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Streetrod
Original Poster
4,978 posts
75 months
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I am happy to admit that I am bit of a Pagani fan boy, but on the flip side have a huge admiration and respect for those good old boys over at Koenigsegg. But I have always wonder why Koenigsegg have never had as much love as the Pagani crew seem to enjoy, this discussion has done the rounds on here before. But then it occurred to me that where Pagani really wins over Koenigsegg is in its use of the publicity machine and how this has been used to build an aura around the brand. A quick scan of YouTube will furnish you with hours of official, fan and factory visit video taken by various armatures and professionals over the years. Pagani has recently released the "Beginnings" series of videos charting Pagani's journey to this point, you can see the first two of five episodes here: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e3ppIvRl1ZA&fea... Part 1 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dFljduvedg0&fea... Part 2 Also the Huayra story here: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VNuiDEoRgqs&fea...All filmed using very high production values. They also have high profile owners like Harry Metcalf who are more than happy to bang a drum on their behalf. So why don’t Koenigsegg indulge in a similar PR strategy, they have the money, let’s not forget that they are 49% owned by a very wealthy investor and they must have noticed how Pagani have exploited the video world to enhance the brand? Offers of £200 million to buy your company are not made just because you make a cool car; it has to be a lot more than that. I suppose one great disadvantage Koenigsegg have is their location, but Europe is a small place now. Have you ever seen a factory visit video by a member of Joe public, I haven’t? So do koenigsegg need to step up their game, their PR output has always been sporadic at best, or will they always be perceived as the second best hyper hyper car maker in Europe  whether the facts bear that out or not?
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JamieBeeston
8,690 posts
134 months
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Watched the video for a quick check ended up getting rather involved with it and now I want to see the rest.
As you say, great production values!
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matc
4,273 posts
76 months
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IMO there has always been a question of reliability when it comes to Koenigsegg, which started with one of the first ever Gumball movies - the car hadn't been on the market long and the guy using it had to hire a tow-truck and team of mechanics to follow them as it broke down so often!
I think one of the other massive differences is that they develop their cars around achieving headline figures of performance; where-as Pagani have concentrated on styling and quality.
Two very different products that would appeal to two quite different customers.
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Streetrod
Original Poster
4,978 posts
75 months
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I think the idea that Koenigsegg's are unreliable is very old now; in fact most pundits would almost regard them as bullet proof. What I am getting at is how they are perceived by the outside world. Pagani have nurtured an aura of mystique and heightened desirability through the videos and the romance of how the company has come to where it is today, Koenigsegg have in my opinion failed to do this
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BelfastBoy
524 posts
29 months
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Streetrod said: I think the idea that Koenigsegg's are unreliable is very old now; in fact most pundits would almost regard them as bullet proof. What I am getting at is how they are perceived by the outside world. Pagani have nurtured an aura of mystique and heightened desirability through the videos and the romance of how the company has come to where it is today, Koenigsegg have in my opinion failed to do this You've hit the mark here precisely. You and I have debated this matter previously, to the point where I started out as Koenigsegg defender but then ended up changing my mind. This is because Pagani has acquired, to use your picturesque phrase, an 'aura of mystique' that Koenigsegg still lacks. Most of us see supercars, even hypercars, on a fairly regular basis - even I, in N Ireland, recently spotted my first Aventador and MP4-12C, for example. But I've never seen a Zonda in the metal. Plenty of people on this forum have, but even for those lucky people, I'm sure it's still an experience. I'd also love to own a Koenigsegg Agera, but the appeal is different. A Zonda is like this generation's McLaren F1 - obviously not as a performance record setter but more as a desirable, rare, jewel-like accumulating asset. I could imagine owning an Agera but selling it eventually, whereas the Zonda would be a 'keeper' for my (fantasy) collection. Koenigsegg are in a slightly awkward position. I think they're more stable and viable than a lot of the 'here today, gone tomorrow' hypercars (Vector, Cizeta etc), but they don't seem to market themselves that well. Their approach seems to be built around topline performance figures, but when are they ever independently verified? The Agera might be the fastest production car in the world, but where's the proof? Something else to consider, strange as it may seem. Italy = exotic, passionate, dripping with automotive heritage. Cliches, I know, but a Swedish supercar can't have the same emotional response, no matter how good it may be.
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Sexual Chocolate
837 posts
13 months
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BelfastBoy said: Something else to consider, strange as it may seem. Italy = exotic, passionate, dripping with automotive heritage. Cliches, I know, but a Swedish supercar can't have the same emotional response, no matter how good it may be. You hit the nail on the head there. Noble might have the same problem with the M600. It wasn't built in a desirable location
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Streetrod
Original Poster
4,978 posts
75 months
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Sexual Chocolate said: BelfastBoy said: Something else to consider, strange as it may seem. Italy = exotic, passionate, dripping with automotive heritage. Cliches, I know, but a Swedish supercar can't have the same emotional response, no matter how good it may be. You hit the nail on the head there. Noble might have the same problem with the M600. It wasn't built in a desirable location True, but the new look Noble are a very young company. They will never have the cache of being built in Italy but maybe they can build brand awareness by going down a different route. I think one of their main problems is that they do not have a figure head heading up the company. All the great's did or have, think of Colin Chapman, Enzo Ferrari, Horacio Pagani even Ron Dennis for goodness sake. You could always see the personalities of these owners in their cars, I have no idea who owns or runs Noble now
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Streetrod
Original Poster
4,978 posts
75 months
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BelfastBoy said: Streetrod said: I think the idea that Koenigsegg's are unreliable is very old now; in fact most pundits would almost regard them as bullet proof. What I am getting at is how they are perceived by the outside world. Pagani have nurtured an aura of mystique and heightened desirability through the videos and the romance of how the company has come to where it is today, Koenigsegg have in my opinion failed to do this You've hit the mark here precisely. You and I have debated this matter previously, to the point where I started out as Koenigsegg defender but then ended up changing my mind. Glad to to be of help, its all part of the service, an invoice is in the post by the way 
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flatline84
1,060 posts
26 months
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Just looking at them gives you the answer. The pagani looks fantastic, the koeningsegg have a very generic feel - almost to the point of looking - whisper it - like a garage build..
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Vilhelm
401 posts
18 months
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flatline84 said: Just looking at them gives you the answer. The pagani looks fantastic, the koeningsegg have a very generic feel - almost to the point of looking - whisper it - like a garage build.. +1 The 'egg isn't an ugly car by any means, but it does look plainly styled (as plain as a supercar could be...) and to my eyes it lacks the pizazz of Pagani's products. I've always wanted to say pizazz.
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Lambo FirstBlood
592 posts
48 months
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I love this topic and have debated it here before. When I was looking at buying a Pagani, I was invited to the launch of a new product and taken to the factory by a UK dealer. Drove a car, met HP etc. All in all, both the dealer and Pagani did everything that they could and that you would expect them to do.
Contrastly, I have been promised no less than 3 factory visits to Koenigsegg over the last 3 or 4 years and none have materialised. Each time the UK dealer couldn't get their act together or there was a problem of some sort. I even offered to pay for my own travel, if they arranged the factory visit.
Yes Sweden is further than Italy for UK buyers but it's not that far.
There are quite a number of people who have been to Pagani on PH. I know of none that have been to K'egg. IMO, if you are to even get close to understand or appreciate cars at this price level, you have to go and see what it is they do, watch the cars being made, meet the people. Without that, to most people, it just seems like a really expensive alternative to an Aventador for 4 times the price from a company that no one really understands in a country with no provenance for building super cars.
I'm amazed that Christian hasn't cottoned on to this. If he lent Harry Metcalfe an Agera for a couple of months and he fell in love with it, this would change a lot of people's perceptions overnight.
There is so much more he could do. I'm amazed that for a man who is clearly no fool, he has not looked at his nearest, and one could argue only competitor, achieving world domination in this market and not asked a PR agency to help him raise the profile of his cars.
There are some very clever, unique things about K/eggs that IMO are not marketed properly.
There could be a simple explanation for all of this which is that his cars might not be that good........
I do suspect that there is more to it than that though.
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Justices
2,333 posts
33 months
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BelfastBoy said: I think they're more stable and viable than a lot of the 'here today, gone tomorrow' hypercars (Vector, Cizeta etc), but they don't seem to market themselves that well. Oi.. they're alive and well and willing to make a car if you qualify (pay up). www.cizetav16t.com
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Dave Hedgehog
5,320 posts
73 months
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i have often been puzzled how Pagani elevated himself above every other hypercar maker when just about every other start up supercar company has failed to even survive. But you just have to watch the Huayra Story, passion, precision and perfection in obsessive quantities 24 hours to machine the badge! 5 days to machine the top cover for the engine!! Plus he doesn't seam to car about stats or winning group tests (no bringing different cars with different setups) oh lord won't ya buy me a mercedes benz, engine in a Zonda 760 RS 
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steviejasp
1,174 posts
34 months
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I don't consider myself a supercar aficianado by any means but I know a fair bit about them. I knew of most of the Zonda models/variations etc but when a friend of Peter Saywell told me he was buying an Agera R, I hadn't even heard of it! K,egg certainly don't seem to be in the general publics' view much.
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steviejasp
1,174 posts
34 months
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I don't consider myself a supercar aficionado by any means but I know a fair bit about them. I knew of most of the Zonda models/variations etc but when a friend of Peter Saywell told me he was buying an Agera R, I hadn't even heard of it! K,egg certainly don't seem to be in the general publics' view much.
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Office_Monkey
1,618 posts
78 months
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Streetrod said: @ 3:30 - inspiration for the Gallardo?
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stephen300o
12,622 posts
97 months
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steviejasp said: I don't consider myself a supercar aficianado by any means but I know a fair bit about them. I knew of most of the Zonda models/variations etc but when a friend of Peter Saywell told me he was buying an Agera R, I hadn't even heard of it! K,egg certainly don't seem to be in the general publics' view much. I don't think the general public know much about the Pagani either really. Their limited press exposure has been very positive though, while every time the Koenigsegg gets some mainstream attention it has some negative connotation to it, with the unreliable Gumball rally car then the ill handling Topgear lap. Something like Jeremy taking the Agera on one of those 'races'(not breaking down) would do wonders for Koenigsegg to break the hex I feel. Even though it's just an entertainment show it does wonders to make cars an aspirational car for the nearly wealthy twenty somethings.
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BelfastBoy
524 posts
29 months
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Justices said: Oi.. they're alive and well and willing to make a car if you qualify (pay up). www.cizetav16t.comCool, thanks for that. Point I was making was that there's lots of hypercars that appear with no heritage or provenance, promise the most stupendous performance figures, and then never get past the motorshow prototype stage. (For example, as recently as last week, there was something about a Polish supercar on the front page of PH.) Koenigsegg are clearly more of a viable operation than that, but they just can't get the love from either enthusiasts or buyers. I know it hasn't been directly addressed in this particular thread yet, but always crops up elsewhere - 'the Metcalfe effect'. Consistently positive free publicity in an enthusiast production has got to have had a big effect on the perception of the brand (especially how an owner can interact directly with the factory and the founder). People also have long memories, especially when mud sticks even though it shouldn't. Early Koenigseggs seem to have had reliability / build quality problems which have remained in the perception of the brand, even though the cars now are probably fine. Something else to consider, although it may not be so much of a factor. Any track tests of Koenigseggs I've read aren't that complimentary, suggesting it's better on the road. However, even on the road any Koenigsegg seems to require a lot of committment and concentration, with huge power and speed available, RWD only, and peaky power delivery. This is where journalistic / fanboy double-standards always kick in though. A Bugatti Veyron is criticised for being too easy and civilised to drive in the real world, while a McLaren F1 is lauded for the 'pure' experience of being a difficult and demanding driving experience. Koenigsegg can't win here. Their cars are (presumably) great fun to drive in the real world, but they're not easy to drive either. For some, that's the way it should be; for others, it's another stick with which to beat the marque! Is Christian von Koenigsegg bald because he's spent the last decade or so slowly tearing his hair out in frustration? I don't think there's much more he can do to improve the cars, but perhaps as LFB suggests, improvements in customer outreach could help out.
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Streetrod
Original Poster
4,978 posts
75 months
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Lambo FirstBlood said: I love this topic and have debated it here before. When I was looking at buying a Pagani, I was invited to the launch of a new product and taken to the factory by a UK dealer. Drove a car, met HP etc. All in all, both the dealer and Pagani did everything that they could and that you would expect them to do.
Contrastly, I have been promised no less than 3 factory visits to Koenigsegg over the last 3 or 4 years and none have materialised. Each time the UK dealer couldn't get their act together or there was a problem of some sort. I even offered to pay for my own travel, if they arranged the factory visit.
Yes Sweden is further than Italy for UK buyers but it's not that far.
There are quite a number of people who have been to Pagani on PH. I know of none that have been to K'egg. IMO, if you are to even get close to understand or appreciate cars at this price level, you have to go and see what it is they do, watch the cars being made, meet the people. Without that, to most people, it just seems like a really expensive alternative to an Aventador for 4 times the price from a company that no one really understands in a country with no provenance for building super cars.
I'm amazed that Christian hasn't cottoned on to this. If he lent Harry Metcalfe an Agera for a couple of months and he fell in love with it, this would change a lot of people's perceptions overnight.
There is so much more he could do. I'm amazed that for a man who is clearly no fool, he has not looked at his nearest, and one could argue only competitor, achieving world domination in this market and not asked a PR agency to help him raise the profile of his cars.
There are some very clever, unique things about K/eggs that IMO are not marketed properly.
There could be a simple explanation for all of this which is that his cars might not be that good........
I do suspect that there is more to it than that though. LFB as usual has hit the nail on the head and has provided anecdotal evidence to back up my original augment. The intentional and unintentional PR machine at Pagani has now gathered almost perpetual motion. Any car guy visiting Italy will instinctively have the Pagani factory down as a must visit location. 99.99% of them will never be in a position to buy but they will come away with a very positive impression having been welcomed in and these experiences will be passed on. Look at the Pagani factory organised gathering for owners that happens every year in Europe, great cars, great food and great roads to hoon around on which just goes to build that brand loyalty. I have had limited experience with Christian, but from what I have seen he is a great guy. I know a couple of guys that work for him who are also active in the Hotrod world like myself and they again they have nothing but positive things to say. The company are also developing some really cutting edge technologies, but this will all be to no end unless they can get their story out. So drop the Swedish reserve, get your PR guy on the phone to LFB and arrange his factory visit, invite the world in, get owners together, have a semi open door policy and allow the fans to spread the word otherwise be content to be on the team but never a first team pick. PS As I side note I would say that Noble need to adopt a similar policy. Have an open day at the factory and invite everyone in. Potential clients take to one side invite them back and arrange a track and road test. They have a little momentum at the moment with the positive Chris Harris and Top gear reviews, they need to keep that going and build upon it
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Shmee
5,715 posts
82 months
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steviejasp said: I don't consider myself a supercar aficionado by any means but I know a fair bit about them. I knew of most of the Zonda models/variations etc but when a friend of Peter Saywell told me he was buying an Agera R, I hadn't even heard of it! K,egg certainly don't seem to be in the general publics' view much. This is interesting, Saywell doesn't even have an Agera R, just a regular Agera. Proves the point entirely about the public not really knowing about Koenigsegg.
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