Porsche 944 engines. Turbo/S2
Discussion
Just pondering something.
I know the 2.5 block and 2.7/3.0 block are different along with the heads, which is one of the decisions to make when planning a 3.0 turbo conversion.
What is the 2.5 944s head and block, is it effectively an s2 head that will fit on a 2.5 block, in other words could it be used as the answer to fit a 16v head to a turbo engine?
Alternatively is there a reasonably priced source of pistons to drop the compression on an s2 engine to allow fitment of a turbo (I'm only interested in discussing engine internals at this stage).
I know the 2.5 block and 2.7/3.0 block are different along with the heads, which is one of the decisions to make when planning a 3.0 turbo conversion.
What is the 2.5 944s head and block, is it effectively an s2 head that will fit on a 2.5 block, in other words could it be used as the answer to fit a 16v head to a turbo engine?
Alternatively is there a reasonably priced source of pistons to drop the compression on an s2 engine to allow fitment of a turbo (I'm only interested in discussing engine internals at this stage).
I thought about building a 3.0 for ages but to do it properly with all the bits to make it really work will probably cost £10k+, personally I'd speak to someone that has actually done it rather than take notice of rehashed internet hearsay, try asking niffty951 on here, he's been there, done that and got the T shirt regarding modded 944 turbo's.
Edited by blade7 on Tuesday 20th March 11:50
Fat Albert said:
There was a similar discussion on the 944 section of the PCGB forum recently, from memory I think the concensus was to use the 2.7 block with the 3.0 head
2.7 head on 3.0 (or 2.7) block, everything else requires welding/machining. Depending on how optimistic you are with boost/costs a standardish 16v turbo is possible but I wouldn't expect 200k from it 
.Edited by blade7 on Tuesday 20th March 12:00
Well the back story to this is after being away from Porsches for some time now (I won't count my brief interlude with a couple of 924S) I have found a cheap local 944s2.
It's leggy as hell but essentially a car that will make me quite happy once I've bottomed it, however I am used to 911s and every "new" car I get I enjoy for a while but quickly end up wishing I still had a 911.
To be blunt I can't afford a 911 at the moment aside from a 3.4 996 like my father has and I know long term it wouldn't work for me.
So I will end up wanting to make the S2 quicker. Decent tyres, refurb brakes as calipers will almost certainly be shot and refresh suspension will be on the list, I will try to lose some weight as well (the car not me, I enjoy pies too much!) mainly losing the back seats as I don't want to compromise comfort and end up with a stripped out car.
So the next step will be how to get more power, given the car has 200k on it the engine will not be in the first flush of youth, if it ends up getting rebuilt it may as well have something interesting done at the same time.
It's leggy as hell but essentially a car that will make me quite happy once I've bottomed it, however I am used to 911s and every "new" car I get I enjoy for a while but quickly end up wishing I still had a 911.
To be blunt I can't afford a 911 at the moment aside from a 3.4 996 like my father has and I know long term it wouldn't work for me.
So I will end up wanting to make the S2 quicker. Decent tyres, refurb brakes as calipers will almost certainly be shot and refresh suspension will be on the list, I will try to lose some weight as well (the car not me, I enjoy pies too much!) mainly losing the back seats as I don't want to compromise comfort and end up with a stripped out car.
So the next step will be how to get more power, given the car has 200k on it the engine will not be in the first flush of youth, if it ends up getting rebuilt it may as well have something interesting done at the same time.
mollytherocker said:
Baz at Hartech is your man. He built a very torquey 944 Turbo with a 3.0 968 block if memory serves?
MTR
968 Turbo is awesome! God knows why anyone would spend that amount of effort on a 968 engine to drop it in a 944?MTR
I know a few people who would pay £20k for a nice 968 converted turbo when a 944 turbo with any spec is hard pushed to attract more than £10k.
It's possible to get circa 350 bhp from a 944 Turbo without too many £££. Is that sufficient?
There is a supercharged 968 for sale also in the PH classifieds if interested...
I haven't answered your questions but given you some other options opposed to spending lots on a converted 944 Turbo :-)
If it is of any interest - after building our very successful 3.0 litre 944 turbo (300bhp and 350lbs ft torque - almost identical performance and p0wer vurves to a 968S) we moved on to build a more tuned up version but decided to use the 2.5 block (as it has deeper cooling channels and two coolant inlet ports to spread the coolant flow). We bored out the old liners parts and made special Nikasil liners (closed deck design) and had pistons made to lower C/R, special head studs etc and it has been modified to fit a 968 head (to enable the variocam to apply negative overlap and stop back filling the cylinders).
We got in a paddle clutch to take the output planned for around 500bhp+.
But since taking the project to being almost ready to build the engine - we have had to divert attention in two other areas. (1) building our 2 Boxster S racers for this years PCGB Championship and gearing up the factory to handle large numbers of 996, 997 and Cayman S engines and cars with engines damaged and in need of repair.
The repairs are growing all the time and we have reorganised things to incorporate 30 stillages (to stack palletts with the gearbox's and auxiliaries on while we repair the engines), increased engine stripping capacity and shelf space, doubled the engine building rooms, invested in extra machinery (as we carry out all the machining and manufacturing in house) and tried to get the whole process streamlined so we can keep costs as reasonable as possible.
Meanwhile with 2 former Champions driving for us this season - we needed to put a lot into the Boxsters - fitting things we are not used to doing and now starting to try and tune in the handling and suspension etc - and just testing takes up a lot of time.
So = frankly - because of the pressures of both these new projects and the fact that the 944 project is so relativley out of date now - we are going to have to simply let that project go to someone else who wants to carry it on with enthusiasm.
I thought that when I get round to advertising it there may well be more interest from the states - but we would be prepared to let all the parts go as they are or finish them off and build the engine for someone over here and in view of the need for moving on to cope with current demand - any reasonable offer would be considered.
The engine could be fitted to a 944 or 968 with stand alone engine management. We had a 944 chassis awaiting the project bit recently scrapped it as it was taking up too much space where we needed to park cars with engines removed - and the 944 3.0 turbo was recently sold to a very happy new owner for the same reason.
That still leaves me with my 924 Carrera GT - to finish off and that's going nowhere! although I did contemplate putting this engine in that - but it is a lovely old thing as it stands and there are very few original ones left with plastic wings, extended bumper, surface mounted windscreen, pin stripe interiora and an LSD gearbox etc (and I have retained the reg BAZ 1981 - the year of its manufacture).
Baz
We got in a paddle clutch to take the output planned for around 500bhp+.
But since taking the project to being almost ready to build the engine - we have had to divert attention in two other areas. (1) building our 2 Boxster S racers for this years PCGB Championship and gearing up the factory to handle large numbers of 996, 997 and Cayman S engines and cars with engines damaged and in need of repair.
The repairs are growing all the time and we have reorganised things to incorporate 30 stillages (to stack palletts with the gearbox's and auxiliaries on while we repair the engines), increased engine stripping capacity and shelf space, doubled the engine building rooms, invested in extra machinery (as we carry out all the machining and manufacturing in house) and tried to get the whole process streamlined so we can keep costs as reasonable as possible.
Meanwhile with 2 former Champions driving for us this season - we needed to put a lot into the Boxsters - fitting things we are not used to doing and now starting to try and tune in the handling and suspension etc - and just testing takes up a lot of time.
So = frankly - because of the pressures of both these new projects and the fact that the 944 project is so relativley out of date now - we are going to have to simply let that project go to someone else who wants to carry it on with enthusiasm.
I thought that when I get round to advertising it there may well be more interest from the states - but we would be prepared to let all the parts go as they are or finish them off and build the engine for someone over here and in view of the need for moving on to cope with current demand - any reasonable offer would be considered.
The engine could be fitted to a 944 or 968 with stand alone engine management. We had a 944 chassis awaiting the project bit recently scrapped it as it was taking up too much space where we needed to park cars with engines removed - and the 944 3.0 turbo was recently sold to a very happy new owner for the same reason.
That still leaves me with my 924 Carrera GT - to finish off and that's going nowhere! although I did contemplate putting this engine in that - but it is a lovely old thing as it stands and there are very few original ones left with plastic wings, extended bumper, surface mounted windscreen, pin stripe interiora and an LSD gearbox etc (and I have retained the reg BAZ 1981 - the year of its manufacture).
Baz
wildoliver said:
Well the back story to this is after being away from Porsches for some time now (I won't count my brief interlude with a couple of 924S) I have found a cheap local 944s2.
It's leggy as hell but essentially a car that will make me quite happy once I've bottomed it, however I am used to 911s and every "new" car I get I enjoy for a while but quickly end up wishing I still had a 911.
To be blunt I can't afford a 911 at the moment aside from a 3.4 996 like my father has and I know long term it wouldn't work for me.
So I will end up wanting to make the S2 quicker. Decent tyres, refurb brakes as calipers will almost certainly be shot and refresh suspension will be on the list, I will try to lose some weight as well (the car not me, I enjoy pies too much!) mainly losing the back seats as I don't want to compromise comfort and end up with a stripped out car.
So the next step will be how to get more power, given the car has 200k on it the engine will not be in the first flush of youth, if it ends up getting rebuilt it may as well have something interesting done at the same time.
Rebuilding these engines is never cheap and to turbocharge them is never as simple as you think. To do it properly, the cheapest option is to use the 2.7 head (with 944 turbo exhaust valves fitted) which bolts onto the S2 block. You will also need lower compression pistons (you can dish the standard ones but some have had issues with the reliability of the S2 pistons), uprated rods or 944 turbo rods, all the 944 turbo bits to make it work - engine/ turbo mount, intake, exhaust manifold, exhaust, wastegate, 944 loom & ECU or standalone (£££), a custom turbo suitable for a 3.0, uprated injectors etc etc. It's leggy as hell but essentially a car that will make me quite happy once I've bottomed it, however I am used to 911s and every "new" car I get I enjoy for a while but quickly end up wishing I still had a 911.
To be blunt I can't afford a 911 at the moment aside from a 3.4 996 like my father has and I know long term it wouldn't work for me.
So I will end up wanting to make the S2 quicker. Decent tyres, refurb brakes as calipers will almost certainly be shot and refresh suspension will be on the list, I will try to lose some weight as well (the car not me, I enjoy pies too much!) mainly losing the back seats as I don't want to compromise comfort and end up with a stripped out car.
So the next step will be how to get more power, given the car has 200k on it the engine will not be in the first flush of youth, if it ends up getting rebuilt it may as well have something interesting done at the same time.
There are other options such as using a thicker head gasket on a 944 S2 engine to lower compression and installing some 944 turbo rods, but you will need to be hand with the welder to make up your own intake and exhaust manifolds and you will still need a good selection of the hardware above. This is a bit of a compromise solution
You could also go for the Hartech method of using all standard parts for a 300hp turbo but you will have traded the nice high compression responsiveness of the S2 for a low compression boosted setup, my personal view is the hp gain is not enough (although it will be very torquey) for the work involved and the standard S2 engine would be more fun to drive.
The engine Baz has will be nice but you will need to be pretty handy at fabrication to make it cost effective.
lots of options for what could be done, there are two things to consider: what do you want to achieve in terms of power/results and what it'll cost including all the hidden costs. On a 200k engine there will be lots of wear items that need replacing internally if you want to run boost to any levels. To turbo an n/a theres a long old list of things to change that don't occur straight away worth thinking through compare a 44 turbo to an s2. Then you have to think through clutch/gearbox mods etc for all the new power
even if you fab it all yourself and use some refurbed kit and fit it all your going to spend min £2.5-3k worth of upgrades/maintenance to make it sensible on the engine hardware, if you can't do the work your prob looking in the region of £6-7k plus final tuning. Unless you've got all your own facilities or are paying top dollar that car would be lucky to be ready this summer.
you could start with something quicker or with more / easier / better tuning potential and enjoy the summer on the road not trying to work out why something that hasn't been done before doesn't work. (lots of this have been done in lots of different ways but each build tends to end up with its own tweaks).
you could look at a boxster/968/928 all giving more power and performance all with some cheaper mods than your looking at.
Away from the negatives above, why not especially if you like projects and building. Most things when broken down are simple enough. if you won't move from a 944 why not do an engine transplant, try a 5.0l v8 there-there are ones with both 928 engines and chevy lumps running around, why not stroke/bore it believe you can get around 3.5l out of a 3.0.
stroked/bored might be quicker cheaper /easier and give some decent results if you do a bit of weight loss as well. good luck either way. you may also be interested to stick it on a RR before you start with 200k and less than perfect maintenance bet thats lost 40hp as it stands, back to stock and the 20hp which is easy enough to find might be enough to make that car feel completely different?
even if you fab it all yourself and use some refurbed kit and fit it all your going to spend min £2.5-3k worth of upgrades/maintenance to make it sensible on the engine hardware, if you can't do the work your prob looking in the region of £6-7k plus final tuning. Unless you've got all your own facilities or are paying top dollar that car would be lucky to be ready this summer.
you could start with something quicker or with more / easier / better tuning potential and enjoy the summer on the road not trying to work out why something that hasn't been done before doesn't work. (lots of this have been done in lots of different ways but each build tends to end up with its own tweaks).
you could look at a boxster/968/928 all giving more power and performance all with some cheaper mods than your looking at.
Away from the negatives above, why not especially if you like projects and building. Most things when broken down are simple enough. if you won't move from a 944 why not do an engine transplant, try a 5.0l v8 there-there are ones with both 928 engines and chevy lumps running around, why not stroke/bore it believe you can get around 3.5l out of a 3.0.
stroked/bored might be quicker cheaper /easier and give some decent results if you do a bit of weight loss as well. good luck either way. you may also be interested to stick it on a RR before you start with 200k and less than perfect maintenance bet thats lost 40hp as it stands, back to stock and the 20hp which is easy enough to find might be enough to make that car feel completely different?
hartech said:
If it is of any interest - after building our very successful 3.0 litre 944 turbo (300bhp and 350lbs ft torque - almost identical performance and p0wer vurves to a 968S) we moved on to build a more tuned up version but decided to use the 2.5 block (as it has deeper cooling channels and two coolant inlet ports to spread the coolant flow). We bored out the old liners parts and made special Nikasil liners (closed deck design) and had pistons made to lower C/R, special head studs etc and it has been modified to fit a 968 head (to enable the variocam to apply negative overlap and stop back filling the cylinders).
We got in a paddle clutch to take the output planned for around 500bhp+.
But since taking the project to being almost ready to build the engine - we have had to divert attention in two other areas. (1) building our 2 Boxster S racers for this years PCGB Championship and gearing up the factory to handle large numbers of 996, 997 and Cayman S engines and cars with engines damaged and in need of repair.
The repairs are growing all the time and we have reorganised things to incorporate 30 stillages (to stack palletts with the gearbox's and auxiliaries on while we repair the engines), increased engine stripping capacity and shelf space, doubled the engine building rooms, invested in extra machinery (as we carry out all the machining and manufacturing in house) and tried to get the whole process streamlined so we can keep costs as reasonable as possible.
Meanwhile with 2 former Champions driving for us this season - we needed to put a lot into the Boxsters - fitting things we are not used to doing and now starting to try and tune in the handling and suspension etc - and just testing takes up a lot of time.
So = frankly - because of the pressures of both these new projects and the fact that the 944 project is so relativley out of date now - we are going to have to simply let that project go to someone else who wants to carry it on with enthusiasm.
I thought that when I get round to advertising it there may well be more interest from the states - but we would be prepared to let all the parts go as they are or finish them off and build the engine for someone over here and in view of the need for moving on to cope with current demand - any reasonable offer would be considered.
The engine could be fitted to a 944 or 968 with stand alone engine management. We had a 944 chassis awaiting the project bit recently scrapped it as it was taking up too much space where we needed to park cars with engines removed - and the 944 3.0 turbo was recently sold to a very happy new owner for the same reason.
That still leaves me with my 924 Carrera GT - to finish off and that's going nowhere! although I did contemplate putting this engine in that - but it is a lovely old thing as it stands and there are very few original ones left with plastic wings, extended bumper, surface mounted windscreen, pin stripe interiora and an LSD gearbox etc (and I have retained the reg BAZ 1981 - the year of its manufacture).
Baz
Must admit this sounds seriously tempting.We got in a paddle clutch to take the output planned for around 500bhp+.
But since taking the project to being almost ready to build the engine - we have had to divert attention in two other areas. (1) building our 2 Boxster S racers for this years PCGB Championship and gearing up the factory to handle large numbers of 996, 997 and Cayman S engines and cars with engines damaged and in need of repair.
The repairs are growing all the time and we have reorganised things to incorporate 30 stillages (to stack palletts with the gearbox's and auxiliaries on while we repair the engines), increased engine stripping capacity and shelf space, doubled the engine building rooms, invested in extra machinery (as we carry out all the machining and manufacturing in house) and tried to get the whole process streamlined so we can keep costs as reasonable as possible.
Meanwhile with 2 former Champions driving for us this season - we needed to put a lot into the Boxsters - fitting things we are not used to doing and now starting to try and tune in the handling and suspension etc - and just testing takes up a lot of time.
So = frankly - because of the pressures of both these new projects and the fact that the 944 project is so relativley out of date now - we are going to have to simply let that project go to someone else who wants to carry it on with enthusiasm.
I thought that when I get round to advertising it there may well be more interest from the states - but we would be prepared to let all the parts go as they are or finish them off and build the engine for someone over here and in view of the need for moving on to cope with current demand - any reasonable offer would be considered.
The engine could be fitted to a 944 or 968 with stand alone engine management. We had a 944 chassis awaiting the project bit recently scrapped it as it was taking up too much space where we needed to park cars with engines removed - and the 944 3.0 turbo was recently sold to a very happy new owner for the same reason.
That still leaves me with my 924 Carrera GT - to finish off and that's going nowhere! although I did contemplate putting this engine in that - but it is a lovely old thing as it stands and there are very few original ones left with plastic wings, extended bumper, surface mounted windscreen, pin stripe interiora and an LSD gearbox etc (and I have retained the reg BAZ 1981 - the year of its manufacture).
Baz
However I suspect it could also be well out of my budget as you will be looking for strong money for it at a guess, that said finishing the development off would be something I would enjoy.
Re. Fabbing manifolds etc. it's not an issue, exhaust manifolds I can get flanges laser cut and then weld them up in the workshop and inlet manifolds I know a decent aluminium welder who makes inlets.
The 924 CGT sounds lovely, I've had a big soft spot for them for most of my life, my first Porsche was a 924 NA, the basic chassis of the 924 series is fantastic.
You can supercharge the S2 3.0. This belongs to a chap who frequents the PCGB 944 forum. Also on here. http://myweb.tiscali.co.uk/944lux/ Very quick, not fully sorted either!
Edited by A9XXC on Thursday 22 March 22:53
Edited by A9XXC on Thursday 22 March 22:58
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