Best way to deal with this
Discussion
My brother has recently purchased a car that has some problems. I was wondering what the experts here thing he should so about it.
So far he has returned the car and demanded a refund under the SOGA, he returned the car 2 weeks ago and the garage are refusing to refund him and are insisting that he insures the car as they have parked it on the road and the risk lies with him.
He purchased with cash but paid the deposit by Credit Card. His card company are being very slow to react (7 days to read a fax!)
To save me explaining the full story, here is his blog, I have redacted the name of the garage to avoid name and shame issues here
So far he has returned the car and demanded a refund under the SOGA, he returned the car 2 weeks ago and the garage are refusing to refund him and are insisting that he insures the car as they have parked it on the road and the risk lies with him.
He purchased with cash but paid the deposit by Credit Card. His card company are being very slow to react (7 days to read a fax!)
To save me explaining the full story, here is his blog, I have redacted the name of the garage to avoid name and shame issues here
blog said:
XXXX of XXXX - breach of contract, steering fault , no refund
XXXX of XXXX – XXXX of Brocken-Promises is more like it.
When a main dealer says they are going to fix a steering fault, you tend to believe them. From experience, if that main dealer is XXXX of Brokenhurst, Don’t believe it.
All I wanted was a car I could trust, that would be reliable & cheap to run, that I could keep for a number of years. What I got was a court case, spiralling costs and a lot of experience of using public transport.
If you are planning to buy a car from XXXX Engineering or get any work done on steering, I’d suggest you read on. It may save you a lot of time and expense; it may even save your life.
I test drove a Peugeot 308SW at XXXX of XXXX, a Peugeot dealer in the new forest. The car looked OK, but had a pull to the left, which in my opinion made it unsafe. XXXX told me that it was a simple adjustment to the tracking and that they would resolve it before I collected the car. On that basis I went ahead with the purchase, getting them to write the agreement down.
Before I collected the car, XXXX assured me the fault was resolved on TWO occasions. As soon as I drove the thing, it was apparent that the fault remained.
So, much of my first day with the Peugeot 308 was spent in XXXX’ waiting area while they attempted to resolve the fault. Eventually, they told me they had done this. I asked why it would be any different this time around, bearing in mind that they claimed to have fixed it before. According to XXXX, the reason they gave was “Because the machine had just been recalibrated” and it must have been out of calibration.
This was six days after the test drive, four of those were the Easter weekend and bank holidays. I really have doubts they were telling me the truth – it appears to be unlikely that they had the machine recalibrated in the two working days over this period. According to a qualified vehicle inspector, the calibration should not drift so significantly between services that it would make such a difference to the tracking on a car.
On driving the car away it became clear within a short distance that the pulling was still present, although less than before and the car had now developed a wheel vibration. I telephone XXXX Of XXXX and told them I was rejecting the car.
Initially, XXXX refused to believe that there was anything wrong with the car, but I told them I was rejecting it and they took it away “for inspection.” They then phoned me and told me that they had now decided the fault did remain and asked for another chance to resolve it. They claimed this was due to if having four different brands of tyre on the car. They changed all four tyres.
After a test drive, I told them I was still not accepting the car as in my opinion the fault remains. It has a pull to the left, is overly sensitive to left hand road camber and only ever bump steers to the left. XXXX said they would come and collect the car – they have failed to do this.
Since that time, XXXX have refused to refund the money or collect the car – I’ve now dumped it on their garage forecourt. Admittedly, XXXX have offered me a number of alternative vehicles, all of which have been at a higher cost and in my opinion above market value compared with other cars on the Peugeot used car web site. Everything offered was “just a couple of thousand more” or “another £3000 more”. In every case, I could get a similar spec and age vehicle for about £2000 less from another dealer. In one case I could get a brand new car from a different dealer for little more than XXXX were trying to claim for a one year old used car.
It is now quite clear this is going to go to court and XXXX have now started throwing allegations and changing their story to suit their mood of the day. A number of their “Facts” are completely wrong and they have a number of occurrences out of chronological sequence, possibly because it makes them look less like the guilty party. For example, XXXX are now claiming that they offered me a higher spec 308 of similar age at no extra cost - funny my recollection is that they never mentioned "no extra cost" but I can clearly remember them pointing out on a number of occasions that it was a higher spec and worth more.
So, if you want to get a car, don’t go to XXXX of XXXX – I now believe that the overhead associated with main dealers isn’t worth it – they are just as trustworthy as the back street dealers.
If you purchased a 207SW HDI in April or May, you should be aware that I know they had a damaged one. They told me that one of garage employees had reversed it into something and damaged the driver's door and 'A' post. I test drove it with the damage - it was pretty bad. They later told me they had sold it on. I wonder if they told the buyer about the accident damage. From memory, I think it was dark grey or maybe black. If it's yours, maybe you'd like to comment on your experiences too?
In my opinion XXXX of XXXX have demonstrated they cannot be trusted. I haven’t decided yet whether I think they are incompetent, negligent or dishonest. I’m erring on the side of a combination.
If you do want to visit XXXX, they are located at
XXX Road Garage, XXX Road, XXXX, SO XXX
So, where does this leave me? Car less and employing a solicitor who thinks my chances of winning including legal costs are “very good.”
If you are wondering, I did approach Peugeot UK, but they said there is nothing they can do because it was a second hand purchase and the dealers are not acting as their agent in this case.
On an aside, trading standards said that “they only need a few more complaints against this garage before they would start investigating them.” So, if you have a complaint, make trading standards aware, our cases will help each other.
XXXX of XXXX – XXXX of Brocken-Promises is more like it.
When a main dealer says they are going to fix a steering fault, you tend to believe them. From experience, if that main dealer is XXXX of Brokenhurst, Don’t believe it.
All I wanted was a car I could trust, that would be reliable & cheap to run, that I could keep for a number of years. What I got was a court case, spiralling costs and a lot of experience of using public transport.
If you are planning to buy a car from XXXX Engineering or get any work done on steering, I’d suggest you read on. It may save you a lot of time and expense; it may even save your life.
I test drove a Peugeot 308SW at XXXX of XXXX, a Peugeot dealer in the new forest. The car looked OK, but had a pull to the left, which in my opinion made it unsafe. XXXX told me that it was a simple adjustment to the tracking and that they would resolve it before I collected the car. On that basis I went ahead with the purchase, getting them to write the agreement down.
Before I collected the car, XXXX assured me the fault was resolved on TWO occasions. As soon as I drove the thing, it was apparent that the fault remained.
So, much of my first day with the Peugeot 308 was spent in XXXX’ waiting area while they attempted to resolve the fault. Eventually, they told me they had done this. I asked why it would be any different this time around, bearing in mind that they claimed to have fixed it before. According to XXXX, the reason they gave was “Because the machine had just been recalibrated” and it must have been out of calibration.
This was six days after the test drive, four of those were the Easter weekend and bank holidays. I really have doubts they were telling me the truth – it appears to be unlikely that they had the machine recalibrated in the two working days over this period. According to a qualified vehicle inspector, the calibration should not drift so significantly between services that it would make such a difference to the tracking on a car.
On driving the car away it became clear within a short distance that the pulling was still present, although less than before and the car had now developed a wheel vibration. I telephone XXXX Of XXXX and told them I was rejecting the car.
Initially, XXXX refused to believe that there was anything wrong with the car, but I told them I was rejecting it and they took it away “for inspection.” They then phoned me and told me that they had now decided the fault did remain and asked for another chance to resolve it. They claimed this was due to if having four different brands of tyre on the car. They changed all four tyres.
After a test drive, I told them I was still not accepting the car as in my opinion the fault remains. It has a pull to the left, is overly sensitive to left hand road camber and only ever bump steers to the left. XXXX said they would come and collect the car – they have failed to do this.
Since that time, XXXX have refused to refund the money or collect the car – I’ve now dumped it on their garage forecourt. Admittedly, XXXX have offered me a number of alternative vehicles, all of which have been at a higher cost and in my opinion above market value compared with other cars on the Peugeot used car web site. Everything offered was “just a couple of thousand more” or “another £3000 more”. In every case, I could get a similar spec and age vehicle for about £2000 less from another dealer. In one case I could get a brand new car from a different dealer for little more than XXXX were trying to claim for a one year old used car.
It is now quite clear this is going to go to court and XXXX have now started throwing allegations and changing their story to suit their mood of the day. A number of their “Facts” are completely wrong and they have a number of occurrences out of chronological sequence, possibly because it makes them look less like the guilty party. For example, XXXX are now claiming that they offered me a higher spec 308 of similar age at no extra cost - funny my recollection is that they never mentioned "no extra cost" but I can clearly remember them pointing out on a number of occasions that it was a higher spec and worth more.
So, if you want to get a car, don’t go to XXXX of XXXX – I now believe that the overhead associated with main dealers isn’t worth it – they are just as trustworthy as the back street dealers.
If you purchased a 207SW HDI in April or May, you should be aware that I know they had a damaged one. They told me that one of garage employees had reversed it into something and damaged the driver's door and 'A' post. I test drove it with the damage - it was pretty bad. They later told me they had sold it on. I wonder if they told the buyer about the accident damage. From memory, I think it was dark grey or maybe black. If it's yours, maybe you'd like to comment on your experiences too?
In my opinion XXXX of XXXX have demonstrated they cannot be trusted. I haven’t decided yet whether I think they are incompetent, negligent or dishonest. I’m erring on the side of a combination.
If you do want to visit XXXX, they are located at
XXX Road Garage, XXX Road, XXXX, SO XXX
So, where does this leave me? Car less and employing a solicitor who thinks my chances of winning including legal costs are “very good.”
If you are wondering, I did approach Peugeot UK, but they said there is nothing they can do because it was a second hand purchase and the dealers are not acting as their agent in this case.
On an aside, trading standards said that “they only need a few more complaints against this garage before they would start investigating them.” So, if you have a complaint, make trading standards aware, our cases will help each other.
My first suggestion would be don't buy a French car.............. But, being perhaps a tiny bit more practical.....
He says that they said he could get a higher spec car "which is worth more"... Have they actually offered him a higher spec car at no extra cost? Get that clarified first.
Then, what does he actually want? Has he had the car inspected anywhere else to determine what the fault is?
He says that they said he could get a higher spec car "which is worth more"... Have they actually offered him a higher spec car at no extra cost? Get that clarified first.
Then, what does he actually want? Has he had the car inspected anywhere else to determine what the fault is?
Jasandjules said:
My first suggestion would be don't buy a French car.............. But, being perhaps a tiny bit more practical.....
He says that they said he could get a higher spec car "which is worth more"... Have they actually offered him a higher spec car at no extra cost? Get that clarified first.
Then, what does he actually want? Has he had the car inspected anywhere else to determine what the fault is?
The higher spec car was at additional cost of about £2k.He says that they said he could get a higher spec car "which is worth more"... Have they actually offered him a higher spec car at no extra cost? Get that clarified first.
Then, what does he actually want? Has he had the car inspected anywhere else to determine what the fault is?
He has had the AA look at the car, they agreed it pulls to the left but couldn't determine the cause
"For example, XXXX are now claiming that they offered me a higher spec 308 of similar age at no extra cost - funny my recollection is that they never mentioned "no extra cost" but I can clearly remember them pointing out on a number of occasions that it was a higher spec and worth more."
Advice? Go back and take them up on this offer.
Advice? Go back and take them up on this offer.
JustinP1 said:
"For example, XXXX are now claiming that they offered me a higher spec 308 of similar age at no extra cost - funny my recollection is that they never mentioned "no extra cost" but I can clearly remember them pointing out on a number of occasions that it was a higher spec and worth more."
Advice? Go back and take them up on this offer.
What he said! If you've got that offer in writing, then I'd say it's a done deal. Advice? Go back and take them up on this offer.
The best way to deal with it ?
Camp out outside the dealership. Make use of banners and leaflets detailing the story. Speak to every customer entering the premises. Inform them of your issues.
Dealers and manufacturers do not like anything that could affect their revenue.
I prefer to think of this as simplifying the matter. Courts are a lottery.
I have done this. Got the desired result after about half an hour.
Camp out outside the dealership. Make use of banners and leaflets detailing the story. Speak to every customer entering the premises. Inform them of your issues.
Dealers and manufacturers do not like anything that could affect their revenue.
I prefer to think of this as simplifying the matter. Courts are a lottery.
I have done this. Got the desired result after about half an hour.
Edited by Red 4 on Friday 15th June 21:45
JustinP1 said:
"For example, XXXX are now claiming that they offered me a higher spec 308 of similar age at no extra cost - funny my recollection is that they never mentioned "no extra cost" but I can clearly remember them pointing out on a number of occasions that it was a higher spec and worth more."
Advice? Go back and take them up on this offer.
That offer has never properly materialised, they claim they made it, but have now withdrawn it. My brother says they never made it. They only came up with that after my brother spoke to a lawyerAdvice? Go back and take them up on this offer.
blueg33 said:
JustinP1 said:
"For example, XXXX are now claiming that they offered me a higher spec 308 of similar age at no extra cost - funny my recollection is that they never mentioned "no extra cost" but I can clearly remember them pointing out on a number of occasions that it was a higher spec and worth more."
Advice? Go back and take them up on this offer.
That offer has never properly materialised, they claim they made it, but have now withdrawn it. My brother says they never made it. They only came up with that after my brother spoke to a lawyerAdvice? Go back and take them up on this offer.
My point is - they have offered this *now* in writing.
You go back with a letter saying "You never made me this offer. If you had I would have taken it. That's all I wanted. Show me this car."
Then take it.
They've said what they've said to make out they've been totally reasonable, and your brother has been totally unreasonable. They've probably realised they don't want to go to court - now they know your brother is serious.
Whilst litigation takes place - which will take months, the car will be sat on the road. His money is tied up and he has no car. SOGA is a grey area with second hand cars - and the dealer has demonstrated they are willing to bend the truth. They haven't ignored the problem, they have actually acted, and will tell the court that:
1) They have replaced all four tyres - bettering the car as sold.
2) They have tested the car, and maybe produce computer printouts.
3) They will produce a witness statement from the dealer's engineer (or even a trade friend) to say there is nothing wrong.
4) They will say your brother is now imagining the 'pull' to one side.
5) They will argue that in any case such an issue is not enough to rescind the contract under the SOGA
That leaves your brother providing counter-evidence that the fault is still there.
So, average case scenario, your brother will be tied up in expensive and time consuming litigation, worst case scenario, in 3-4 months time the court feels that he has not proven his case, which is certainly possible, and he ends up paying his own solicitor's costs, the dealers solicitor's costs, and ends up picking his car up from the road. If it is still there...
Whilst there is a viable solution for both parties, your brother would be foolish to risk litigation. Of course the solicitor will tell him there is a 'good chance'. However, to be fair there is a 100% chance he gets paid either way - and the nastier the case gets, the more he gets paid.
SirSamuelOfBuca said:
Change tyres over
Agree - tyre conicity problem making the car 'pull'?Also, can we confirm that the car now has 4 new identical tyres on???
To build on what SirSamualOfBuca says, see if the tyres can be changed left to right on the same axle, or front to rear on the same side, and see if the problem changes. All of 'em, in pairs.
I will in addition ask if it's not something daft like the nearside front brake seizing/ed on? Is the wheel black with dust and was the judder from that axle?
Or it could be some sort of suspension derangement (yeah, it's tracked up - so what
? What about the castor and camber on the nearside front axle?) or even the chassis bent... But try the simple things first .Rather essential questions - how old is the car, what is the mileage, how much did he pay? All rhetorical
of course, but "4 years old, 120k miles and £4k" will mean the dealer is obliged to meet far fewer obligations than if the answers are "2 years old, 10k miles and £10k". Further clarifications
The car now has 4 matching OEM spec new tyres and pulls to the left. If driven on the wrong side of the road or a a carpark it still pulls left.
Car is 18 months old low mileage
Why would my brother be looking for a lame excuse to reject the car? He needs a car, he likes Pugs, he has had no choice but buy another car so has several thousand pounds tied up in the Pug.
If its relevant, my brother is an engineer he has built kit cars he turbocharged an old capri 2.8i engine for one of his kits. He is smart enough to know when something is amiss.
The car now has 4 matching OEM spec new tyres and pulls to the left. If driven on the wrong side of the road or a a carpark it still pulls left.
Car is 18 months old low mileage
Why would my brother be looking for a lame excuse to reject the car? He needs a car, he likes Pugs, he has had no choice but buy another car so has several thousand pounds tied up in the Pug.
If its relevant, my brother is an engineer he has built kit cars he turbocharged an old capri 2.8i engine for one of his kits. He is smart enough to know when something is amiss.
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