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Simpo Two

Original Poster:

60,414 posts

152 months

[news] 
Sunday 1st July 2012 quote quote all
2006 2.7D, 95K miles.

Coming home last week on the dual carriageway I re-engaged cruise control after a roundabout. It accelerated hard as usual for a couple of seconds, then stopped and went into limp home mode. Apart from the turbos being disabled, everything else seemed fine for the remaining 10 miles of the 60 mile journey.

Next morning it was reluctant to start (it normally fires on the second or third turn) and then ran very lumpily, as if a cylinder was out. I immediately rang the local garage and booked it in.

They diagnosed a cracked exhaust, and naturally this was integral with the cat so I needed a new cat as well and because the car has DPFs it needed the expensive cat and the bill to replace was almost £1,000.

I went to collect the car yesterday and immediately noticed it wasn't starting - engine spun merrily but no firing. Garage chap came out and got it going but it still took two goes and a lot of spinning. Drove home; sadly car is no better. After the first mile or so the lumpiness subsides but power is well down - if I try to accelerate with any force, instead of the usual quiet whoosh there's noise like a bus from under the bonnet. And mpg is down from 39 to 27. And before I took it to the garage it started after 2-3 turns; now it needs 15-20. Something is not right.

Obviously it will go back to the garage tomorrow - they found A fault but not THE fault. Any ideas in advance please chaps?

jith

2,120 posts

102 months

[news] 
Sunday 1st July 2012 quote quote all
Simpo Two said:
2006 2.7D, 95K miles.

Coming home last week on the dual carriageway I re-engaged cruise control after a roundabout. It accelerated hard as usual for a couple of seconds, then stopped and went into limp home mode. Apart from the turbos being disabled, everything else seemed fine for the remaining 10 miles of the 60 mile journey.

Next morning it was reluctant to start (it normally fires on the second or third turn) and then ran very lumpily, as if a cylinder was out. I immediately rang the local garage and booked it in.

They diagnosed a cracked exhaust, and naturally this was integral with the cat so I needed a new cat as well and because the car has DPFs it needed the expensive cat and the bill to replace was almost £1,000.

I went to collect the car yesterday and immediately noticed it wasn't starting - engine spun merrily but no firing. Garage chap came out and got it going but it still took two goes and a lot of spinning. Drove home; sadly car is no better. After the first mile or so the lumpiness subsides but power is well down - if I try to accelerate with any force, instead of the usual quiet whoosh there's noise like a bus from under the bonnet. And mpg is down from 39 to 27. And before I took it to the garage it started after 2-3 turns; now it needs 15-20. Something is not right.

Obviously it will go back to the garage tomorrow - they found A fault but not THE fault. Any ideas in advance please chaps?
It is almost impossible to diagnose something like this on a forum, BUT!!

This is the single most common fault with these cars and is almost always one or both of the turbos. The control units for the turbos are unbelievably bolted onto the turbo housings where they are subjected to huge amounts of heat and completely inaccessible. The control units are not available separately; you have to buy the whole turbo. Both turbos are different and you cannot order them in advance, there are numerous subtle versions of them, so you have to strip the car down first to get the serial number off the turbo.

The left hand is slightly easier to remove because it is further back. It is quite simply the worst job on the car, a bloody disgraceful design. I have not found anyone yet who can supply the correct replacements. Jaguar's price 2 months ago for the right hand turbo was around £1800 plus a surcharge on the old unit.

You are clearly looking at a massive bill if it is the turbos. Personally I hate these cars and wouldn't take one in a gift, but of course I have to work on them.

The only other fault that would give the same symptoms but throw up different codes are the EGR valves. They are also a pig to do and are around £250 each.

Good luck old son, you have my sympathies.

J

Simpo Two

Original Poster:

60,414 posts

152 months

[news] 
Sunday 1st July 2012 quote quote all
Hmm. I had noticed that the turbo/s were whistling more loudly than usual over the last few months, mostly when cold. I suppose that is a sign of impending doom...?

ETA: Could they work out the turbo model from the VIN no?

jith

2,120 posts

102 months

[news] 
Monday 2nd July 2012 quote quote all
Simpo Two said:
Hmm. I had noticed that the turbo/s were whistling more loudly than usual over the last few months, mostly when cold. I suppose that is a sign of impending doom...?

ETA: Could they work out the turbo model from the VIN no?
On the last one I did there were 7 different possibilities; the vin number was no help, they had to have the serial number from the turbo.

J

Tame Technician

2,358 posts

91 months

[news] 
Monday 2nd July 2012 quote quote all
Personally , I'd Ignore the Turbo doom and gloom for now. Limp home mode is so often caused by turbo faults you can get sucked in.

Looking at the bigger picture, you have a misfire/rough running + long crank before firing and the car going into limp mode, (turbo wouldnt really cause this) for me that lot sounds like low fuel pressure. Could be an injector leaking (spraying all the time not squirting on and off as it should) or a number of other reasons including a failed/failing high pressure pump (but dont think about that yet they cost as much as a a turbo)

YOU DEFINATELY HAVNT PUT PETROL IN IT HAVE YOU????!!!!??? even a small amount of petrol in a full tank of Diesel messes up the high pressure pump very quickly indeed.

Did the garage that replaced the cat (also the likely reason why the turbos were noiser the last few months) actually read the fault memory, that should say why the car went into limp mode, and is the first port of call for any engine management issues. Before you even open the bonnet or look at the car.

Unless they thought the DPF was blocked, there is no way the cat/exhaust/DPF could cause limp home.
When you take the car back to the garage, ask them to read the fault memory, and print out or write down exectly what is stored put it up on here and I'll try and figure out from that whats up with it.
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Tame Technician

2,358 posts

91 months

[news] 
Monday 2nd July 2012 quote quote all
Simpo Two said:
2006 2.7D, 95K miles.

instead of the usual quiet whoosh there's noise like a bus from under the bonnet.
Sorry john missed this bit.

Noise like a bus, do you mean a loud hissing sound, if so sounds like a boost like, could be a split intercooler or just a hose off.

If by noise like a bus you mean heavy diesel knock, then I stick with what I said before, injector jammed open.

keep us updated on the progress.

TT

jith

2,120 posts

102 months

[news] 
Monday 2nd July 2012 quote quote all
I'm sorry TT, but the turbos going into limp mode gives exactly the symptoms the OP described. As do the EGR valves.

You are correct about needing a proper diagnosis, but I stated that at the start.

Let's see what happens.

J

Simpo Two

Original Poster:

60,414 posts

152 months

[news] 
Monday 2nd July 2012 quote quote all
Tame Technician said:
YOU DEFINATELY HAVNT PUT PETROL IN IT HAVE YOU????!!!!??? even a small amount of petrol in a full tank of Diesel messes up the high pressure pump very quickly indeed.
Last fill was at Tesco Newmarket on 25 June, about... I have just looked at the receipt to find the date; to my horror it seems you are right... yet it went 40+ miles after that without issue so had ruled it out.

The bus noise is a diesel knock, it's not in limp home mode at present.

OK, I'm an offical idiot - what is the best step? I have a local garage that is sound as far as they go but not rocket science, Scole Engineering who are excellent but 50+ miles away, and breakdown insurance.

Damn. Well at least it's my fault not the car's

ETA: Garage who lightened me of £1,000 is going to pump it out for me - 1/3 tank of almost neat petrol I calculate. I will tell them to do it properly, ie use the fuel pump, and to see if it's a double tank. Thanks to Scole Engineering for some telephone help smile

Perhaps one day they will invent an ECU that can adapt to both...?

Edited by Simpo Two on Monday 2nd July 11:24

Tame Technician

2,358 posts

91 months

[news] 
Monday 2nd July 2012 quote quote all
Before you do anything, ring you insurer, check if your fully comp polliciy included accidental damage caused by misfueling, if it does woo hoo, get it recovered to the repairer of there choice (demand and jaguar main dealer - it might not work but worth a try) if your not cover oh dear - sit down.

Oficial fix from jaguar - from memory (audi's is much the same)

You must remove + clean inside tank + flush pipe work.
Replace high pressure pump
Replace all 6 injectors + HP pipes
Renew fuel filter.

This is of course asuming there is no actuall mechnical engine damage such as melted piston crown from the knocking, they are very robust but a long time running on it and knocking is not good.

The reality is, sometimes, just draining and cleaning the tank + a new fuel filter and fill with diesel and they are ok, but I have to say in my experience with modern CR engines, 40 miles running on the wrong fuel may well have killed those expensive fuel system components. We do several a year and 90% of insurers cover it, can be upto £5000 repair on some cars, typically £2000-£3000.

I know from a recent renewal that my insurer doesn't cover this but thats what you get when you choose the cheapest one the meerkat suggests.

If your not covered tell the garage to pump out the tank (clean it if possible), put a new fuel filter on and see how it is. If it still runs funny then the pump and or injectors have been damaged.


Simpo Two

Original Poster:

60,414 posts

152 months

[news] 
Monday 2nd July 2012 quote quote all
Thanks Paul. Unfortuately I didn't read your bit about insurance before trundling it down to the garage again. I explained the position, namely that I had brought a car in that was running very badly and asked them to make it right. They had found a cracked exhaust I didn't know about (on reflection I'd noticed diesel fumes in the cabin sometimes when stationary) - they say they found this by revving it up and saw smoke coming through the engine compartment. They say their tester took it for a run up and down the hill after the exhaust fix and said it was running perfectly (on petrol?!). Hence they had called it 'job done' and I collected the car, £985 lighter.

So I drove another 45 miles thinking that perhaps a fuel jet was blocked - but the fact it wasn't pulling as usual and made the bus sound if I used too much club made me cautious so I didn't overdo it.

My view this morning was that if they had done their job of diagnosis properly they would have found the real problem - the petrol. They say that because it was running fine they had no reason to check this, and say the fault code reader didn't show anything (I suspect they didn't use one). Certainly had they found the fault I wouldn't have driven another 45 miles on petrol, possibly causing damage running into thousands. Both boss and tester were adamant the car was running perfectly; I had to remind them that even when I collected it it took 15-20 turns to start; even the boss had a go. The agreement I thought I had when I left was that they would make it right for no extra charge.

I walked home and then read the reply about insurance. To my surprise I was/am covered! With the prospect of a 'proper' multi-K fix at a dealer piod for by insurance I called the garage in the hope they hadn't started yet. However the work was already done - pump-out and new filter. I went to collect the car and the guy started tapping at his computer - which is not what I expect when it's a free fix. 'You say it's covered by insurance?' he says. Nice effort my man, but when I left here you said you'd fix it for free. 'No I didn't' said the boss. We then have a little chat involving logic, and the guy is not going to win that one. He gets to the point of scrubbing the invoice with a 'Don't come back' angle. Now I'll stand my ground but I'm fair, and the fact it needed a new filter was my fault, so I offer to pay for that (£45). That seems to mellow him a bit so we part with a handshake - because no doubt I'll need him again one day.

The car appears to be running normally; we shall see. If something is still wrong then hopefully I can still book it in at Expensive Dealer and get it properly fixed for just the excess.

Thanks to everyone who replied and helped me get a grasp of the issue and also a few facts to help me reason with the garage. I hope I now have a car that works and although I'll use the garage again, it will be for basic stuff only. I'm disppointed they tried to charge me for the second fix, and for implying that the car was fine when it left so I have must have done something else to it. If you are reading this Mr Garage, I need to know the amount up front, not afterwards when you've led me to believe it will be free. And next time you get a diesel car that runs like crap, sniff the filler cap first, not last.
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