997.1 GT3 buying guide
Discussion
Hi,
I'm looking to buy a GT3, most likely a 997.1. I've viewed a few already and have another couple lined up this week.
I'm hoping there is someone on here who can offer some practical advice from actual experience. I've tried to read up on all the info I can find and any buyers guides, but a journos view and an owners view can be quite different. Apologies if this has been covered before, the search function is currently down.
1 I viewed smoked (blue/white) on start up, but not after. Having searched on this, it seems it's not uncommon, but I assume it's not normal either? Blue smoke to me = bad but there seems to be quite a few examples of this which the owners seem to simply accept.
PCCB. Sellers with this option evangelise their existence, sellers without (of course) imply it's a potential financial timebomb with no real benefit unless you're Walter Rohl
Rear plexi screen on RS's. Do these tend to " craze"? Under sunlight the one I viewed had very slight crazing which almost looked like the tint was lifting, but it wasn't.
Do all 997.1 GT3s & RSs share the same switchable exhaust (with whatever bypass function it has for quiet/loud)?
Intended use is as a weekend car with perhaps half a dozen trackdays per year. Are there any running cost differences between a GT3 and RS - as they're essentially the same, all I could see was a difference in rear tyre? (Don't want this to spark another "don't get a 997.1 RS, get a Gen 2 GT3 instead" debate)
Prices seem to vary quite a bit at the mo - what is an acceptable mileage for an 07 car? I'm making an assumption servicing and condition is more important than simply low miles. They seem to vary between 10 and 30k - 10 seems too low, 30 is low for an average car but seems high for a GT3. Are there any major pitfalls to check apart from the normal used car must do's?
Budget is as little as possible to 68k.
Thanks in advance for any information.
I'm looking to buy a GT3, most likely a 997.1. I've viewed a few already and have another couple lined up this week.
I'm hoping there is someone on here who can offer some practical advice from actual experience. I've tried to read up on all the info I can find and any buyers guides, but a journos view and an owners view can be quite different. Apologies if this has been covered before, the search function is currently down.
1 I viewed smoked (blue/white) on start up, but not after. Having searched on this, it seems it's not uncommon, but I assume it's not normal either? Blue smoke to me = bad but there seems to be quite a few examples of this which the owners seem to simply accept.
PCCB. Sellers with this option evangelise their existence, sellers without (of course) imply it's a potential financial timebomb with no real benefit unless you're Walter Rohl
Rear plexi screen on RS's. Do these tend to " craze"? Under sunlight the one I viewed had very slight crazing which almost looked like the tint was lifting, but it wasn't.
Do all 997.1 GT3s & RSs share the same switchable exhaust (with whatever bypass function it has for quiet/loud)?
Intended use is as a weekend car with perhaps half a dozen trackdays per year. Are there any running cost differences between a GT3 and RS - as they're essentially the same, all I could see was a difference in rear tyre? (Don't want this to spark another "don't get a 997.1 RS, get a Gen 2 GT3 instead" debate)
Prices seem to vary quite a bit at the mo - what is an acceptable mileage for an 07 car? I'm making an assumption servicing and condition is more important than simply low miles. They seem to vary between 10 and 30k - 10 seems too low, 30 is low for an average car but seems high for a GT3. Are there any major pitfalls to check apart from the normal used car must do's?
Budget is as little as possible to 68k.
Thanks in advance for any information.
My 07 usually blows blue smoke on start up, sometimes badly and other times not at all.
Mine has only just gone through 10k miles and has had all the scheduled minor/major services - not sure why you think that is a problem, although mine is comfort spec so worthless anyway (certainly much less than your 68k budget)?
Switchable exhaust is standard throughout on 7's.
Suspension, brakes and clutches apparently wear out quite quickly, so above 20k miles may need attention?
Mine has only just gone through 10k miles and has had all the scheduled minor/major services - not sure why you think that is a problem, although mine is comfort spec so worthless anyway (certainly much less than your 68k budget)?
Switchable exhaust is standard throughout on 7's.
Suspension, brakes and clutches apparently wear out quite quickly, so above 20k miles may need attention?
Edited by nsm3 on Monday 27th February 08:04
Trev450 said:
One point to consider with an RS is that you cannot get normal road tyres in the correct size for the rears so are stuck using Cups or similar.
This is incorrect - I run Michelin Cups in the summer and PS2s N-rated in the winter for the extra grooves (helps a lot in the rain/snow) without any problem sourcing or fitting them.Edited by 911Thrasher on Monday 27th February 10:50
don't over pay for one is my advice
this took ages to sell and was up 2 or 3 times, and then sold at the right price, and it's a nice spec.
53k
http://www.pistonheads.com/sales/3217161.htm
don't think you can buy a comfort for 5k less than clubsport and then fit the Carbon buckets, you will be shocked at the price to retro fit.
remember buying private at this price is rare as people don't have the cash and also there is no warranty on these cars now, unless they have extended it. So only offer 2k above trade price.
Don't get caught up thinking you are safe buying from a 3rd party dealer because they cost more, most 3rd party warranties are short.
High miles on these cars kills the price by another 10k so watch the milage.
Great cars imo, but over priced in my view atm so I looked eslewhere, unless the seller is realisitic about how much it's worth.
look out for the 4 year service tyres/disks/ Clutch that lot could add up fast and all need doing.
53k for a comfort is about right
56k for a Clubsport
68k for a RS
as long as the miles are not too high on them and the tyres are good, worth a bit more if 2 year warranty on them and it's had a clutch.(not the RS I think the RS are not worth >68k)
I would buy a 996 GT3 at ther right price 36k, and buy a 997.2 GT3 <70k next year and miss out the 997.1 GT3 unless you can pick up a clubsport with 2 years warranty and low miles for 55k.
that's only imo and what view I took on them.
this took ages to sell and was up 2 or 3 times, and then sold at the right price, and it's a nice spec.
53k
http://www.pistonheads.com/sales/3217161.htm
don't think you can buy a comfort for 5k less than clubsport and then fit the Carbon buckets, you will be shocked at the price to retro fit.
remember buying private at this price is rare as people don't have the cash and also there is no warranty on these cars now, unless they have extended it. So only offer 2k above trade price.
Don't get caught up thinking you are safe buying from a 3rd party dealer because they cost more, most 3rd party warranties are short.
High miles on these cars kills the price by another 10k so watch the milage.
Great cars imo, but over priced in my view atm so I looked eslewhere, unless the seller is realisitic about how much it's worth.
look out for the 4 year service tyres/disks/ Clutch that lot could add up fast and all need doing.
53k for a comfort is about right
56k for a Clubsport
68k for a RS
as long as the miles are not too high on them and the tyres are good, worth a bit more if 2 year warranty on them and it's had a clutch.(not the RS I think the RS are not worth >68k)
I would buy a 996 GT3 at ther right price 36k, and buy a 997.2 GT3 <70k next year and miss out the 997.1 GT3 unless you can pick up a clubsport with 2 years warranty and low miles for 55k.
that's only imo and what view I took on them.
Edited by mrdemon on Monday 27th February 10:29
I bought a 997.1 GT3 "comfort" a couple fo years ago, I'm no expert but here are a few useful things I've learnt:
1. Mileage - most seem to do around 3k per year and whilst they appear very robust, car's with higher mileage lose value simply because there are soo many low mileage cars available. Therefore your 07 plate car should be around 15k miles on average.
2. Brakes - I went for steels as I wanted to do some track days and had read that the ceramics could get expensive. A friend bought a 996 GT3 RS with Ceramics at the same time and so we have been able to compare as we have done the same track days. I will have replaced a complete set of discs and pads and will be going for Alcon's at the front as the standard steel discs crack far too easilly with track use. My friend is still on original ceramics, but then he has not put it in the gravel and is probably slightly more gentle on the brakes than I am. The reduced unsprung weight is noticiable in terms of the steering feel and a massive benefit is the absence of brake dust. On a track day mine ends up with brake dust all over the sides and rear of the car. It is possible to convert to steels from ceramics for track day use as many owners do (according to JZM) so you could start with Ceramics and change if they aren't for you.
3. Rear main Seal - many have a "sweat patch" around this area, according to JZM most leak abit and it gets worse with lack of use as the seal is designed to work with low pressure in the crankcase. Therefore unless oil is leaking out when running this should not be a cause for too much concern - if you read this forum alot then you could be lead to believe that this means its the end of the world.
4. I have had issues with gravel rash on the side of my car, just ahead of the rear wheels as there is very little paint protection and mine needed re-painting recently. It would be worth inspecting this area closing on any car you are going to buy. I think the GT3 is the worst for this as the GT3 RS has a plastic sill cover. Porsche had kindly put a note in the handbook stating that the is naff all protection and you should inspect it regularly and get it touched up - gets them out of paint work warranty claims!
5. Tyres are expensive so check that its got the correct rubber on when you get it - pzero corsas or michelin pilot sport cups.
6. Front rads seem to rot through quickly due to them being relatively exposed - its the air con rads that sit in front of the main rads, both of mine have been replaced due to leaks whiCh show up as a dark stain on the rad as the oil in the air con gas leaks out.
7. Smoke on start up, mine seems to produce white smoke on start up if its been driven enthusiastically before being put away in the garage - it will then smoke abit next time I start it up. This appears to be quite common but is more white and not blue.
8 Spec - has quite an influence on value - mine didn't have a couple of things I'd have liked but did have some others, I supose my point here is make sure the car has the spec you want so you don't regret it later.
9. Rev ranges - get the car checked out by a specialist and get them to check the rev ranges to ensure that the car has not been over reved. There appears to have been many threads on PH about this but the key is to ensure that there have been no botched gear changes that have overev'd the engine rather than simply running it to the limiter under normal load. Whilst doing this they can also check the engine running hours against the odometer to validate mileage.
10. Geometry - the cars handling is very sensitive to set-up and many will have setting different from the factory set-up. I test drove a car with a full track day set-up and it felt great but did sniff out every camber and rut. The standard factory set-up feels a bit dull and un-responsive. My car has a halfway house between fast road and track set-up done by JZM. Since this can be change very easily dont let this sway your decision on which car you choose - and defintely get the set-up checked and adjusted to your needs so ensure you get the most enjoyment out of the car.
GT3 vs GT3 RS - they are basically the same car underneath, engine and transmission are basicaly the same. The RS body is wider at the rear and runs 325 rather than 305 rear tyres. However, the RS seems to maintain value better and appear to get quite a premium over the GT3, although they were 15k more expensive when new.
Doesnt seem to be much in it performance wise on track days, no different between my GT3 and a 997.1 GT3 RS. I started a thread recently about 997.1GT3 RS vs 997.2GT3 as they are similar money. You may find your budget would stretch to a 997.2 GT3?
Which ever you go with, I have really enjoyed my GT3, the feel, performance and sound are phenominal. I love the way I can cruise across Europe in reasonable comfort, then press the sport button, press the PASM button and it makes a fantastic track car.
1. Mileage - most seem to do around 3k per year and whilst they appear very robust, car's with higher mileage lose value simply because there are soo many low mileage cars available. Therefore your 07 plate car should be around 15k miles on average.
2. Brakes - I went for steels as I wanted to do some track days and had read that the ceramics could get expensive. A friend bought a 996 GT3 RS with Ceramics at the same time and so we have been able to compare as we have done the same track days. I will have replaced a complete set of discs and pads and will be going for Alcon's at the front as the standard steel discs crack far too easilly with track use. My friend is still on original ceramics, but then he has not put it in the gravel and is probably slightly more gentle on the brakes than I am. The reduced unsprung weight is noticiable in terms of the steering feel and a massive benefit is the absence of brake dust. On a track day mine ends up with brake dust all over the sides and rear of the car. It is possible to convert to steels from ceramics for track day use as many owners do (according to JZM) so you could start with Ceramics and change if they aren't for you.
3. Rear main Seal - many have a "sweat patch" around this area, according to JZM most leak abit and it gets worse with lack of use as the seal is designed to work with low pressure in the crankcase. Therefore unless oil is leaking out when running this should not be a cause for too much concern - if you read this forum alot then you could be lead to believe that this means its the end of the world.
4. I have had issues with gravel rash on the side of my car, just ahead of the rear wheels as there is very little paint protection and mine needed re-painting recently. It would be worth inspecting this area closing on any car you are going to buy. I think the GT3 is the worst for this as the GT3 RS has a plastic sill cover. Porsche had kindly put a note in the handbook stating that the is naff all protection and you should inspect it regularly and get it touched up - gets them out of paint work warranty claims!
5. Tyres are expensive so check that its got the correct rubber on when you get it - pzero corsas or michelin pilot sport cups.
6. Front rads seem to rot through quickly due to them being relatively exposed - its the air con rads that sit in front of the main rads, both of mine have been replaced due to leaks whiCh show up as a dark stain on the rad as the oil in the air con gas leaks out.
7. Smoke on start up, mine seems to produce white smoke on start up if its been driven enthusiastically before being put away in the garage - it will then smoke abit next time I start it up. This appears to be quite common but is more white and not blue.
8 Spec - has quite an influence on value - mine didn't have a couple of things I'd have liked but did have some others, I supose my point here is make sure the car has the spec you want so you don't regret it later.
9. Rev ranges - get the car checked out by a specialist and get them to check the rev ranges to ensure that the car has not been over reved. There appears to have been many threads on PH about this but the key is to ensure that there have been no botched gear changes that have overev'd the engine rather than simply running it to the limiter under normal load. Whilst doing this they can also check the engine running hours against the odometer to validate mileage.
10. Geometry - the cars handling is very sensitive to set-up and many will have setting different from the factory set-up. I test drove a car with a full track day set-up and it felt great but did sniff out every camber and rut. The standard factory set-up feels a bit dull and un-responsive. My car has a halfway house between fast road and track set-up done by JZM. Since this can be change very easily dont let this sway your decision on which car you choose - and defintely get the set-up checked and adjusted to your needs so ensure you get the most enjoyment out of the car.
GT3 vs GT3 RS - they are basically the same car underneath, engine and transmission are basicaly the same. The RS body is wider at the rear and runs 325 rather than 305 rear tyres. However, the RS seems to maintain value better and appear to get quite a premium over the GT3, although they were 15k more expensive when new.
Doesnt seem to be much in it performance wise on track days, no different between my GT3 and a 997.1 GT3 RS. I started a thread recently about 997.1GT3 RS vs 997.2GT3 as they are similar money. You may find your budget would stretch to a 997.2 GT3?
Which ever you go with, I have really enjoyed my GT3, the feel, performance and sound are phenominal. I love the way I can cruise across Europe in reasonable comfort, then press the sport button, press the PASM button and it makes a fantastic track car.
Mine can smoke a touch on startup. I have steel brakes which I purposely went for, never had a problems (ie fade) and they offer fantastic stopping power imo.
My cars done 32k miles which looking at the current cars for sale appears to be quite alot. Only problem I had was about a month after purchase (@ 14k) I experience some creaking from the front end (only happened in the wet) and had to get various top mounts and linkages replaced under warrenty.
Running costs have been fairly minimal, PS2 tyres seem to last well, not much oil used, servicing prices reasonable and the car will even do 28mpg at a steady cruise.
My cars done 32k miles which looking at the current cars for sale appears to be quite alot. Only problem I had was about a month after purchase (@ 14k) I experience some creaking from the front end (only happened in the wet) and had to get various top mounts and linkages replaced under warrenty.
Running costs have been fairly minimal, PS2 tyres seem to last well, not much oil used, servicing prices reasonable and the car will even do 28mpg at a steady cruise.
911Thrasher said:
Trev450 said:
One point to consider with an RS is that you cannot get normal road tyres in the correct size for the rears so are stuck using Cups or similar.
This is incorrect - I run Michelin Cups in the summer and PS2s in the winter for the extra grooves (helps a lot in the rain/snow) without any problem sourcing or fitting them.
Trev450 said:
I'm sure I read somewhere that you couldn't get the correct sizes for the rears in PS2's or similar. Clearly I was mistaken
Sorry maybe a mis-understanding, but for the 997.1 GT3 and RS, PS2 are available in N2: front 235/35 ZR19 and rear 305/30 ZR19(indeed not available in 245 front and 325 rear for 997.2 and 4.0 RS)
from Michelin website: available in all width/height 997.1 GT3 and RS run
http://www.michelin.co.uk/tyres/michelin-pilot-spo...
Blackcircle carries them too £350 something:
http://www.blackcircles.com/catalogue/michelin/pil...
Edited by 911Thrasher on Monday 27th February 11:09
Regarding the smoking, I posted this little video on a couple of sites for advice when I first got mine and the responses were that it is pretty normal (the OPC also confirmed). I still keep an OPC warranty on it though, can't be to careful with a £40k engine in the back!!
http://www.flickr.com/photos/55311279@N05/51538972...
Apologies in advance for the music and the state of the paving !
http://www.flickr.com/photos/55311279@N05/51538972...
Apologies in advance for the music and the state of the paving !
911Thrasher said:
Trev450 said:
I'm sure I read somewhere that you couldn't get the correct sizes for the rears in PS2's or similar. Clearly I was mistaken
Sorry maybe a mis-understanding, but for the 997.1 GT3 and RS, PS2 are available in N2: front 235/35 ZR19 and rear 305/30 ZR19(indeed not available in 245 front and 325 rear for 997.2 and 4.0 RS)
from Michelin website: available in all width/height 997.1 GT3 and RS run
http://www.michelin.co.uk/tyres/michelin-pilot-spo...
Blackcircle carries them too £350 something:
http://www.blackcircles.com/catalogue/michelin/pil...
Edited by 911Thrasher on Monday 27th February 11:09
mrdemon said:
53k for a comfort is about right
But perhaps an optimistic target for the buyer. My 07 997.1 GT3 comfort just sold in the dead of winter for considerably more than that, albeit through a dealer, but even after the SoR margin I made comfortably more. It was a 13k mile car with extended leather, unmarked Meteor Grey paint, and PCCBs. The biggest factor in achieving that price was, I'm sure, the condition of the car - it was a lot nicer than some of the OPC prep'd cars I'd looked at when I bought it.To answer the questions, a little smoke on startup is normal for a flat engine, more so if it's been left for a week or two.
PCCBs are nothing to be scared of, but you do need someone experienced to check them for damage, especially for chips around the edge of the disc. Lots of track work can kill them, but equally lots of people seem to have no problem with them on track; I'd be more scared of knackering them in a trip through the gravel.
The exhaust system is the same for the mk1 GT3 and RS; it has bypass valves on the side mufflers that open at high revs, more so with the sport button pressed, along with the TC being loosened off and the throttle map being geared differently. You can force the valves to be open permanently by pulling an electrical connector in the engine bay, but that introduces a lot of drone in the mid range.
Good luck, they're an amazing car!
Pete
Trev450 said:
One point to consider with an RS is that you cannot get normal road tyres in the correct size for the rears so are stuck using Cups or similar.
Where did you get this gem of information from ? Michelin Pilot Supersports, Michelin Pilot Sport 2s or Pirelli P Zero Rossos (not that I'd fit Rossos on a shopping trolley let alone a GT3/RS) are all "normal road tyres" and available in the correct size for the rear of the GT3 RS (which incidentally is EXACTLY the same size as the vanilla GT3)
Edited by Slippydiff on Monday 27th February 19:37
nsm3 said:
pete said:
mrdemon said:
53k for a comfort is about right
But perhaps an optimistic target for the buyer. My 07 997.1 GT3 comfort just sold in the dead of winter for considerably more than that......Pete
[I want a GT3 so]
- They're all overpriced
- They all blow coolant
- Dont pay more than £9 for one
- ITS BEEN ON TRACK!!! CALL OUT THE HOUNDS OF DOOM!!!
and
[I own a GT3 so]
- They're all a bargain at the moment
- They never break
- They're all worth £50million
My opinion (feel free to ignore it)
Look at what people are asking.
Negotiate a sensible discount based on condition / forthcoming services / state of consumables (tyres/clutch/brakes etc)
Enjoy what is probably one of the best, most engaging, rewarding driving machines ever made.
Prices seem to firm up in March/April and stay strong over summer, then tail off again in September, and are at their lowest in December/January.
Good luck, godspeed.
The good Dr Pep.
drpep said:
This thread is in grave danger of becoming a:
[I want a GT3 so]
- They're all overpriced
- They all blow coolant
- Dont pay more than £9 for one
- ITS BEEN ON TRACK!!! CALL OUT THE HOUNDS OF DOOM!!!
and
[I own a GT3 so]
- They're all a bargain at the moment
- They never break
- They're all worth £50million
My opinion (feel free to ignore it)
Look at what people are asking.
Negotiate a sensible discount based on condition / forthcoming services / state of consumables (tyres/clutch/brakes etc)
Enjoy what is probably one of the best, most engaging, rewarding driving machines ever made.
Prices seem to firm up in March/April and stay strong over summer, then tail off again in September, and are at their lowest in December/January.
Good luck, godspeed.
The good Dr Pep.
Hi Nigel, all the above true (except for this bit)[I want a GT3 so]
- They're all overpriced
- They all blow coolant
- Dont pay more than £9 for one
- ITS BEEN ON TRACK!!! CALL OUT THE HOUNDS OF DOOM!!!
and
[I own a GT3 so]
- They're all a bargain at the moment
- They never break
- They're all worth £50million
My opinion (feel free to ignore it)
Look at what people are asking.
Negotiate a sensible discount based on condition / forthcoming services / state of consumables (tyres/clutch/brakes etc)
Enjoy what is probably one of the best, most engaging, rewarding driving machines ever made.
Prices seem to firm up in March/April and stay strong over summer, then tail off again in September, and are at their lowest in December/January.
Good luck, godspeed.
The good Dr Pep.
drpep said:
Enjoy what is probably one of the best, most engaging, rewarding driving machines ever made.
I think that might be over-egging the mix slightly, Have you driven Bens Mk1 996 GT3 yet ? or indeed a 964 RS, they are truly engaging machines. The Gen 1 997 GT3 is an epic car, but engaging, when compared with the earlier cars ? they're not in the same league.Re: PCCB
I think the ceramics on the 997 are 3rd generation and therefore improved over the 996 version and miles ahead of the early ones that caused so many problems on gen 2 GT2s.
I found that they are better at low speed than the steels ,no dust, seem to benefit the ride and are hugely powerful. Considering how good the steels are its impressive that they seem to offer even more.
No difference in engines on paper but the 996 cars were the same on paper too and the RS's seemed to be the pick of the bunch dyno wise.
I found the 997 carbon seats uncomfortable myself, too narrow and not a patch on the 996 seats.In light of them costing over £3k as an option thats very disappointing.
Sport Cups on the rear are a bit of a joke. They start with 5mm of tread , wear rapidly and tried to kill me on a wet autobahn
Corsas much better.
PS2s or Super Sports for day to day make more sense.
I think the ceramics on the 997 are 3rd generation and therefore improved over the 996 version and miles ahead of the early ones that caused so many problems on gen 2 GT2s.
I found that they are better at low speed than the steels ,no dust, seem to benefit the ride and are hugely powerful. Considering how good the steels are its impressive that they seem to offer even more.
No difference in engines on paper but the 996 cars were the same on paper too and the RS's seemed to be the pick of the bunch dyno wise.
I found the 997 carbon seats uncomfortable myself, too narrow and not a patch on the 996 seats.In light of them costing over £3k as an option thats very disappointing.
Sport Cups on the rear are a bit of a joke. They start with 5mm of tread , wear rapidly and tried to kill me on a wet autobahn
Corsas much better.
PS2s or Super Sports for day to day make more sense.
Thanks for all the replies.
I completely accept a 997.1 RS is realistically no more capable than a 997.1 GT3, and there's not a huge amount of logic in paying £10k more for one, or not buying a technically superior 997.2 GT3 for the same price. But...having been in both, the RS feels more special, there's no doubt about it. Amazing what a fancy paint job and carbon wing can do
Head is still fighting with heart though, have another round of viewings this weekend crossing a wide spectrum of prices. Is anyone familar with this car?
http://www.pistonheads.com/sales/3665208.htm
Have also seen this which looks great but is perhaps priced too high considering its spec?
http://www.pistonheads.com/sales/3631468.htm
Going back to my question on the RS's rear screen crazing, would be interested to find out if this is normal.
Thanks again for all the info and advice
I completely accept a 997.1 RS is realistically no more capable than a 997.1 GT3, and there's not a huge amount of logic in paying £10k more for one, or not buying a technically superior 997.2 GT3 for the same price. But...having been in both, the RS feels more special, there's no doubt about it. Amazing what a fancy paint job and carbon wing can do
Head is still fighting with heart though, have another round of viewings this weekend crossing a wide spectrum of prices. Is anyone familar with this car?
http://www.pistonheads.com/sales/3665208.htm
Have also seen this which looks great but is perhaps priced too high considering its spec?
http://www.pistonheads.com/sales/3631468.htm
Going back to my question on the RS's rear screen crazing, would be interested to find out if this is normal.
Thanks again for all the info and advice
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