Engineer and proud?
Discussion
benyeats said:
ferrisbueller said:
Scrufter said:
Through out all these posts, Money seems to be a reocuuring theme.
Just what do folks consider a fair wage for Engineering postions?
Just what do folks consider a fair wage for Engineering postions?
£100k seems a fair target.
100k when, at 30 years old, 40 ?
Which branch of engineering ?
Seems possible sometime inbetween 40-50 years old
Ben
...as an apprentice?
olf said:
ferrisbueller said:
cabinet enforcer said:
swilly said:
A professional engineer, therefore should be able to step into any mangement task without too much difficulty. Say for instance, managing a Tesco store. But a Tesco store manager could not step into the Engineers role.
Most good engineers would do a better job of managing a supermarket than most supermarket managers. The average store manager for a large store (eg Tesco or Asda) earns rather a lot of money...
On the flip side, retail is a disgusting exploitative industry which is generally populated by some of the most dislikable people alive, or at least that's my limited experience of it
After spending 3 years getting an engineering degree, spending ages looking for a job I could afford to take, giving up and ending up in a total dead end job in a totally unrelated field, I now regard my degree as a total waste of 3 years of my life. My degree wasn't even deemed sufficient to get me onto a teacher training course, so i'm having to do an "enhancement" course to start that, dunno if i'll be teaching in ten years time, but at least it's not likely to be too boring, and the pro-rata pay isn't shabby
Despite not actually working as an engineer, I would still consider myself to be one, wierd huh?
Some of my friends took the teaching route upon graduation and enjoy it very much. They are still degree qualified engineers and as such will always have that background knowledge and ability in their back pocket, whether they choose to use it or not.
As said above engineers are solid alrounders. In all likelihood the aptitudes required can be applied to a huge variety of jobs. Engineering in itself is no golden ticket but can open doors to a range of choices outside of the field.
On the wages front, people should bear in mind that 22k ish is the average starting wage for a grad in any field. WTF do people expect fresh out of uni? Make a note of when the first salary review is, most have one 6 months in. People are not going to give top dollar to someone with no track record or expertise. Companies are gambling on you, they don't owe you a living. Rather than starting wages consider what you'll be on in three years time. It's only natural to want more, but an air of realism needs to be adopted.
25.5k starter for mech grads in the southeast. 35 within 3 years. 37 in time for Chartership then 40k to 50k for you late 20's AND 30s. 60k in your 40s. That's assuming your're good but don't break out of eng for management.
Edited to say...
Thats IF you stay Staff.
Edited by olf on Friday 13th October 20:45
Edited by olf on Friday 13th October 20:47
What planet are those pay-rates on.....???
If you look in the back of PE most non-management jobs don't pay anthing like that. Average rate for a grad with 5 yrs experience is c£30 max, most around mid to high 20's tops. Even engineering managers are only around the £35-40k mark.
Take JCB, supposedly one of Britain's leading engineering companies here's a list of job titles & their approx pay-rates:
Graduate Engineer (no experience) - £23k
Design Engineer - £25k
Senior Design Engineer - £30k
Principal Engineer - £33k
Engineering Manager - £40-45k
Chief Engineer - £60k
Also bear in mind these rates don't vary hugely year on year as true merit increases are very hard to come by, and usually only if you go up a grade.
I joined in 1998 (HNC remember + 8 yrs experience then) on £25k as a Senior Engineer, six yrs later I left on £28.5k, despite putting a new gearbox into production, with no merit increase in the interim, and having responsibility for 3 other engineers.
I left 3 yrs ago after being headhunted, with a 30+% increase, with merit increases year on year (subject to performance).
It's only now that I feel I'm being suitably rewarded for the skills I have and the value I bring to my current company.
wobert said:
olf said:
ferrisbueller said:
cabinet enforcer said:
swilly said:
A professional engineer, therefore should be able to step into any mangement task without too much difficulty. Say for instance, managing a Tesco store. But a Tesco store manager could not step into the Engineers role.
Most good engineers would do a better job of managing a supermarket than most supermarket managers. The average store manager for a large store (eg Tesco or Asda) earns rather a lot of money...
On the flip side, retail is a disgusting exploitative industry which is generally populated by some of the most dislikable people alive, or at least that's my limited experience of it
After spending 3 years getting an engineering degree, spending ages looking for a job I could afford to take, giving up and ending up in a total dead end job in a totally unrelated field, I now regard my degree as a total waste of 3 years of my life. My degree wasn't even deemed sufficient to get me onto a teacher training course, so i'm having to do an "enhancement" course to start that, dunno if i'll be teaching in ten years time, but at least it's not likely to be too boring, and the pro-rata pay isn't shabby
Despite not actually working as an engineer, I would still consider myself to be one, wierd huh?
Some of my friends took the teaching route upon graduation and enjoy it very much. They are still degree qualified engineers and as such will always have that background knowledge and ability in their back pocket, whether they choose to use it or not.
As said above engineers are solid alrounders. In all likelihood the aptitudes required can be applied to a huge variety of jobs. Engineering in itself is no golden ticket but can open doors to a range of choices outside of the field.
On the wages front, people should bear in mind that 22k ish is the average starting wage for a grad in any field. WTF do people expect fresh out of uni? Make a note of when the first salary review is, most have one 6 months in. People are not going to give top dollar to someone with no track record or expertise. Companies are gambling on you, they don't owe you a living. Rather than starting wages consider what you'll be on in three years time. It's only natural to want more, but an air of realism needs to be adopted.
25.5k starter for mech grads in the southeast. 35 within 3 years. 37 in time for Chartership then 40k to 50k for you late 20's AND 30s. 60k in your 40s. That's assuming your're good but don't break out of eng for management.
Edited to say...
Thats IF you stay Staff.
Edited by olf on Friday 13th October 20:45
Edited by olf on Friday 13th October 20:47
What planet are those pay-rates on.....???
If you look in the back of PE most non-management jobs don't pay anthing like that. Average rate for a grad with 5 yrs experience is c£30 max, most around mid to high 20's tops. Even engineering managers are only around the £35-40k mark.
Take JCB, supposedly one of Britain's leading engineering companies here's a list of job titles & their approx pay-rates:
Graduate Engineer (no experience) - £23k
Design Engineer - £25k
Senior Design Engineer - £30k
Principal Engineer - £33k
Engineering Manager - £40-45k
Chief Engineer - £60k
Also bear in mind these rates don't vary hugely year on year as true merit increases are very hard to come by, and usually only if you go up a grade.
I joined in 1998 (HNC remember + 8 yrs experience then) on £25k as a Senior Engineer, six yrs later I left on £28.5k, despite putting a new gearbox into production, with no merit increase in the interim, and having responsibility for 3 other engineers.
I left 3 yrs ago after being headhunted, with a 30+% increase, with merit increases year on year (subject to performance).
It's only now that I feel I'm being suitably rewarded for the skills I have and the value I bring to my current company.
I think this is a fairer reflection of the majority of cases. Also, JCB are reknowned as task masters. However, interesting to note that they're currently recruiting for their engine division for engineers and senior engineers at 30-45k
Rob-C said:
ferrisbueller said:
And no Nuclear thanks.
Why not?
I have my own reasons for treating nuclear as a last resort, I'd be interested to hear other peoples' reasons.
Well, it's not because of a moral or ethical stance. I have no knowledge of the industry at all, but have no desire to work in it either. No offence to anyone, and I may be missing out, but it's not for me.
ferrisbueller said:
wobert said:
olf said:
ferrisbueller said:
cabinet enforcer said:
swilly said:
A professional engineer, therefore should be able to step into any mangement task without too much difficulty. Say for instance, managing a Tesco store. But a Tesco store manager could not step into the Engineers role.
Most good engineers would do a better job of managing a supermarket than most supermarket managers. The average store manager for a large store (eg Tesco or Asda) earns rather a lot of money...
On the flip side, retail is a disgusting exploitative industry which is generally populated by some of the most dislikable people alive, or at least that's my limited experience of it
After spending 3 years getting an engineering degree, spending ages looking for a job I could afford to take, giving up and ending up in a total dead end job in a totally unrelated field, I now regard my degree as a total waste of 3 years of my life. My degree wasn't even deemed sufficient to get me onto a teacher training course, so i'm having to do an "enhancement" course to start that, dunno if i'll be teaching in ten years time, but at least it's not likely to be too boring, and the pro-rata pay isn't shabby
Despite not actually working as an engineer, I would still consider myself to be one, wierd huh?
Some of my friends took the teaching route upon graduation and enjoy it very much. They are still degree qualified engineers and as such will always have that background knowledge and ability in their back pocket, whether they choose to use it or not.
As said above engineers are solid alrounders. In all likelihood the aptitudes required can be applied to a huge variety of jobs. Engineering in itself is no golden ticket but can open doors to a range of choices outside of the field.
On the wages front, people should bear in mind that 22k ish is the average starting wage for a grad in any field. WTF do people expect fresh out of uni? Make a note of when the first salary review is, most have one 6 months in. People are not going to give top dollar to someone with no track record or expertise. Companies are gambling on you, they don't owe you a living. Rather than starting wages consider what you'll be on in three years time. It's only natural to want more, but an air of realism needs to be adopted.
25.5k starter for mech grads in the southeast. 35 within 3 years. 37 in time for Chartership then 40k to 50k for you late 20's AND 30s. 60k in your 40s. That's assuming your're good but don't break out of eng for management.
Edited to say...
Thats IF you stay Staff.
Edited by olf on Friday 13th October 20:45
Edited by olf on Friday 13th October 20:47
What planet are those pay-rates on.....???
If you look in the back of PE most non-management jobs don't pay anthing like that. Average rate for a grad with 5 yrs experience is c£30 max, most around mid to high 20's tops. Even engineering managers are only around the £35-40k mark.
Take JCB, supposedly one of Britain's leading engineering companies here's a list of job titles & their approx pay-rates:
Graduate Engineer (no experience) - £23k
Design Engineer - £25k
Senior Design Engineer - £30k
Principal Engineer - £33k
Engineering Manager - £40-45k
Chief Engineer - £60k
Also bear in mind these rates don't vary hugely year on year as true merit increases are very hard to come by, and usually only if you go up a grade.
I joined in 1998 (HNC remember + 8 yrs experience then) on £25k as a Senior Engineer, six yrs later I left on £28.5k, despite putting a new gearbox into production, with no merit increase in the interim, and having responsibility for 3 other engineers.
I left 3 yrs ago after being headhunted, with a 30+% increase, with merit increases year on year (subject to performance).
It's only now that I feel I'm being suitably rewarded for the skills I have and the value I bring to my current company.
I think this is a fairer reflection of the majority of cases. Also, JCB are reknowned as task masters. However, interesting to note that they're currently recruiting for their engine division for engineers and senior engineers at 30-45k
Fair comment, but also consider that they never pay top rates that are advertised, so the £30k will be for a Senior Engineer, they will not pay one division differently from the others, and those rates I quoted are typical accross all the divisions.
The other thing to consider is the bulk of the engine design work has already been done, so any further work will be to enhance the existing product line, and make VA/VE improvments to what they currently have.
PE is a good tool for cross-referencing current payrates across engineering areas.
As an aside, the current rates for say a design engineer are pretty much what they were 10 yrs ago.....!!
Edited by wobert on Friday 13th October 21:25
ferrisbueller said:
olf said:
Well you're not going to earn a 100K engineering tin foil!
Er, ok. Soooooo tell me. What should I be doing to be making £100k? And no Nuclear thanks.
Contracting in the O&G industry on any number of new upstream and downstream facilities being engineered and constructed by UK based Co's.
ferrisbueller said:
Rob-C said:
ferrisbueller said:
And no Nuclear thanks.
Why not?
I have my own reasons for treating nuclear as a last resort, I'd be interested to hear other peoples' reasons.
Well, it's not because of a moral or ethical stance. I have no knowledge of the industry at all, but have no desire to work in it either. No offence to anyone, and I may be missing out, but it's not for me.
If you're an electronic or mechanical engineer, and you genuinely want to push the bounds, all roads lead to Nuclear. It's where the bounds lie!
I can identify with and accept what you are saying, but if you're new to engineering, it's what you will find.
Ferris, IMHO you probably are missing out. There are many, varied and interesting technical challenges in the nuclear industry. There is ample chance for your radical and innovative designs to be tried out in practice.
My personal beef is that the technical challenges are uttery utterly swamped by the frustration of dealing with pointless jobsworth civil servant types who see contract engineers as beneath contempt. People who value points-scoring in meetings to be more important than building steel and concrete and who openly delight in preventing others from getting on with their jobs.
In a past life, I did infact design an innovative new piece of equipment for a submarine dockyard. Long before it was built, I was fired (contract cancelled at a weeks notice) for the crime of disagreeing with a HR manager.
I was told years later by the commissioning engineer that my ion exchanger worked well, but I derive no satisfaction from it under the circumstances.
Much later, in another nuclear contract, I asked my line manager if he'd consider me working part time. (My wife was just getting ready to go back to work after the birth of our youngest). His response?
"You can work part time, for as long as it takes for us to replace you."
In other words, "Drop the request or your fired!"
And this is an industry that wonders why it struggles to recruit?!?
My personal beef is that the technical challenges are uttery utterly swamped by the frustration of dealing with pointless jobsworth civil servant types who see contract engineers as beneath contempt. People who value points-scoring in meetings to be more important than building steel and concrete and who openly delight in preventing others from getting on with their jobs.
In a past life, I did infact design an innovative new piece of equipment for a submarine dockyard. Long before it was built, I was fired (contract cancelled at a weeks notice) for the crime of disagreeing with a HR manager.
I was told years later by the commissioning engineer that my ion exchanger worked well, but I derive no satisfaction from it under the circumstances.
Much later, in another nuclear contract, I asked my line manager if he'd consider me working part time. (My wife was just getting ready to go back to work after the birth of our youngest). His response?
"You can work part time, for as long as it takes for us to replace you."
In other words, "Drop the request or your fired!"
And this is an industry that wonders why it struggles to recruit?!?
wobert said:
ferrisbueller said:
wobert said:
olf said:
ferrisbueller said:
cabinet enforcer said:
swilly said:
A professional engineer, therefore should be able to step into any mangement task without too much difficulty. Say for instance, managing a Tesco store. But a Tesco store manager could not step into the Engineers role.
Most good engineers would do a better job of managing a supermarket than most supermarket managers. The average store manager for a large store (eg Tesco or Asda) earns rather a lot of money...
On the flip side, retail is a disgusting exploitative industry which is generally populated by some of the most dislikable people alive, or at least that's my limited experience of it
After spending 3 years getting an engineering degree, spending ages looking for a job I could afford to take, giving up and ending up in a total dead end job in a totally unrelated field, I now regard my degree as a total waste of 3 years of my life. My degree wasn't even deemed sufficient to get me onto a teacher training course, so i'm having to do an "enhancement" course to start that, dunno if i'll be teaching in ten years time, but at least it's not likely to be too boring, and the pro-rata pay isn't shabby
Despite not actually working as an engineer, I would still consider myself to be one, wierd huh?
Some of my friends took the teaching route upon graduation and enjoy it very much. They are still degree qualified engineers and as such will always have that background knowledge and ability in their back pocket, whether they choose to use it or not.
As said above engineers are solid alrounders. In all likelihood the aptitudes required can be applied to a huge variety of jobs. Engineering in itself is no golden ticket but can open doors to a range of choices outside of the field.
On the wages front, people should bear in mind that 22k ish is the average starting wage for a grad in any field. WTF do people expect fresh out of uni? Make a note of when the first salary review is, most have one 6 months in. People are not going to give top dollar to someone with no track record or expertise. Companies are gambling on you, they don't owe you a living. Rather than starting wages consider what you'll be on in three years time. It's only natural to want more, but an air of realism needs to be adopted.
25.5k starter for mech grads in the southeast. 35 within 3 years. 37 in time for Chartership then 40k to 50k for you late 20's AND 30s. 60k in your 40s. That's assuming your're good but don't break out of eng for management.
Edited to say...
Thats IF you stay Staff.
Edited by olf on Friday 13th October 20:45
Edited by olf on Friday 13th October 20:47
What planet are those pay-rates on.....???
If you look in the back of PE most non-management jobs don't pay anthing like that. Average rate for a grad with 5 yrs experience is c£30 max, most around mid to high 20's tops. Even engineering managers are only around the £35-40k mark.
Take JCB, supposedly one of Britain's leading engineering companies here's a list of job titles & their approx pay-rates:
Graduate Engineer (no experience) - £23k
Design Engineer - £25k
Senior Design Engineer - £30k
Principal Engineer - £33k
Engineering Manager - £40-45k
Chief Engineer - £60k
Also bear in mind these rates don't vary hugely year on year as true merit increases are very hard to come by, and usually only if you go up a grade.
I joined in 1998 (HNC remember + 8 yrs experience then) on £25k as a Senior Engineer, six yrs later I left on £28.5k, despite putting a new gearbox into production, with no merit increase in the interim, and having responsibility for 3 other engineers.
I left 3 yrs ago after being headhunted, with a 30+% increase, with merit increases year on year (subject to performance).
It's only now that I feel I'm being suitably rewarded for the skills I have and the value I bring to my current company.
I think this is a fairer reflection of the majority of cases. Also, JCB are reknowned as task masters. However, interesting to note that they're currently recruiting for their engine division for engineers and senior engineers at 30-45k
Fair comment, but also consider that they never pay top rates that are advertised, so the £30k will be for a Senior Engineer, they will not pay one division differently from the others, and those rates I quoted are typical accross all the divisions.
The other thing to consider is the bulk of the engine design work has already been done, so any further work will be to enhance the existing product line, and make VA/VE improvments to what they currently have.
PE is a good tool for cross-referencing current payrates across engineering areas.
As an aside, the current rates for say a design engineer are pretty much what they were 10 yrs ago.....!!
Edited by wobert on Friday 13th October 21:25
I have it on good authority that the 45k is real for the right people. Also the product in question is about to begin development, although it may be an evolution of a current offering.
Engineering is way too difficult for the financial returns available. Starting with the degree, engineers typically have more hours of lectures than other students, the terms are longer if you are on a sandwich course, and the subject maatter can be a bit tricky... As a career, the money sucks compared to other soft subjects.
When asked my profession I still answer Engineer, despite not having done any proper engineering for years I still feel like an engineer. I am not sorry that I studied engineering, the education was fantastic and gives tremendous insight into everyday events, but making a living as an engineer is not for me.
David_S B.Eng(Hons) MBA C.Eng MIMechE (not really entitled to the last bit any more, my subscription has long since lapsed)
When asked my profession I still answer Engineer, despite not having done any proper engineering for years I still feel like an engineer. I am not sorry that I studied engineering, the education was fantastic and gives tremendous insight into everyday events, but making a living as an engineer is not for me.
David_S B.Eng(Hons) MBA C.Eng MIMechE (not really entitled to the last bit any more, my subscription has long since lapsed)
RR-Eng said:
cymtriks said:
RR-Eng said:
3. Work your way up the ladder, the top engineer at R-R earns something like £700K, this is long term solution and it has no guarantee of working.
The top guys at RR come from outside the company, the last top guy to come up through the ranks, all the way from being an apprentice, was Ralph Robbins.
Actually I was thinking along the lines of Colin Smith who is nominally the most senior engineer in the company, he started as a grad at Leavesdon.
What point are you trying to make here?
A salary of 700K is totally out of most peoples range. As far as being an example of what engineers may earn this is as good as saying that computer programers can realistically aspire to being billionaires because of Bill Gates.
RR-Eng said:
cymtriks said:
Anyway the top engineers get paid less than a tenth of that.
Roughly it goes-
grad recruit 23K
senior engineer 30K
principal engineer 35K
staff 40K
high level staff 45K
fellow 50K plus
As I pointed out in my posts it is correct that you aren't going to make large amounts of money on an engineer’s pay scale. However there are a large number of people on M grades (managers) and CSS (senior managers) who in those positions because of their engineering ability. I don't think they would let someone be a chief engineer whose background was in general management.
Hang on a minute, "you aren't going to make large amounts of money on an engineer’s pay scale"?
I would be genuinely interested in what portion of the graduate intake is likely to reach the more rarefied grades.
What you are really saying is that in order to progress you need to dump being a practising engineer.
RR-Eng said:
That said you could potentially be a staff engineer before the age of 30 which is by most people standards not a bad wage for a 30 year old.
Potentially, in theory, possibly.
Very, very, rare. A five year gap is more usual which would roughly correspond to the pay scales I posted above as salary in K being about age in years.
It is worth pointing out that RR has actually got a progression structure for engineers. These figures are actually for engineers that are doing OK. Many companies have a lesser career structure for engineers or none at all.
I have been to interviews and worked in places where experienced engineers were being offered 5 to 10 thousand less than RR might pay at that level.
RR-Eng said:
Isn’t it professional/specialist grades above staff technologist then fellows who are equivalent to company senior staff (CSS) (I’m guessing 75K+ for a fellow but then you are pretty much the best person in the world at what you do so that only fair 
)
A contractor earns about 40K
) A contractor earns about 40K
In a company that employs over thirty thousand people how many of these best in the world at what they do and earing 75K a year are there?
A good engineer can realistically aspire to becoming a specialist/staff in their career. Only the exceptonal and, frankly, the fortunate, get much further.
Stress subbies, on the other hand, get a bit more than 40K. More like 55K but then there's no security, no pension, no paid holidays, no notice when no longer required.
RR-Eng said:
cymtriks said:
You get paid two K more on day one if you join the graduate management course. They have to pay managers more because they're short of engineers.
Actually they recruited the people on the professional excellence scheme and the management scheme from the same pool of applicants. The reason the management people are paid more is because they will be on that scheme for about 4 years where as the professional excellence grads will be in a proper job in a year and a half and hence seeing an immediate pay rise when they do.
I've just been dipped with the task of managing graduates for turbine systems Derby so I can be mean to both...
I didn't know that bit. When you talk to your graduates ask where they want to end up. The ones we get are evenly split between leaving and going into management. Hardly any want to actually do engineering.
RR-Eng said:
The long and short of my posts up to this point;
If you work hard and smart engineering is a good pathway to jobs that pay pretty well. However it can't be guaranteed if the breaks don't come your way. This is as opposed to certain career paths where is you work hard you are pretty much guaranteed a large salary simply for doing your functional job without management responsibility.
If you work hard and smart engineering is a good pathway to jobs that pay pretty well. However it can't be guaranteed if the breaks don't come your way. This is as opposed to certain career paths where is you work hard you are pretty much guaranteed a large salary simply for doing your functional job without management responsibility.
That's the problem. If you were 18 which route would you choose?
RR is actually unusual in offering a technical route up for practising engineers. In most companies the ONLY route up is to stop doing engineering. Which brings me to my point which is that until UK engineering as a whole offers a technical career route up graduates may come in as engineers but they won't stay. They'll become managers or they'll leave. As long as that is the case why do engineering in the first place? Why not do businesss studies or do a degree that leads to the career you'll end up leaving engineering to do anyway?
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