what do you think...question regarding parrallel Turbo?

[R0162]

Hey all... i need opinions... basically i bought a pair of T28's supposedly taken from a M400...
To cut a long story short it turns out i have been sent a pair of T28's but not a matching pair... one is from a M400 but the other is different specification, for starters it does not say Garrett on it but on further inspection it very different dimensionally,, i.e there is 3mm difference in size on the compressor wheel and same on the outlet where the compressed air goes to the IC.

I got this from wiki..."Parallel twin-turbo refers to a turbocharger configuration in which two identical turbochargers function simultaneously, splitting the turbocharging duties equally"...

Is it fair to say that when you buy a pair of turbos for a twin turbo car.. that you would expect them them to be identical?...or have i been taken for a ride?...when i contacted the seller.. all i got in response was that he had sent me 2/T28's in working order and therefore i have no complaint..but yet this person knew they were for a twin turbo car..

[sundance002]

R0162 said:

Hey all... i need opinions... basically i bought a pair of T28's supposedly taken from a M400...
To cut a long story short it turns out i have been sent a pair of T28's but not a matching pair... one is from a M400 but the other is different specification, for starters it does not say Garrett on it but on further inspection it very different dimensionally,, i.e there is 3mm difference in size on the compressor wheel and same on the outlet where the compressed air goes to the IC.

I got this from wiki..."Parallel twin-turbo refers to a turbocharger configuration in which two identical turbochargers function simultaneously, splitting the turbocharging duties equally"...

Is it fair to say that when you buy a pair of turbos for a twin turbo car.. that you would expect them them to be identical?...or have i been taken for a ride?...when i contacted the seller.. all i got in response was that he had sent me 2/T28's in working order and therefore i have no complaint..but yet this person knew they were for a twin turbo car..

The guy new what he was doing, and was happy to mislead you.
Get the money back if poss, as if that is what he is like how good will the turbos be?
Just because it is in working order doesn't come into it , you ordered two identical turbos that's not what he sent.
Good luck, let us know how you get on.

[Hollowpockets]

I had two different t28's (one garrett and one no namer) and they had different inlet castings but universal turbos checked them out and they were the same inside.

I don't think inlet/outlet diameters matter hugely, it's the exhaust turbines and compressor wheels that must be the same.

Are you measuring the blade diameter or the inlet pipe casting?

[R0162]

sundance002 said:

The guy new what he was doing, and was happy to mislead you.
Get the money back if poss, as if that is what he is like how good will the turbos be?
Just because it is in working order doesn't come into it , you ordered two identical turbos that's not what he sent.
Good luck, let us know how you get on.

To be honest i do not think he knew they were different when selling.... but now he has been made aware it is a different matter... and the stance of playing on the wording i.e. "i sold you a pair T28's like we agreed", is not good....
To let you know how i got one...no joy.. as soon as i mentioned it, it was fingers in the ears, singing... "not my problem"..
I was looking at my old T25's i took off and they are identical in every way, so i dont see that mixing turbos is something that the factory would do?? To be honest when buying a pair of M400 spec T28's i was expecting a pair of Garrett...oh well lesson learned...anyone want to buy a non matching pair of T28's??..lol... i guess i will have to sell them separately...

Graham, The compressor blade is a different size, maybe i can get away with it because the airflow for the two turbos gets combines before going into the intake manifiold?? Maybe even though they have different size compressor housings and blades they can still produce identical flow??

I dont know enough about this technical stuff to be honest.. so i have to go with the advice of my mechanic and the general rule of only putting identical turbos "for optimal performance".....

[GTO600]

sundance002 said:

The guy new what he was doing, and was happy to mislead you.
Get the money back if poss, as if that is what he is like how good will the turbos be?
Just because it is in working order doesn't come into it , you ordered two identical turbos that's not what he sent.
Good luck, let us know how you get on.

Sundance
Please don't make assumptions based on someones very limited info !

This transaction was last March 2011 of which it was a swop for another pair of turbo's wrongly specced & ordered by Chris, no money changed hands.

The T28's that were on my car were supplied & fitted by a well known reputable Derbyshire Noble service centre, the engine was producing approx 500 bhp with no issues.
The turbo's were removed by a very well known Leicestershire Noble specilist & then stored in a box at my home.

Chris wanted a pair of T28'S & we agreed a swop, due to the value difference l offered to have my T28 turbo's overhauled at my cost so they would be as new, they were dispatched to a very well know Noble turbo specilist who overhauled them & then sent them direct to Chris who then proceeded to have them fitted. This was last March 2011.

I heard nothing until this Tuesday 7th Feb 2012 now claiming that one of the turbo's has never been right since being fitted & now on further investigation oh they are different!!!
The Turbo's that came off my car have passed through 3 sets of specilist hands!

So what would you do ?

Kevin

[Hollowpockets]

Ho ho the plot thickens.

As they clearly did come off a noble then I wouldn't worry Chris, maybe send them to a service agent to be checked over,

Are you upgrading or just after two matching t28's? If your upgrading you would prob get more selling them separate than as a pair anyway...

[Gadgeroonie]

personally i would not fit them - each bank of the engine will be working differently

you may be able to plumb them so one feeds the other as in "compound turbocharging" this means you can easily run 30 psi and have little lag

however - it is possible the internal turbine wheel and compressor wheel are identical

if the exhaust housing is identical also - then you can assume they will operate as a matched pair

i suggest you get them tested on a turbo balancing machine and inspected by a specialist - he should be able to tell you they are a matched pair

can we see pics please

[sundance002]

GTO600 said:

Sundance
Please don't make assumptions based on someones very limited info !

This transaction was last March 2011 of which it was a swop for another pair of turbo's wrongly specced & ordered by Chris, no money changed hands.

The T28's that were on my car were supplied & fitted by a well known reputable Derbyshire Noble service centre, the engine was producing approx 500 bhp with no issues.
The turbo's were removed by a very well known Leicestershire Noble specilist & then stored in a box at my home.

Chris wanted a pair of T28'S & we agreed a swop, due to the value difference l offered to have my T28 turbo's overhauled at my cost so they would be as new, they were dispatched to a very well know Noble turbo specilist who overhauled them & then sent them direct to Chris who then proceeded to have them fitted. This was last March 2011.

I heard nothing until this Tuesday 7th Feb 2012 now claiming that one of the turbo's has never been right since being fitted & now on further investigation oh they are different!!!
The Turbo's that came off my car have passed through 3 sets of specilist hands!

So what would you do ?

Kevin

Yes I did make my assumption on the info supplied , and now I have heard both sides I apologies , the fact they were on ur car and that you went to the trouble to have them overhauled to make sure they were in good order before you sent them IMO you acted honourable, as since you had no probs with running 500 bhp I can see why you would wonder what the issue was!
Christ should of brought this up in march and I'm sure you would of sorted something out between yourselfs, 1year on is a little late, and of course Chriss would of assumed they were the same as you did and only realised a year later when they were taken from the box. IMO its unfortunate but to late to do anything about.

So if they are good enough to run 500 bhp on your car would they not also be ok for Chriss to run the same? as from what you have said Kevin 3 Noble centres have seen them and never brought it up?

[R0162]

Kevin,

I was not naming as i wanted impartial opinions, this was never intended as a name and shame post.. your response has not changed the facts...

I have two different spec turbos, yes it is only just discovered, but hey if you found out your wife shagged the milkman a year ago would it make it ok?...

I contacted you to let you know in private, you accused universal of swapping them.....but yet when i asked you to confirm in writing that you sent two matching turbos to universal, so i could take it up with them.. you faltered!! and refused.. why??...
It doesnt take a genius to work out why you would not put in writing that you sent two matching T28's to universal for refurb...so please stop accusing other people of swapping them... lol

So they came off your car... the car made 500bhp.. so did mine... but it doesnt change the fact that upon the difference being spotted after the one with smaller compressor wheel started smoking, i have been advised not to put them back on as they are not a matching pair..i simply contacted you to ask why you think it is acceptable to send two different spec turbos... then you used word play and said the deal was to send two T28's.. suggesting that you had kept to the deal and therefore it was never the deal to send a matching pair..

Did you not change one of the turbos at any time?.. because one of the turbos is not factory, and not a garrett and not M400 spec..i understand if you did not know this at the time of making the deal.. but you know now..

I'm just saying how would you feel is you found out one of those GT28RS i sent you was a different spec with smaller compressor wheel and housing after being fitted to the car...there is a big element of trust on these deals... and it pretty much goes without saying that when we are talking about a pair T28's were are talking about a matching pair.

Lets leave it their Kevin.. lifes too short.. you have made it clear that sending two different spec turbos is nothing to do with you and its my problem....

[Mike Tuckwood]

Gadgeroonie said:

personally i would not fit them - each bank of the engine will be working differently

you may be able to plumb them so one feeds the other as in "compound turbocharging" this means you can easily run 30 psi and have little lag

however - it is possible the internal turbine wheel and compressor wheel are identical

if the exhaust housing is identical also - then you can assume they will operate as a matched pair

i suggest you get them tested on a turbo balancing machine and inspected by a specialist - he should be able to tell you they are a matched pair

can we see pics please

The plumbing for a compound Turbo set up is complex, as are the control systems, there would need to be a notable difference in the spec of the Turbos for this to work correctly, I doubt this is the case here. You need an identical matched pair, including inlet and outlet sizes Chris.

I'm sure its been mentioned before, but most named Turbochargers such as T25 or T28 are not a specific Turbo, they are a generic family of different Turbos, all under that family heading. Garret list about 16 different "T28" model units for example and that doesn't include hybrids altered for specific applications.



Mike.

[sundance002]

R0162 said:

Kevin,


, but hey if you found out your wife shagged the milkman a year ago would it make it ok!!!

Not if I was still paying the milk bill.

Chaps the phones a good place to start. Peace and all that.

[GTO600]

sundance002 said:

R0162 said:

Kevin,


, but hey if you found out your wife shagged the milkman a year ago would it make it ok!!!

Not if I was still paying the milk bill.

If she was i'd go & buy that Gumpert

Edited by GTO600 on Thursday 9th February 13:17

[R0162]

Mike Tuckwood said:

You need an identical matched pair, including inlet and outlet sizes Chris.

I'm sure its been mentioned before, but most named Turbochargers such as T25 or T28 are not a specific Turbo, they are a generic family of different Turbos, all under that family heading. Garret list about 16 different "T28" model units for example and that doesn't include hybrids altered for specific applications.



Mike.

Thanks for the advice.
I have no personal knowledge on turbos, so i am only taking advice, and i seem to keep getting the same advice... i.e. for turbos to work properly they need to be identical..
Yes my car ran and made good power, but when my mechanic took them off, all i heard was..." where did you buy these from?... you have been ripped off mate"
Rightly or wrongly thats what i was told, so i decided it was worth investigation.... this may be a case of they work but are not correct....or they will work but not optimally...either way it is not what i bought into...

here are the pics of the turbos.. btw it was a different mechanic who fitted them, hence why it did not get spotted prior to fitting...who knows it could well be the case that universal boxed up the wrong one by mistake....





Anyway i need to get them refurbed either way due to the oil seal.. so i will just send them to universal... in the meantime i am sticking my old T25's on the car with the old map...

[R0162]

GTO600 said:

The T28's that were on my car were supplied & fitted by a well known reputable Derbyshire Noble service centre...



Kevin

haha... so we have found the culprit...and it got passed down the line???.... still does not explain why uiniversal would not have picked up on the differences though... were they made aware that they were for a Noble?... or did you just say refurb and send on?

[Hollowpockets]

Chris, that is the same as the turbo i had, i also sent two of the same garrets to universal when they first needed refurbed before i upgraded them.

I noticed they were different so called universal and was told they are the same inside which is what mattered, it makes no odds if it is stamped with garret of AIRsearch.

is there a chance they are dishing out cheaper copys and selling on the better versions as new? maybe

Regardless, The same two turbo's on my car made 555bhp so I honestly think this might well be blown out of proportion.

[Hollowpockets]

Just done some googling for you Chris, AIRsearch is/was actually a Garrett company who made various things, Garrett however made the turbo's for that part of the company so its the same thing with a different stamp, it may even say garrett on it somewhere. Aslong as its the right .42 housing ,60(i think) trim compressor, .64 (i think) exhaust housing etc then im sure its fine and the same as the one i had. Im no expert though, hopefully universal can confirm my thoughts.

Graham

[TuxMan]

Hi Chris , I've just spoke to Universal turbos on a different issue and mentioned that you have a concern ref different casting lettering on your turbos , they asure me the difference is only in the casting and not In The spec of the turbo and in no way effects the way they work also If you have a smoking problem something that Nobles suffer from due to the. High oil pressure your Turbos are still covered under warranty so if you send them back they will check a make sure they are the correct tech spec and are in good working order .
hope this clears it up . Tux

[R0162]

I would agree completely... except having just spoken to universal there is a definate dimensional internal difference on compressor blade, i got my mechanic to check it 4 times, every time he came back i said chack it again.
So universal said the internal difference should not exist and asked me for the reference numbers, 13499 and 13486....
This raised concern as the numbers should be consecutive!!...they looked on their records and both job numbers are on a T28!!.....and considering that one turbo started smoking so early there are accepting there may have been a mix up although they are not accepting responsibilty yet...the plot thickens...
Kevin is exonerated... sorry Kevin.. it seems your pointing your finger at Universal was founded...

[Gadgeroonie]

well lets hope Universal will repair it and put if back to the correct spec at the same time

(is the one smoking oil the same one that has the incorrect sized compressor wheel ?)

hell if i were you send them both back and swap them in for a pair of GT28rs60's !

[Hollowpockets]

Gadgeroonie said:

hell if i were you send them both back and swap them in for a pair of GT28rs60's !

Haha