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Blim_bug

Original Poster:

212 posts

95 months

[news] 
Wednesday 18th January 2012 quote quote all
The lower control arm snapped the other week (after going over a speed bump), I replaced both sides with adjustable control arms which are stronger than the OEM version.

I paid a visit to a local laser alignment company and they duly set up the suspension according to the manufacturer specs.

The problem I have is that both rear wheels now toe out at quite an aggressive angle.

Being that the new control arms are adjustable, I could opt to hop under the car and straighten them up, but then I got to thinking... The car's been set up per the manufacturers recommendations - they (VW) must have tested various iterations of suspension setups and established that the aggressive toe out must be beneficial to handling (despite causing premature wear to the inside of the tyre).

So, is too much toe a bad thing? Should I neutralise the toe since I very rarely drive the vehicle to its limits?

doogz

23,134 posts

73 months

[news] 
Wednesday 18th January 2012 quote quote all
What sort of angle are we talking about?

Classic Grad 98

6,346 posts

46 months

[news] 
Wednesday 18th January 2012 quote quote all
Toe out is pointless on a road car IMO and contributes only to significantly accelerated tyre wear.
It is not at all abnormal to set a race car up with toe out front and rear (obviously we're talking less than a degree here).

V88Dicky

5,185 posts

69 months

[news] 
Wednesday 18th January 2012 quote quote all
Sometimes, too much toe is good;



and sometimes bad;


kambites

40,746 posts

107 months

[news] 
Wednesday 18th January 2012 quote quote all
Running enough either way that you can see it with the naked eye on a road car is quite unusual.
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J4CKO

11,321 posts

86 months

[news] 
Wednesday 18th January 2012 quote quote all
Yes, sometimes showing too much Toe can be a bit off putting, a hint can be quite
nice but less is more.

Blim_bug

Original Poster:

212 posts

95 months

[news] 
Wednesday 18th January 2012 quote quote all
What sort of angle? Somewhere between clown car funny and something looks broken? smile

Image for illustration:


doogz

23,134 posts

73 months

[news] 
Wednesday 18th January 2012 quote quote all
Can't tell anything much from that picture, unless you're talking about negative camber, not toe?

Blim_bug

Original Poster:

212 posts

95 months

[news] 
Wednesday 18th January 2012 quote quote all
Nope, not camber (from my limited understanding), toe out = the top of the wheel sits further into the arch (towards the centre of the car) whilst the bottom of the wheel sticks out more?

i would Wiki it to make myself appear more intelligent, though it's offline today...


stoocake

314 posts

58 months

[news] 
Wednesday 18th January 2012 quote quote all
Yeah, I don't see any toe either. That's a lot of camber though, I'd have thought.


kambites

40,746 posts

107 months

[news] 
Wednesday 18th January 2012 quote quote all
Blim_bug said:
Nope, not camber (from my limited understanding), toe out = the top of the wheel sits further into the arch (towards the centre of the car) whilst the bottom of the wheel sticks out more?
No, that's negative camber that your'e describing.

Tow out means the fronts of the wheels are further out than the backs, so the two sides of the car are trying to drive away from each-other.

Ozzie Osmond

16,193 posts

132 months

[news] 
Wednesday 18th January 2012 quote quote all
Suggest some homework here - that's not toe, that's camber.

"Toe" is like your feet, where your toes can either be pointed together relative to your heels (toe in) or pointed apart (toe out).

The Porsche in the photo is exhibiting "negative camber".

It's fair to say that if a car has either toe out or positive camber it will probably have very wayward handling!

Classic Grad 98

6,346 posts

46 months

[news] 
Wednesday 18th January 2012 quote quote all
Blim_bug said:
Nope, not camber (from my limited understanding), toe out = the top of the wheel sits further into the arch (towards the centre of the car) whilst the bottom of the wheel sticks out more?
That's camber.

doogz

23,134 posts

73 months

[news] 
Wednesday 18th January 2012 quote quote all
Blim_bug said:
Nope, not camber (from my limited understanding), toe out = the top of the wheel sits further into the arch (towards the centre of the car) whilst the bottom of the wheel sticks out more?

i would Wiki it to make myself appear more intelligent, though it's offline today...
Yeah, that's camber.

Toe is the angle the wheel is steering at, basically.

You were describing both of your rear wheels steering out the way, "agressively"

Are those Beetles FWD yeah?

Blim_bug

Original Poster:

212 posts

95 months

[news] 
Wednesday 18th January 2012 quote quote all
kambites said:
Blim_bug said:
Nope, not camber (from my limited understanding), toe out = the top of the wheel sits further into the arch (towards the centre of the car) whilst the bottom of the wheel sticks out more?
No, that's negative camber that your'e describing.
That doesn't sound anywhere near as funny as toe'ing out though...

OK, so is too much negative camber a bad thing?

Blim_bug

Original Poster:

212 posts

95 months

[news] 
Wednesday 18th January 2012 quote quote all
doogz said:
Yeah, that's camber.

Toe is the angle the wheel is steering at, basically.

You were describing both of your rear wheels steering out the way, "agressively"

Are those Beetles FWD yeah?
This Beetle is AWD - well to a certain extent - FWD until slip detected, then shunts power to the rear (Haldex).

kambites

40,746 posts

107 months

[news] 
Wednesday 18th January 2012 quote quote all
Blim_bug said:
OK, so is too much negative camber a bad thing?
Generally, negative camber will increase your stopping distances and decrease your traction, but aid cornering (up to a point). Thus, more negative camber on the back than the front will make the car more prone to understeer and vice versa. It will also mean that the inner edges of your tyres wear faster than the outer ones.

Edited by kambites on Wednesday 18th January 15:59

doogz

23,134 posts

73 months

[news] 
Wednesday 18th January 2012 quote quote all
Blim_bug said:
This Beetle is AWD - well to a certain extent - FWD until slip detected, then shunts power to the rear (Haldex).
Yeah, wasn't sure if they were 2WD or a Haldex 4WD.

If that's what VW say, that's what they say. It's hard to tell from the picture just how much there is, there's no level datum, but you say you had it set up, did they give you a print out? Do you know how much camber there is?

My 4WD car has less camber on the rear than on the front, but that was my decision, based on how i drive it (on the very rare occassion these days that i get a chance to have a laugh) but camber is there to help maintain grip in bends, the ideal amount of which depends on spring and damping rates, mass, your preference, but i'd say, if the car feels good, and you haven't lowered it, messed about with the spring and damping rates, leave it as it is.

bicycleshorts

1,805 posts

47 months

[news] 
Wednesday 18th January 2012 quote quote all
kambites said:
It will also mean that the inner edges of your tyres wear faster than the outer ones.
A sidenote that tyre tread depth is checked across the middle 3/4.
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