Keeping your tax disc, SORN and UnSOrN
Discussion
Very useful post just happened in Classic Cars
http://www.pistonheads.com/gassing/topic.asp?h=0&a...
SORN is a declaration that youre keeping your vehicle off road and that you wont use it on road again until it's insured and taxed (or if youre going to get an MOT to get it taxed)
If you change your mind and it's taxed and insured you can use it straightaway, theres nothing illegal about using a car while SORN ( if its taxed and insured), it's combinations of no tax, no insurance or no SORN that's illegal
The problem is that DVLAs big computer assumes that if youve register SORN youve also cancelled your tax, which you may have done or worse they may have done.
As it doesnt matter about unSORNing, ( except you may get excessive ANPR pulls) until this post the only time DVLA unSORNs your car is when you take out new tax or when it has a new keeper.
In a previous thread when someone SORNed ( for no insurance) kept their tax disc and sold the car, DVLA unSORNed it and changed its status to noTAX due to their assumption that tax was cancelled. The new keeper rather than argue with DVLA bought new TAX ( its good money if you can get it)
In this post you have managed to phone DVLA and get the status changed from SORN to TAXed.
That's brilliant. It's shows DVLA did accept your car was still taxed and can follow what the law says after all
http://www.pistonheads.com/gassing/topic.asp?h=0&a...
andyps said:
Actually, it can be a real PITA to stay within. My experience was that having purchased another car in early January I declared the previous one SORN as it was not insured temporarily, When doing so there is no requirement to request a refund of the outstanding tax or return the disc so I didn't as I fully intended to re-insure it. Before the end of January I did re-insure the car but couldn't use it as it was SORN. There is no obvious way to un-SORN a car if you have a valid tax disc, which I did. Not only did I have a valid tax disc, I had been sent a replacement on by DVLA having transferred a private plate from the SORNed car to my new one whilst it was SORNed. I phoned DVLA and they did un-SORN it but told me I should have sent the previous disc in for a refund.
Had I sent the disc in for a refund at the point of SORN I would not have received a refund for January as it was already January. To start using the car again at the end of January I would have had to tax it from the beginning of January (for which I had already paid, but wouldn't have had refunded). So, to comply with the law I would have paid twice for the same month, and almost certainly had to pay out before getting whatever refund I was entitled to. How would that be fair? Fortunately I managed to get round it, but doing so wasn't easy and the implication from the DVLA was that it may not always be possible to do what I did.
This is actually a very useful post, If youre ok I want to add this to a sticky or FAQ.Had I sent the disc in for a refund at the point of SORN I would not have received a refund for January as it was already January. To start using the car again at the end of January I would have had to tax it from the beginning of January (for which I had already paid, but wouldn't have had refunded). So, to comply with the law I would have paid twice for the same month, and almost certainly had to pay out before getting whatever refund I was entitled to. How would that be fair? Fortunately I managed to get round it, but doing so wasn't easy and the implication from the DVLA was that it may not always be possible to do what I did.
SORN is a declaration that youre keeping your vehicle off road and that you wont use it on road again until it's insured and taxed (or if youre going to get an MOT to get it taxed)
If you change your mind and it's taxed and insured you can use it straightaway, theres nothing illegal about using a car while SORN ( if its taxed and insured), it's combinations of no tax, no insurance or no SORN that's illegal
The problem is that DVLAs big computer assumes that if youve register SORN youve also cancelled your tax, which you may have done or worse they may have done.
As it doesnt matter about unSORNing, ( except you may get excessive ANPR pulls) until this post the only time DVLA unSORNs your car is when you take out new tax or when it has a new keeper.
In a previous thread when someone SORNed ( for no insurance) kept their tax disc and sold the car, DVLA unSORNed it and changed its status to noTAX due to their assumption that tax was cancelled. The new keeper rather than argue with DVLA bought new TAX ( its good money if you can get it)
In this post you have managed to phone DVLA and get the status changed from SORN to TAXed.
That's brilliant. It's shows DVLA did accept your car was still taxed and can follow what the law says after all
Considering tax refunds generally takes months!!
Plenty of people will make a car SORN to transfer their insurance to their new car, wanting to sell their old one taxed so this is the only way to do it or is there an online version, if not why not?
Stupid system thought up only by bloody buerocrats so they can make jobs. It does not cure the problem they were tyring to fix.
Plenty of people will make a car SORN to transfer their insurance to their new car, wanting to sell their old one taxed so this is the only way to do it or is there an online version, if not why not?
Stupid system thought up only by bloody buerocrats so they can make jobs. It does not cure the problem they were tyring to fix.
While I'm not disputing his situation, there's no evidence to say that this is going to be their standard practice. I know you're proud that you've found a loophole in their wording, but I can't see them sticking with it for that long - it's probable that they simply haven't had that many people bring this up yet.
The intention of their setup is clear (everything is written to imply that tax and SORN cannot exist at the same time), and while 'what the DVLA say' isn't law, it still counts for something. I can't see your loophole lasting that long, tbh.
The intention of their setup is clear (everything is written to imply that tax and SORN cannot exist at the same time), and while 'what the DVLA say' isn't law, it still counts for something. I can't see your loophole lasting that long, tbh.
Meoricin said:
While I'm not disputing his situation, there's no evidence to say that this is going to be their standard practice. I know you're proud that you've found a loophole in their wording, but I can't see them sticking with it for that long - it's probable that they simply haven't had that many people bring this up yet.
The intention of their setup is clear (everything is written to imply that tax and SORN cannot exist at the same time), and while 'what the DVLA say' isn't law, it still counts for something. I can't see your loophole lasting that long, tbh.
Doh it's not 'my loophole'The intention of their setup is clear (everything is written to imply that tax and SORN cannot exist at the same time), and while 'what the DVLA say' isn't law, it still counts for something. I can't see your loophole lasting that long, tbh.
It's the way the law is written, the law writers might even have had motor homes or classic cars themselves. If theyd wanted to say you must cancel your tax (or insurance) as soon as you declare SORN theyd have said it.
Thats what we were originally worried the law was going to say.
As I think FiF said the other day in the streetlights thread why is it that when the law is deliberately written the way it is for a purpose, someone says that's a loophole? Think of all the revenue DVLA can keep by keepers not needing to cancel their discs and all the buracracy saved by not having to cancel take out a new one to the nearest month boundary when you fancy taking your car out one day.
If it's too onerous people won't bother with the system and take their cars out for short jaunts uninsured and untaxed - the opposite of whats intended.
The original intent behind the SORN legislation was to create a mechanism to allow DVLA to keep track of untaxed vehicles. The legislation was framed to deal with that. The presumption was that SORN would be declared upon expiry or return of a tax disc.
There has now been scope creep to catch uninsured vehicles through the same mechanism.
There has now been scope creep to catch uninsured vehicles through the same mechanism.
marshalla said:
The original intent behind the SORN legislation was to create a mechanism to allow DVLA to keep track of untaxed vehicles. The legislation was framed to deal with that. The presumption was that SORN would be declared upon expiry or return of a tax disc.
There has now been scope creep to catch uninsured vehicles through the same mechanism.
yepThere has now been scope creep to catch uninsured vehicles through the same mechanism.
You must declare SORN before your tax or insurance runs out. It doesn't say how long before. It doesn't say you must cancel either on doing so.
If your tax runs out and you havent SORN you should get a fine straightaway ( although some posters have reported theyve managed to retax late without getting one - dont rely on it)
If they think your insurance has run out and you havnt SORN they say they'll write to you to sort it out before issuing a fine but dont rely on it see the classic car thread.
saaby93 said:
oh it's not 'my loophole'
It's the way the law is written, the law writers might even have had motor homes or classic cars themselves. If theyd wanted to say you must cancel your tax (or insurance) as soon as you declare SORN theyd have said it.
Thats what we were originally worried the law was going to say.
Your are crediting the writers of legislation with a bit more than they have demonstrated over the years.It's the way the law is written, the law writers might even have had motor homes or classic cars themselves. If theyd wanted to say you must cancel your tax (or insurance) as soon as you declare SORN theyd have said it.
Thats what we were originally worried the law was going to say.
Consider the Human Tissue Act - it was written to stop medics storing body parts for prolonged periods without demonstrating need to do so. Unfortunately the phrase "tissue sample" was ill defined in the act and resulted in many more legitimate uses being put into the situation of immediately becoming illegal without a licence. Amending regulations were issued to clarify the situation and take most non-medical uses out of the scope of the Act.
Intent does not always match the words used. This is especially true when the legislation is re-used through scope creep to achieve another goal.
For your SORN + Tax situation to work as you described it, someone needs to take it through the courts to get a proper judicial ruling and establish a precedent.
marshalla said:
For your SORN + Tax situation to work as you described it, someone needs to take it through the courts to get a proper judicial ruling and establish a precedent.
Nail/head. Nothing else matters. It needs someone to be done for no tax when they have not returned the disk for a refund and then try to show in court that they HAVE complied with their legal requirement to have valid tax.
Given the infrequency of this, DVLA will no doubt do the pragmatic thing in the meantime and allow the existing disk...if that suits them.
marshalla said:
For your SORN + Tax situation to work as you described it, someone needs to take it through the courts to get a proper judicial ruling and establish a precedent.
It's not my SORN+Tax situation lol, it's how it's writtenNoger said:
Nail/head. Nothing else matters.
It needs someone to be done for no tax when they have not returned the disk for a refund and then try to show in court that they HAVE complied with their legal requirement to have valid tax.
or more like the other way, DVLA would needs to try to take some poor soul to court to show they haven'tIt needs someone to be done for no tax when they have not returned the disk for a refund and then try to show in court that they HAVE complied with their legal requirement to have valid tax.
Noger said:
Given the infrequency of this, DVLA will no doubt do the pragmatic thing in the meantime and allow the existing disk...if that suits them.
yep, from previous posts here and in classic cars it seems to depend who you get on the other end of the phone.ETA
Remember that the intent of all this was to prevent people using uninsured cars on the road rather than to start fining people for keeping a jalopy on bricks in the shed out the back although the net is wide enough to do that.
As far as I can tell they didn't want a rerun of when SORN/notax came in and many of the customers were garages keeping old cars/vans out the back.
Edited by saaby93 on Wednesday 14th March 09:25
Which bit of the regulations say can make a SORN declaration and retain the vehicle licence ?
These are the only sections which describe the circumstances for SORN - in all of them, the licence is invalidated FIRST and the SORN follows immediately afterwards. It does not make provision for SORN to be declared prior to expiry or surrender of the licence.Statutory Off Road Notification Regulations 1997 said:
3. These Regulations have effect for the purpose of prescribing the particulars to be furnished and the declarations to be made, and the times at which and the manner in which they are to be furnished or made, by a person—
(a)who surrenders a vehicle licence for a vehicle;
(b)who does not renew such a licence; or
(c)who keeps an unlicensed vehicle.
...
Surrender of vehicle licence
5.—(1) Where after 31st January 1998 the holder of a vehicle licence surrenders it under section 10(2) of the 1994 Act, he shall make the required declaration and furnish the required particulars in relation to the vehicle for which the licence was taken out.
(2) Paragraph (1) does not apply where the vehicle to which the licence relates is no longer kept by the holder of the licence or the holder is a motor vehicle trader in relation to that vehicle.
Vehicle licence not renewed
6. Where, on or after 31st January 1998, a vehicle licence ceases to be in force for a vehicle by reason of the expiration of the period for which the licence was granted and a further vehicle licence (or if appropriate a nil licence) for the vehicle is not taken out so as to run from the expiration of that period, the keeper of the vehicle shall make the required declaration and furnish the required particulars in relation to the vehicle—
(a)if he is a motor trader, not later than the end of the period of three months starting with the day following the expiration of that period; or
(b)in any other case, not later than that day.
(a)who surrenders a vehicle licence for a vehicle;
(b)who does not renew such a licence; or
(c)who keeps an unlicensed vehicle.
...
Surrender of vehicle licence
5.—(1) Where after 31st January 1998 the holder of a vehicle licence surrenders it under section 10(2) of the 1994 Act, he shall make the required declaration and furnish the required particulars in relation to the vehicle for which the licence was taken out.
(2) Paragraph (1) does not apply where the vehicle to which the licence relates is no longer kept by the holder of the licence or the holder is a motor vehicle trader in relation to that vehicle.
Vehicle licence not renewed
6. Where, on or after 31st January 1998, a vehicle licence ceases to be in force for a vehicle by reason of the expiration of the period for which the licence was granted and a further vehicle licence (or if appropriate a nil licence) for the vehicle is not taken out so as to run from the expiration of that period, the keeper of the vehicle shall make the required declaration and furnish the required particulars in relation to the vehicle—
(a)if he is a motor trader, not later than the end of the period of three months starting with the day following the expiration of that period; or
(b)in any other case, not later than that day.
The Road Vehicles Registration and Licensing Regulations 2002 said:
Statutory off-road notification
26. Schedule 4 shall have effect for the purpose of prescribing, the particulars to be furnished and the declarations to be made, and the times at which and the circumstances and manner in which they are to be made, by a person who—
(a)surrenders a vehicle licence;
(b)does not renew a vehicle licence on its expiration; or
(c)keeps an unlicensed vehicle.
...
Schedule IV
PART II
Vehicles Registered in the GB Records and Kept in Great Britain
Surrender of a vehicle licence—relevant GB vehicle
3.—(1) When the holder of a vehicle licence for a relevant GB vehicle surrenders it under section 10(2) of the 1994 Act, he shall deliver to the Secretary of State the required declaration and the required particulars in relation to that vehicle.
(2) Paragraph (1) does not apply where a relevant GB vehicle is no longer kept by the holder of the licence or the holder is a relevant vehicle trader in relation to that vehicle.
Expiry of vehicle licence or nil licence—relevant GB vehicle
4. Where a vehicle licence or nil licence ceases to be in force for a relevant GB vehicle by reason of the expiration of the period for which the licence was granted and a vehicle licence or nil licence for the vehicle is not taken out so as to run from the expiration of that period, the keeper of the vehicle shall deliver to the Secretary of State the required declaration and the required particulars in relation to the vehicle—
(a)if he is a relevant vehicle trader, not later than the end of the period of three months starting with the day following the expired period; or
(b)in any other case, not later than that day.
26. Schedule 4 shall have effect for the purpose of prescribing, the particulars to be furnished and the declarations to be made, and the times at which and the circumstances and manner in which they are to be made, by a person who—
(a)surrenders a vehicle licence;
(b)does not renew a vehicle licence on its expiration; or
(c)keeps an unlicensed vehicle.
...
Schedule IV
PART II
Vehicles Registered in the GB Records and Kept in Great Britain
Surrender of a vehicle licence—relevant GB vehicle
3.—(1) When the holder of a vehicle licence for a relevant GB vehicle surrenders it under section 10(2) of the 1994 Act, he shall deliver to the Secretary of State the required declaration and the required particulars in relation to that vehicle.
(2) Paragraph (1) does not apply where a relevant GB vehicle is no longer kept by the holder of the licence or the holder is a relevant vehicle trader in relation to that vehicle.
Expiry of vehicle licence or nil licence—relevant GB vehicle
4. Where a vehicle licence or nil licence ceases to be in force for a relevant GB vehicle by reason of the expiration of the period for which the licence was granted and a vehicle licence or nil licence for the vehicle is not taken out so as to run from the expiration of that period, the keeper of the vehicle shall deliver to the Secretary of State the required declaration and the required particulars in relation to the vehicle—
(a)if he is a relevant vehicle trader, not later than the end of the period of three months starting with the day following the expired period; or
(b)in any other case, not later than that day.
Edited by marshalla on Wednesday 14th March 09:29
Thats just a few of the reasons for declaring SORN
Youre also now allowed to declare SORN if your insurance is to run out
Theres also nothing stopping you declaring SORN anytime you want to declare youre keeping the vehicle off road
This is useful since youre liable for noSORN the instant your tax or insurance runs out so it's best to do it before.
Youre also now allowed to declare SORN if your insurance is to run out
Theres also nothing stopping you declaring SORN anytime you want to declare youre keeping the vehicle off road
This is useful since youre liable for noSORN the instant your tax or insurance runs out so it's best to do it before.
marshalla said:
These are the only sections which describe the circumstances for SORN - in all of them, the licence is invalidated FIRST and the SORN follows immediately afterwards. It does not make provision for SORN to be declared prior to expiry or surrender of the licence.
where does it say that once you declare SORN you must surrender your licence?Edited by saaby93 on Wednesday 14th March 10:08
saaby93 said:
You need the other bit that says what a SORN is
No I don't - the regulations specify WHEN a SORN must be given. Any other SORN is not a legal requirement and is, therefore, an attempt to create a loophole.If you can find something in it which gives another situation when SORN must be given in order to comply with the law, please quote it yourself.
Edited by marshalla on Wednesday 14th March 10:04
marshalla said:
saaby93 said:
You need the other bit that says what a SORN is
No I don't - the regulations specify WHEN a SORN must be given. Any other SORN is not a legal requirement and is, therefore, an attempt to create a loophole.If you can find something in it which gives another situation when SORN must be given in order to comply with the law, please quote it yourself.
For the avoidance of doubt (fat chance!)
There is no explicit provision or requirement for SORN because of expiry of insurance.
The Motor Vehicles Insurance Requirements Regulations 2011 said:
Exceptions to the offence under section 144A
4. For the purposes of section 144B(6)(c) of the 1988 Act (the fifth condition), the registered keeper of the vehicle must, by the relevant time and in relation to that vehicle, have given notification in accordance with regulation 26A(3) of the 2002 Regulations.
The 2002 regulations are cited above. The SORN declaration still relates to licence expiry or surrender. It is the presence of licence without insurance that is the offence and expiry of insurance now requires either new insurance or, by implication from the conditions which require SORN, surrender of licence + SORN. 4. For the purposes of section 144B(6)(c) of the 1988 Act (the fifth condition), the registered keeper of the vehicle must, by the relevant time and in relation to that vehicle, have given notification in accordance with regulation 26A(3) of the 2002 Regulations.
There is no explicit provision or requirement for SORN because of expiry of insurance.
Edited by marshalla on Wednesday 14th March 10:18
Pah.. the words
26A3 is the one that says on surrender of your licence( tax) you need to notify SORN
Although it might be taken as saying you need to 26A3 (surrender your licence), surely it's only asking for the notification in accordance with that i.e. the SORN declaration?
Unless you can point me to it, it doesnt say you must surrender your licence at the time you SORN. There'd be no leeway if they tried to cut it to zero from both directions.
It's like you must have an MOT to Tax your car but you dont need Tax to get an MOT.
26A3 is the one that says on surrender of your licence( tax) you need to notify SORN
Although it might be taken as saying you need to 26A3 (surrender your licence), surely it's only asking for the notification in accordance with that i.e. the SORN declaration?
marshalla said:
For the avoidance of doubt (fat chance!)
There is no explicit provision or requirement for SORN because of expiry of insurance.
Its still saying that you must SORN before ( or at the time) your insurance or licence(Tax) expires or is surrendered?regs said:
Exceptions to the offence under section 144A
4. For the purposes of section 144B(6)(c) of the 1988 Act (the fifth condition), the registered keeper of the vehicle must, by the relevant time and in relation to that vehicle, have given notification in accordance with regulation 26A(3) of the 2002 Regulations.
The 2002 regulations are cited above. The SORN declaration still relates to licence expiry or surrender. It is the presence of licence without insurance that is the offence and expiry of insurance now requires either new insurance or, by implication from the conditions which require SORN, surrender of licence + SORN. 4. For the purposes of section 144B(6)(c) of the 1988 Act (the fifth condition), the registered keeper of the vehicle must, by the relevant time and in relation to that vehicle, have given notification in accordance with regulation 26A(3) of the 2002 Regulations.
There is no explicit provision or requirement for SORN because of expiry of insurance.
Unless you can point me to it, it doesnt say you must surrender your licence at the time you SORN. There'd be no leeway if they tried to cut it to zero from both directions.
It's like you must have an MOT to Tax your car but you dont need Tax to get an MOT.
Edited by saaby93 on Wednesday 14th March 11:15
saaby93 said:
As I think FiF said the other day
Don't drag me into this, I'm confused enough as it is.cptsideways said:
Stupid system thought up only by bloody bureaucrats so they can make jobs. It does not cure the problem they were trying to fix.
That^^^^.I'm currently thinking of buying a vehicle to get back into cheap(ish) motorsport during my imminent retirement. Of the various options I'm considering, one is wholly off road i.e. trailered to from events, and the other serious option would (I think) require a vehicle to be fully road legal.
Due to the nature of use, which would be seasonal and very intermittent, this tax/not tax, insure/not insure, SORN/not SORN and the fact, yes fact, that DVLA are so bloody useless is irrevocably pushing me towards one direction.
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