red rose or not
Discussion
kurtsti said:
I've just go my first TVR tuscan 2001 red rose the seller claims how can I verify this it has got LSD . air con and PS can this be done by the VIN number
kurt
Most visual things you can see it by: Red Roses were fitted with AP Racing brakes at the front, 18" Spiders, and the main beams are HID.kurt
Also, if you look at the suspension, I believe, based on colour alone, that the dampers need to be yellow (IIRC it's a Bilstein suspension, different from the standard one)
PascalBuyens said:
Most visual things you can see it by: Red Roses were fitted with AP Racing brakes at the front, 18" Spiders, and the main beams are HID.
Also, if you look at the suspension, I believe, based on colour alone, that the dampers need to be yellow (IIRC it's a Bilstein suspension, different from the standard one)
All Tuscans have AP racing brakes, it's the size and type of discs that varies. RR cars originally had 322mm 2 piece front discs, ie separate bells and rotors, but a lot of these will probably have now been changed to the 322mm single piece drilled discs from the later S. Also, if you look at the suspension, I believe, based on colour alone, that the dampers need to be yellow (IIRC it's a Bilstein suspension, different from the standard one)
I'm not sure about HIDs, I think they were std on S but optional on RR.
There may be Red Rose written on the fuel rail in marker pen and on the ECU case.
Basil Brush said:
All Tuscans have AP racing brakes, it's the size and type of discs that varies. RR cars originally had 322mm 2 piece front discs, ie separate bells and rotors, but a lot of these will probably have now been changed to the 322mm single piece drilled discs from the later S.
Ah, I was told that the RR had bigger calipers as well... Probably just marketing BS...Most probably there will be a sticker with "RedRose" hand written on it on the ECU (like already mentioned before).... no need to mess with any cables or so... you can just stick your head under to footwell and take a look at the box.
And, if the camcover has not been painted, there should be another mark handwritten on it... like with a red marker saying "R.R." or "RedRose".
The brakes itself do not necesarily indicate, that it is a RedRose. Same goes for HID beams....
Also, check the service book. Maybe there is an aditional note somewhere about a RedRose.. even though this is not relly trustworthy.
You could also check the diameter of the exhaust system... it is slightly larger than the standard exhaust.
For climate, check the knobs on the panel, where the fan and windowscontrollers are. Or take a look under the bonnet.
And, if the camcover has not been painted, there should be another mark handwritten on it... like with a red marker saying "R.R." or "RedRose".
The brakes itself do not necesarily indicate, that it is a RedRose. Same goes for HID beams....
Also, check the service book. Maybe there is an aditional note somewhere about a RedRose.. even though this is not relly trustworthy.
You could also check the diameter of the exhaust system... it is slightly larger than the standard exhaust.
For climate, check the knobs on the panel, where the fan and windowscontrollers are. Or take a look under the bonnet.
Edited by votan on Thursday 26th July 15:19
Walford said:
More importantly is it late enough 2001 to have reduced KPI / scrub rad / bump steer/ stay on the road
As a RedRose, it will probably not have the newer modified wishbones/ reduced KPI introduced late 2001. But with the bigger brakes on it, bump steer will already be reduced, compared to the standard Tuscan (the smaller brakes on the standard Tuscan need aftermarket wheel spacers fitted to achieve the same effect).See also http://www.pistonheads.com/gassing/topic.asp?h=0&a...
Edited by votan on Thursday 26th July 17:54
[quote=votan]
As a RedRose, it will probably not have the newer modified wishbones/ reduced KPI introduced late 2001. But with the bigger brakes on it, bump steer will already be reduced, compared to the standard Tuscan (the smaller brakes on the standard Tuscan need aftermarket wheel spacers fitted to achieve the same effect).
See also http://www.pistonheads.com/gassing/topic.asp?h=0&a...
Are you sure?
As a RedRose, it will probably not have the newer modified wishbones/ reduced KPI introduced late 2001. But with the bigger brakes on it, bump steer will already be reduced, compared to the standard Tuscan (the smaller brakes on the standard Tuscan need aftermarket wheel spacers fitted to achieve the same effect).
See also http://www.pistonheads.com/gassing/topic.asp?h=0&a...
Edited by votan on Thursday 26th July 17:54
[/Are you sure?
nrick said:
votan said:
As a RedRose, it will probably not have the newer modified wishbones/ reduced KPI introduced late 2001. But with the bigger brakes on it, bump steer will already be reduced, compared to the standard Tuscan (the smaller brakes on the standard Tuscan need aftermarket wheel spacers fitted to achieve the same effect).
See also http://www.pistonheads.com/gassing/topic.asp?h=0&a...
Are you sure?
That's only if it still has the 2 piece discs fitted and it's not strictly bump steer you are referring to.See also http://www.pistonheads.com/gassing/topic.asp?h=0&a...
Edited by votan on Thursday 26th July 17:54
[/Are you sure?
My "red rose" first registered March 2001 has the newer (longer) wishbones (just had them replaced, and the supplier originally sent the early short ones by mistake), so I guess TVR started using these parts fairly early in 2001.
I've not noticed the words red rose on it anywhere, but to be honest I've not looked that hard... Maybe it isn't one, although the owners manual states output as 380bhp and lists a LSD as being fitted (Non-red rose were supposed to be 360bhp).
Did "red rose" spec simply and quietly become "standard" 4.0lt spec during 2001 once TVR had introduced the 'S'?
I've not noticed the words red rose on it anywhere, but to be honest I've not looked that hard... Maybe it isn't one, although the owners manual states output as 380bhp and lists a LSD as being fitted (Non-red rose were supposed to be 360bhp).
Did "red rose" spec simply and quietly become "standard" 4.0lt spec during 2001 once TVR had introduced the 'S'?
Was it defo 2001 these changes started to be made? Only reason I ask is my car is a late '00 car, and the previous owner told me it was some sort of cross over and was as per 2001 spec? Aside from longer wishbones were there any other updates in '01? It has door buttons next to the radio for example, not sure when this changed.
OK, let me clarify things here.
A Tuscan Red Rose is called that because it was ordered from the factory with the "Red Rose conversion" which was a £4200.00 option. This was then replaced by the S in 2001.
The package comprised:
Engine upgrade of 20bhp (cam timing, bigger injectors, different pistons, different ECU fueling chip, and on early ones steel crank and double valve springs)
18" Wheels (tyres 225/35 F, 255/35 R)
Bigger brakes (with the separate alloy bells on the front, and drilled front and rear discs)
Stiffer suspension.
And that is it. If your car was ordered with this package from the factory and you have proof of this, then you can call it a Red Rose.
Of course TVR being TVR means some standard Tuscans left the factory with some of these parts, either by luck, the fact they were a press car or a dealer demo car, you were a friend of the factory(!) or you asked for an individual item.
Also, many customers with standard cars have had the engine rebuilt to RR spec over time, and refer to their cars now as a Red Rose, when they should be saying it has a RR engine upgrade. This is becoming blurred over time as cars pass through different owners hands.
To clarity some questions on this thread.
All Tuscans have a LSD. Hydratrak was an option. So a standard car may have Hydratrak, and a RR might as well, it depends on what was ordered when new, and what TVR decided to fit on the day!
HID main beam lights were only fitted to some (?)press cars like Pascals until standard on the S.
A/C was an option.
The big bore exhaust only appeared on the S, although one owner on here with a very late factory RR said his had it as well.
Matt from SP performance told me not to bother with the wheel spacers as I still have the 2 piece front discs, saying there would be minimal effect and more importantly the wheel nuts might not have enough thread left to do up properly.
As Basil said earlier, red rose was written on the fuel rail in marker pen and on the ecu case and fueling chip, but these may now have all disapeared.
Also, my engine block is stamped RR 0016P640 1523. This means RR Red Rose, 00 year 2000, 16 the week it was built, P Production, 6 six cylinder, 40 4 litre, 1523 is the engine number.
Does any of this really matter? Well I guess it might in years to come if a factory RR becomes more sought after. If buying one now unless there is proof of the factory order it becomes less of an issue unless you are looking at paying a premium.
Most of the items ie engine, suspension and brakes will have been changed and upgraded by now anyway, so from a driving the car point of view that is what you should look at.
A Tuscan Red Rose is called that because it was ordered from the factory with the "Red Rose conversion" which was a £4200.00 option. This was then replaced by the S in 2001.
The package comprised:
Engine upgrade of 20bhp (cam timing, bigger injectors, different pistons, different ECU fueling chip, and on early ones steel crank and double valve springs)
18" Wheels (tyres 225/35 F, 255/35 R)
Bigger brakes (with the separate alloy bells on the front, and drilled front and rear discs)
Stiffer suspension.
And that is it. If your car was ordered with this package from the factory and you have proof of this, then you can call it a Red Rose.
Of course TVR being TVR means some standard Tuscans left the factory with some of these parts, either by luck, the fact they were a press car or a dealer demo car, you were a friend of the factory(!) or you asked for an individual item.
Also, many customers with standard cars have had the engine rebuilt to RR spec over time, and refer to their cars now as a Red Rose, when they should be saying it has a RR engine upgrade. This is becoming blurred over time as cars pass through different owners hands.
To clarity some questions on this thread.
All Tuscans have a LSD. Hydratrak was an option. So a standard car may have Hydratrak, and a RR might as well, it depends on what was ordered when new, and what TVR decided to fit on the day!
HID main beam lights were only fitted to some (?)press cars like Pascals until standard on the S.
A/C was an option.
The big bore exhaust only appeared on the S, although one owner on here with a very late factory RR said his had it as well.
Matt from SP performance told me not to bother with the wheel spacers as I still have the 2 piece front discs, saying there would be minimal effect and more importantly the wheel nuts might not have enough thread left to do up properly.
As Basil said earlier, red rose was written on the fuel rail in marker pen and on the ecu case and fueling chip, but these may now have all disapeared.
Also, my engine block is stamped RR 0016P640 1523. This means RR Red Rose, 00 year 2000, 16 the week it was built, P Production, 6 six cylinder, 40 4 litre, 1523 is the engine number.
Does any of this really matter? Well I guess it might in years to come if a factory RR becomes more sought after. If buying one now unless there is proof of the factory order it becomes less of an issue unless you are looking at paying a premium.
Most of the items ie engine, suspension and brakes will have been changed and upgraded by now anyway, so from a driving the car point of view that is what you should look at.
Edited by Whitey on Friday 27th July 11:14
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