Storing a car with tax but no insurance

[Murdoc]

I understand the law has changed and if a car isn't SORN then it must be insured. I just sold a car to a friend but he doesn't want to drive it until he has sold his car so it is without insurance. It may only be a couple of weeks so it's not worth sending the tax disc back.

Can I declare it SORN then un-SORN it when required and carry on with the remainder of the tax? I read on here that it was possible but I can't find the thread.

Thanks!

[Deva Link]

The normal snag is that the only way to unSORN it is to buy a tax disc.

However changing ownership also unSORNs the car. I've never seen clarification about the tax disc status though - no-one seems sure if SORNing the car effectively cancels the tax.

[kambites]

Deva Link said:

However changing ownership also unSORNs the car. I've never seen clarification about the tax disc status though - no-one seems sure if SORNing the car effectively cancels the tax.

I was in the same situation when I gave the wife's old car to my dad. We had to cash in the tax disc and get a new one in the end - it seems that legally it should be possible to unSORN it without getting a new tax disc, but I couldn't actually see a way to do it.

[Murdoc]

Oh dear, I told him we would be able to just SORN it. That's the problem with believing what you read on the internet.

[Deva Link]

kambites said:

I was in the same situation when I gave the wife's old car to my dad. We had to cash in the tax disc and get a new one in the end - it seems that legally it should be possible to unSORN it without getting a new tax disc, but I couldn't actually see a way to do it.

Well, like I said, changing the ownership unSORNs it. You'd still have the old tax disc unless you surrended it - the question is whether the DVLA would have cancelled it in their system so the car shows as untaxed?

[BertBert]

so you sorn it, don't send back tax. When you want to use it you insure it, send a letter by recorded delivery to DVLA telling them it's unsorned and you drive it. Or if the tax has since expired you buy new tax. What consequences can possibly occur?
Bert

[saaby93]

You need to decide whether youve actually sold it yet and whether or not youve sent off the bit of the V5
There are so many scenarios but here are a few

If youre still the registered keeper and it's still taxed and insured youve nothing to worry about
If youre the keeper, youve removed the insurance you need to make sure youre not keeping it on road or youre in for some penalties
If youre the keeper, it's taxed but youre keeping it around the back it's unlikely the local police are going to notice it so you should be able to wait until you get the SORN letter asking you to SORN or insure.

If you SORN on line or use V890 you can keep the tax. DVLA will mark the car as SORN
As soon as you sell it so send in the V5 it's automatically unSORNed and the new keeper has to sort out tax insurance and SORN see above

If you have kept the tax you or the new keeper needs to phone up the right person in DVLA and let them know you still have the tax otherwise they'll change from SORN to untaxed.

They might try to tell you the tax has been cancelled. If youre losing the argument on this if the new keeper has insurance either pop around to the PO and get new tax ( dont do it online it takes too long) or declare SORN - which defeats the object!
If the new keeper doesnt have insurance it should be SORN anyway
Is that clear?

Whatever you do dont let DVLA think it's both untaxed and unSORNED or a penalty arrives by post

I should have added if you do want a tax refund you can use form V14 to declare SORN or do it online or by phone.

Edited by saaby93 on Tuesday 24th January 22:43

[gmasterfunk]

This may have been answered elsewhere, but if the vehicle is taxed how do they know its not insured. I.e are all insurance companies registered on the database, what if (could it be) it was insured on a traders policy or on a forecourt or on a foreign drivers policy or <insert scenario here>?

G

[SS2.]

Murdoc said:

Can I declare it SORN then un-SORN it when required and carry on with the remainder of the tax?

IMO, a SORN declaration which is made where a current tax disc is retained is of questionable validity.

Note that there is no statutory requirement to SORN a vehicle which is taxed.

Form V890 (SORN Declaration) states that it should not be used if the vehicle is still taxed - Form V14 should be used instead. And Form V14 requires surrender of the tax disc.

Further evidence to indicate parliament's intention is the fact that there is no statutory mechanism whereby a quick phone call to DVLA can 'un-SORN' a vehicle.

[saaby93]

SS2. said:

Further evidence to indicate parliament's intention is the fact that there is no statutory mechanism whereby a quick phone call to DVLA can 'un-SORN' a vehicle.

I wish I could do a rs1952 style response to this
Whose intention was it? Parliament, whitehall, insurers, dvla, police?
Remember the starting point was that there were 17 million people with taxed cars who were supposedly using them while uninsured. The idea of tagging this onto the SORN legislation wasnt that most people would declare SORN but that theyd go out and buy insurance. It wasn't till later that many of these 17 million turned out to be motorhomes or classic cars insuring on sunny days. How many are as the OP are taxed but uninsured between buying one car and selling another?

Whoever wrote the legislation will have had two things in mind. When SORN was first brought in for no tax most of the penalties were allegedly issued to otherwise law abiding people/dealers with a car parked off road out the back rather than the scrotes they thought were using cars untaxed. To avoid the repeat this time they decided to issue a warning letter before sending the penalty.
The second they didnt want a huge number of penalties issued just due to the two data bases not matching, databases which they already knew were not 100%.

In essence SORN is simple, youre declaring you wont use the car on the road until it's insured and taxed (MOT exceptions aside). Although you may be doing because either has lapsed, you dont have to cancel your tax or insurance and you dont need to tell them when youve tax and insurance and using the car again.

DVLAs big computer had been set up on the basis that you would only SORN when you cancelled your tax (why else would you bother?) so were unprepared for people SORNing mid month and not wanting a disc refund (although they must have had some inclination from sale of vehicles as they knew theyd have to SORN & cancel the disc from the beginning of the month but so as not to flag a penalty, only issue a refund from the end of the month)

The system automatically assumes if you declare SORN you wanted to be untaxed so, apart from taking out new tax, the only time theyve allowed the computer to unSORN is when you sell the car, when its computer status reverts to untaxed - even if youve kept the disc.
Like taxed/untaxed and insured/uninsured there should be SORNed/unSORNed - choose any combination

As a result apparantly the numbers of insured vehicles have gone up. How many of those are now insured kept off road? How many are the scrotes they were trying to target?

Coffee

Edited by saaby93 on Tuesday 24th January 22:19

[Digby]

saaby93 said:

If you SORN on line or use V890 you can keep the tax. DVLA will mark the car as SORN
As soon as you sell it so send in the V5 it's automatically unSORNed and the new keeper has to sort out tax insurance and SORN see above

Edited by saaby93 on Tuesday 24th January 18:20

I had no idea about this.I have purchased numerous cars on SORN and left them as that for some time before insuring or taxing etc (Currently have one like this right now).I have never had any nasty letters etc.Is this just luck on my part? We have only ever taxed them when I have decided to use them, sometimes months after purchasing.

[saaby93]

Digby said:

I had no idea about this.I have purchased numerous cars on SORN and left them as that for some time before insuring or taxing etc (Currently have one like this right now).I have never had any nasty letters etc.Is this just luck on my part? We have only ever taxed them when I have decided to use them, sometimes months after purchasing.

It's interesting.
A while back there were a number of threads from people receiving a penalty due to noTAX and noSORN. However in recent weeks there have been a number stating although theyve been untaxed and not SORN no penalty received. As it was only a paper exercise, so long as the car isn't detected on road maybe penalties are no longer being issued.

Or are you a dealer?

Edited by saaby93 on Tuesday 24th January 22:30

[SS2.]

saaby93 said:

I should have added you can use form V11 to declare SORN if you do want a tax refund..

V11 is the renewal form which is typically issued ~3 weeks before expiry of the current disc.

[SS2.]

saaby93 said:

wish I could do a rs1952 style response to this

<..stuff..>

Not uncommonly, I have absolutely no idea of the point you are trying to make with respect to the OP's original question.

[saaby93]

SS2. said:

saaby93 said:

wish I could do a rs1952 style response to this
<..stuff..>

Not uncommonly, I have absolutely no idea of the point you are trying to make with respect to the OP's original question.

I wasn't, that's already been covered - I was trying to answer yours
edite V14 form above

Edited by saaby93 on Tuesday 24th January 22:43

[daz3210]

Don't forget also when thinking about the intentions of the legislation, when you buy insurance there is 6% IPT.

So all ways round the government gets a cut from this unless you sorn. And how long before they decide to charge for this?

[saaby93]

For completeness here's the penalty page
http://www.direct.gov.uk/en/Motoring/OwningAVehicl...

directgov said:

If a vehicle does not have insurance, the registered keeper could:

-receive a fixed penalty of £100
-have their vehicle wheel-clamped, impounded, or destroyed
-face a court prosecution, with a possible maximum fine of £1000
Payment of a penalty does not replace the need for motor insurance.

or are those penalties for using on the road?

[SS2.]

saaby93 said:

or are those penalties for using on the road?

No, those penalties are for simply keeping an uninsured vehicle with no valid SORN in place.

[saaby93]

SS2. said:

saaby93 said:

or are those penalties for using on the road?

No, those penalties are for simply keeping an uninsured vehicle with no valid SORN in place.

A month or so back a poster said they'd had the £100 fine for not replying to the DVLA letter asking to SORN, insure or update database.
In what circumstance would they issue a higher penalty?

[STHi]

gmasterfunk said:

This may have been answered elsewhere, but if the vehicle is taxed how do they know its not insured. I.e are all insurance companies registered on the database, what if (could it be) it was insured on a traders policy or on a forecourt or on a foreign drivers policy or <insert scenario here>?

G

All insurers and brokers must submit data to the MID. This is the record of insured vehicles. It doesn't take long (c48 hours) to update the system. Despite all the scemnarios posted on here, error rates are very low when you consider there are c30million vehicles.

All traders MUST update their stock details with their insurers and this has been built into T&Cs for a good few years now.

Foreign policies - why would you insure a UK car on a foreign policy and then drive it in the UK? Unless you're trying to hide something.