited by silver993tt on Friday 9th September 13:35
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