M3s vs Z4M vs CSL vs M1
Discussion
Question
So I've driven the e9x M3, 1M and Z4MC back to back and the 1M was quickest, M3 best sound, and Z4 most involving...
Result, z4 is the one to buy (&keep)
I've driven(own) the e36 M3, and it has a slow rack, old suspension, but perfect as a track hack
I've driven the e46 M3, probably the 'quickest' in the real world, with the best compliance of the lot, but too soft on track, too heavy on track compared to to E36 and doesn't feel as fast or exciting as the Z4 in most conditions
The Z4MCis lighter, with a lower driving position and CofG than the E46 M3
Vs the CSL, the reputed best 'M' It has most of the CSL extras
And it is £10k cheaper
Surely it's the best M car for the money??
Debate!
Custard
So I've driven the e9x M3, 1M and Z4MC back to back and the 1M was quickest, M3 best sound, and Z4 most involving...
Result, z4 is the one to buy (&keep)
I've driven(own) the e36 M3, and it has a slow rack, old suspension, but perfect as a track hack
I've driven the e46 M3, probably the 'quickest' in the real world, with the best compliance of the lot, but too soft on track, too heavy on track compared to to E36 and doesn't feel as fast or exciting as the Z4 in most conditions
The Z4MCis lighter, with a lower driving position and CofG than the E46 M3
Vs the CSL, the reputed best 'M' It has most of the CSL extras
And it is £10k cheaper
Surely it's the best M car for the money??
Debate!
Custard
Edited by custardkid on Wednesday 23 May 07:31
Edited by custardkid on Wednesday 23 May 07:32
Edited by custardkid on Thursday 24th May 22:48
custardkid said:
Pugsey said:
M1? or 1M?
Good point... Corrected
So, "quickest". Can you define that? What circumstances - road or track. I'd say a wound up M3 would be quickest in virtually all situations. The 1M is probably 'quickest' in fast a to b road driving mainly as it's turbo grunt is so easily accessed. You'd need to be in EXACTLY the right gear all the time to eak out an advantage in the M3 - which tends not to happen in normal driving. The 1M's instant boom of power also makes it 'feel' faster than an M3.
Seems like I need to get myself a drive in a 1M!
It's a very difficult call between the others. I had my Z4MC for a year and did about 9k miles in it, including a holiday down to Italy in it. Sitting inches in front of the back axle, with the long nose out in front, it felt the most "special" of the lot to me. But not the most comfortable distance cruiser (IMHO) which (again, IMHO) M cars should be capable of. It was also the most twitchy on the limit, although I ain't no driving god.
I could never get comfortable in CSL seats and personally prefer manual to SMG, so whilst I appreciate the CSL and think it's an awesome car, it's just not for me. Without doubt the most focussed of the bunch.
The standard e46 M3 is brilliant, and looks like a performance bargain at today's prices. Perhaps a bit too crashy over bumps for my liking, but largely perfect. Well balanced and very very predictable when "pressing on". Magnificently comfortable to cover huge distances, and they got the styling just right. No doubt too heavy as a proper track car, but ace nevertheless.
And then the current M3 just feels more... grown up, I guess. Much more docile for pootling about in, a bit more understated, a bit heavier etc. But then you wind the V8 up past 5k rpm and beyond and it takes on a whole new character. it's not as focussed and not as raw, but it's bloody marvellous.
I'm now a year into e92 ownership and have no desire to change - which speaks volumes considering my propsensity to get bored and swap cars.
Perhaps if the 1M drops to £30k by this time next year, i'll be tempted away from the e92, but for now I've got my pick of the bunch.
It's a very difficult call between the others. I had my Z4MC for a year and did about 9k miles in it, including a holiday down to Italy in it. Sitting inches in front of the back axle, with the long nose out in front, it felt the most "special" of the lot to me. But not the most comfortable distance cruiser (IMHO) which (again, IMHO) M cars should be capable of. It was also the most twitchy on the limit, although I ain't no driving god.
I could never get comfortable in CSL seats and personally prefer manual to SMG, so whilst I appreciate the CSL and think it's an awesome car, it's just not for me. Without doubt the most focussed of the bunch.
The standard e46 M3 is brilliant, and looks like a performance bargain at today's prices. Perhaps a bit too crashy over bumps for my liking, but largely perfect. Well balanced and very very predictable when "pressing on". Magnificently comfortable to cover huge distances, and they got the styling just right. No doubt too heavy as a proper track car, but ace nevertheless.
And then the current M3 just feels more... grown up, I guess. Much more docile for pootling about in, a bit more understated, a bit heavier etc. But then you wind the V8 up past 5k rpm and beyond and it takes on a whole new character. it's not as focussed and not as raw, but it's bloody marvellous.
I'm now a year into e92 ownership and have no desire to change - which speaks volumes considering my propsensity to get bored and swap cars.
Perhaps if the 1M drops to £30k by this time next year, i'll be tempted away from the e92, but for now I've got my pick of the bunch.
Edited by Gruber on Wednesday 23 May 08:23
Pugsey said:
custardkid said:
Pugsey said:
M1? or 1M?
Good point... Corrected
So, "quickest". Can you define that? What circumstances - road or track. I'd say a wound up M3 would be quickest in virtually all situations. The 1M is probably 'quickest' in fast a to b road driving mainly as it's turbo grunt is so easily accessed. You'd need to be in EXACTLY the right gear all the time to eak out an advantage in the M3 - which tends not to happen in normal driving. The 1M's instant boom of power also makes it 'feel' faster than an M3.
Not completely relevant to original post but a good comparison nonetheless; I had a good run against a 1M at VMAX recently in my M3 CS. Obviously my SMG without launch control doesn't suit the s54 on launch + a bit of traction control interference between 1st and 2nd so she didn't snap through the gears and charge quite like she can but speaking to the 1M driver he was having the same issues as it was really wet. He backed off pretty early into the corner so I came past but then we had a good blast down the straight.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IM2-YhFIZtY
Were going to have another run in the dry next time
hopefully I can persuade him to a rolling start from 20mph. in 1st gear with good traction and everything turned up to maximum the e46 M3 just takes off and I think it would give the 1M a good run for its money They really do shift but I would imagine as Pugsey said a E9x M3 would be quite a bit faster esp in a straight line although may feel slower due to the power delivery.
Edited by leeson660 on Wednesday 23 May 12:32
leeson660 said:
Pugsey said:
custardkid said:
Pugsey said:
M1? or 1M?
Good point... Corrected
So, "quickest". Can you define that? What circumstances - road or track. I'd say a wound up M3 would be quickest in virtually all situations. The 1M is probably 'quickest' in fast a to b road driving mainly as it's turbo grunt is so easily accessed. You'd need to be in EXACTLY the right gear all the time to eak out an advantage in the M3 - which tends not to happen in normal driving. The 1M's instant boom of power also makes it 'feel' faster than an M3.
Not completely relevant to original post but a good comparison nonetheless; I had a good run against a 1M at VMAX recently in my M3 CS. Obviously my SMG without launch control doesn't suit the s54 on launch + a bit of traction control interference between 1st and 2nd so she didn't snap through the gears and charge quite like she can but speaking to the 1M driver he was having the same issues as it was really wet. He backed off pretty early into the corner so I came past but then we had a good blast down the straight.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IM2-YhFIZtY
Were going to have another run in the dry next time
hopefully I can persuade him to a rolling start from 30mph. in 1st gear with good traction and everything turned up to maximum the e46 M3 just explodes and I think it would give the 1M a good run for its money They really do shift but I would imagine as Pugsey said a E9x M3 would be quite a bit faster esp in a straight line although may feel slower due to the power delivery.G
Edited by Pugland53 on Wednesday 23 May 12:28
I can't comment too much on the Z4M as only driven one briefly, and have never driven the 1M. Slippydiff records his experience here, makes for an interesting read. http://www.pistonheads.com/gassing/topic.asp?h=0&a...
But I do have an e46 M3 and have just bought a CSL, so here are my thoughts so far.
The 'normal' e46 M3 is magnificent over British B roads. The ride and damping is absolutely superb, very very composed, just eats up bumps and spits them out and you have to work very hard to get the TC to come on. An average driver (me) can carry so much speed with a lovely exhaust rasp as reward. In this sense it is 'ahead' of the Z4M and the CSl as they are far more skittish and I (no driving God) tend to back off sooner. Or at least it feels that way. The M3 is not a track car though, too comfy for that but is a fantastic road-car.
Now, the person who wants a Z4M probably wants a 'special' car is the sense that it looks good, sounds good, and feels like an old-school sports car. Sat back over the rear wheels looking over a long bonnet in the Gorge du Verdon will probably provide a sweet spot experience that the other cars can't match, and that's nothing to do with speed. So a win there, despite it not being as vocal as the M3.
The CSL is a different beast entirely from the M3. I was expecting a car that was a little bit better in most departments, but one test drive showed that it's more GT3 than Carerra. Everything is sharper, tauter, faster and noisier. Much more dramatic. Just getting in the seat (recaro bucket) and switching it on (no proofing) is exciting and I don't need to write much about the induction roar. Worth the entrance fee alone, it's grin-inducing on another level. I already love this car, it's exciting just seeing it, let alone and driving it and the fact that they are not losing value is a nice bonus. It needs more skill to drive fast (tramlining on braking is marked) but it's the drivers car of the three no question. Wouldn't fancy it as a daily in winter with a headache though, a bit too frantic for that but many do.
The star amongst all of them is the S54 engine. It's a masterpiece.
Ok, V8 owners will talk about the noise and extra power when strung out and 1M owners will rightly talk about the buckets of torque on offer, but the straight six S54 can return >35mpg on the motorway as a cruiser one minute, and then turn into a fire-breather in the CSL once the twisty stuff starts the next.
As a daily I think the CS would be my choice if you could find one, quicker rack makes a difference, although you do pay a premium. And if anyone is after a minter normal one with a sunroof (for the noise !) mine is currently up for sale here http://www.pistonheads.com/sales/3912028.htm
I'll probably get a V8 at some point I reckon, but they need to depreciate a bit more yet.
But I do have an e46 M3 and have just bought a CSL, so here are my thoughts so far.
The 'normal' e46 M3 is magnificent over British B roads. The ride and damping is absolutely superb, very very composed, just eats up bumps and spits them out and you have to work very hard to get the TC to come on. An average driver (me) can carry so much speed with a lovely exhaust rasp as reward. In this sense it is 'ahead' of the Z4M and the CSl as they are far more skittish and I (no driving God) tend to back off sooner. Or at least it feels that way. The M3 is not a track car though, too comfy for that but is a fantastic road-car.
Now, the person who wants a Z4M probably wants a 'special' car is the sense that it looks good, sounds good, and feels like an old-school sports car. Sat back over the rear wheels looking over a long bonnet in the Gorge du Verdon will probably provide a sweet spot experience that the other cars can't match, and that's nothing to do with speed. So a win there, despite it not being as vocal as the M3.
The CSL is a different beast entirely from the M3. I was expecting a car that was a little bit better in most departments, but one test drive showed that it's more GT3 than Carerra. Everything is sharper, tauter, faster and noisier. Much more dramatic. Just getting in the seat (recaro bucket) and switching it on (no proofing) is exciting and I don't need to write much about the induction roar. Worth the entrance fee alone, it's grin-inducing on another level. I already love this car, it's exciting just seeing it, let alone and driving it and the fact that they are not losing value is a nice bonus. It needs more skill to drive fast (tramlining on braking is marked) but it's the drivers car of the three no question. Wouldn't fancy it as a daily in winter with a headache though, a bit too frantic for that but many do.
The star amongst all of them is the S54 engine. It's a masterpiece.
Ok, V8 owners will talk about the noise and extra power when strung out and 1M owners will rightly talk about the buckets of torque on offer, but the straight six S54 can return >35mpg on the motorway as a cruiser one minute, and then turn into a fire-breather in the CSL once the twisty stuff starts the next.
As a daily I think the CS would be my choice if you could find one, quicker rack makes a difference, although you do pay a premium. And if anyone is after a minter normal one with a sunroof (for the noise !) mine is currently up for sale here http://www.pistonheads.com/sales/3912028.htm
I'll probably get a V8 at some point I reckon, but they need to depreciate a bit more yet.
Pugland53 said:
There is another video on YouTube of a 1M vs E46 M3 in the dry. The M3 gets a better start but the 1M still pulls a gap by the end. Also plenty of 1M vs E92 M3 vids, the 1M seems to hold its own until 100+ leptons. Sorry no link, just going into work.
Blimey so they are really very quick then. Only problem is you can never tell whether they have had the magic remap or not.Edited by Pugland53 on Wednesday 23 May 12:28
I drove a Z4MC for 50k miles between 2007 and 2012. I did nigh on 500 laps at the Ring, took it to Geneva in an afternoon when I missed my London City flight at 11am, went to Nice in it for 10 days, John O'Groats and Cape Wrath. It is easily the most special car from your bunch. Ok, the CSL is better to drive, but in the looks department is just another tarted up 3-series.
One thing - the Z4MC is not a daily driver. I used mine as one, but at the time i liked hardcore cars. At present you would have to put a gun to my head to prize the keys of my E61 M5 - i am addicted to comfort. If you need a car, which can manage the daily commute over our crap roads - perhaps a V8 M3 with EDC is the best choice. But you will lose money. A lot of it... If you want fun and zero depreciation potential - a Z4MC or a CSl should be your top choices. The 1M is nice, but it's only going one way in terms of values. Lastly - the E46M3 - the unsung hero. If you can live with the slightly D8UGS image it's beginning to get, then for £10k you cannot go wrong as a compromise, which actually works pretty well on all levels.
Lastly, don't be fooled by the dick measuring thing about ultimate speed. Frankly, there is nowhere around here where you can really stretch their legs. Shortly after buying it, I took my M5 to 172mph while in Germany, where it head butted the limiter with nonchalant ease. Then it dawned on me, that had I done the same in the UK and got caught I would have made the news for sure. Thus, this thing about top end is pretty pointless. Think about looks, sound, involvement, handling and practicality instead.
One thing - the Z4MC is not a daily driver. I used mine as one, but at the time i liked hardcore cars. At present you would have to put a gun to my head to prize the keys of my E61 M5 - i am addicted to comfort. If you need a car, which can manage the daily commute over our crap roads - perhaps a V8 M3 with EDC is the best choice. But you will lose money. A lot of it... If you want fun and zero depreciation potential - a Z4MC or a CSl should be your top choices. The 1M is nice, but it's only going one way in terms of values. Lastly - the E46M3 - the unsung hero. If you can live with the slightly D8UGS image it's beginning to get, then for £10k you cannot go wrong as a compromise, which actually works pretty well on all levels.
Lastly, don't be fooled by the dick measuring thing about ultimate speed. Frankly, there is nowhere around here where you can really stretch their legs. Shortly after buying it, I took my M5 to 172mph while in Germany, where it head butted the limiter with nonchalant ease. Then it dawned on me, that had I done the same in the UK and got caught I would have made the news for sure. Thus, this thing about top end is pretty pointless. Think about looks, sound, involvement, handling and practicality instead.
Cheburator mk2 said:
I drove a Z4MC for 50k miles between 2007 and 2012. I did nigh on 500 laps at the Ring, took it to Geneva in an afternoon when I missed my London City flight at 11am, went to Nice in it for 10 days, John O'Groats and Cape Wrath. It is easily the most special car from your bunch. Ok, the CSL is better to drive, but in the looks department is just another tarted up 3-series.
One thing - the Z4MC is not a daily driver. I used mine as one, but at the time i liked hardcore cars. At present you would have to put a gun to my head to prize the keys of my E61 M5 - i am addicted to comfort. If you need a car, which can manage the daily commute over our crap roads - perhaps a V8 M3 with EDC is the best choice. But you will lose money. A lot of it... If you want fun and zero depreciation potential - a Z4MC or a CSl should be your top choices. The 1M is nice, but it's only going one way in terms of values. Lastly - the E46M3 - the unsung hero. If you can live with the slightly D8UGS image it's beginning to get, then for £10k you cannot go wrong as a compromise, which actually works pretty well on all levels.
Lastly, don't be fooled by the dick measuring thing about ultimate speed. Frankly, there is nowhere around here where you can really stretch their legs. Shortly after buying it, I took my M5 to 172mph while in Germany, where it head butted the limiter with nonchalant ease. Then it dawned on me, that had I done the same in the UK and got caught I would have made the news for sure. Thus, this thing about top end is pretty pointless. Think about looks, sound, involvement, handling and practicality instead.
Completely agree with this, loved my Z4MC but it will break your hips and give you piles. I swapped mine for an M6 cabrio and it was soo much better in certain ways, fantastic poise after the twitchiness of the Z and a great drive. I too was loving the comfort and pootled a lot of the time, so much so it dawned on me that I really didn`t need 500bhp and 14.5mpg in a daily driver. Hence it`s sold and I`m in a Passat CC diesel daily driver. I did have an order in for a BMW 640d but if I`m gonna go sensible why not properly sensible?One thing - the Z4MC is not a daily driver. I used mine as one, but at the time i liked hardcore cars. At present you would have to put a gun to my head to prize the keys of my E61 M5 - i am addicted to comfort. If you need a car, which can manage the daily commute over our crap roads - perhaps a V8 M3 with EDC is the best choice. But you will lose money. A lot of it... If you want fun and zero depreciation potential - a Z4MC or a CSl should be your top choices. The 1M is nice, but it's only going one way in terms of values. Lastly - the E46M3 - the unsung hero. If you can live with the slightly D8UGS image it's beginning to get, then for £10k you cannot go wrong as a compromise, which actually works pretty well on all levels.
Lastly, don't be fooled by the dick measuring thing about ultimate speed. Frankly, there is nowhere around here where you can really stretch their legs. Shortly after buying it, I took my M5 to 172mph while in Germany, where it head butted the limiter with nonchalant ease. Then it dawned on me, that had I done the same in the UK and got caught I would have made the news for sure. Thus, this thing about top end is pretty pointless. Think about looks, sound, involvement, handling and practicality instead.
Leaves more funds for the weekend!
I don`t think it will be too long before I`m back in a Z4MC as a weekend toy, they are a really fun car and who needs hips? I might need to invest in a soft doughnut cushion and some anusol though!
I've had mine for close on 5 years and used it as my daily driver all of that time. I know there are much more comfortable cars but I don't find it a chore to drive it every day. I've taken it to the south of France and back 3 times and did a non stop drive, barring fuel stops and the Eurotunnel, from Barcelona to Glasgow and didn't feel that I was in anything but an accomplished cruiser.
I had my M3 for 2 years before this car and got a bit bored of it after that time. I went straight into the Z4MC after it and just find it more of an involving car hence the reason I've had it so long. It's hard to explain why, it's just a rawer more captivating driving experience.
I had my M3 for 2 years before this car and got a bit bored of it after that time. I went straight into the Z4MC after it and just find it more of an involving car hence the reason I've had it so long. It's hard to explain why, it's just a rawer more captivating driving experience.
yellowcab said:
Well I reckon they are already starting to go back up. Two for sale on here for over £42k and one on Autotrader for over £45k
I think they'll hold/are holding their values well. But going back up?? No way. Not for a few years yet!Edited by yellowcab on Thursday 24th May 20:55
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