How special is the Peugeot 405 T16?
Discussion
Having a bit of a fetish for 80s homologation specials, I find myself drooling over the 405 gendarmerie special. 405 Mi16, take a bow son. This is the bees knees as far as PUG 405`s are concerned. Full-time 4WD, a Variable turbo unit and infinite Overboost on demand. Gentlemen, I give you the 405 Ti16
The 4x4 system:
I say to the 4x4 system it is visco diffs all round. This may be technically not quite correct
not quite correct. But I am not a technics guru myself and I thought this is an easy way to make somebody understand. The centre diff is definitely visco with front and rear diffs being similar but not exactly the same systems (Torsen or something).
The overboost function:
This is an amazing system and I think it is obvious what effect it is meant to have. Its function, e.g. flap inside the turbo, is hard to explain. I have got a workshop guide or something like that from Peugeot Deutschland which I send you as an attachment, than you will see how it is meant to work. The description is German but when you look at the drawing and you see the flap before the compression turbine, that should give you a good idea. This flap moves closer to the compression turbine in overboost, such letting more air in and directing it closer to the compression turbine.
Mystery - production numbers:
Even (and not only here) Peugeot’s official figures are contradicting. Some sources say there were 200 odd built, others talk of 2500. The most commonly mentioned and I believe the closest to truth figure is 400 only T16s being built. And for such low production numbers there appear to be many different versions existing as well. Mine e.g. has no sunroof which - so I have been told several times - is unusual as the T16 came with sunroof standard. Apparently this was a small selection of 405 T16 Peugeot played and experimented with (with the WRCar in mind. Some even has a blind tube and kit, designed to fit a dump valve! Others also had slightly upgraded boost figures as standard and a hydraulic suspension made with parts from the Citroen Xantia Activa. That suspension keeps the car and the weight balance always level.
Some claims indicate out off 400 built, 50 turned into French police cars, camouflaged without badges and with cheap cloth seats rather than the standard Alcantara suede ones. Further most 405 T16 stayed close to their production factory in Sochaux on the French/Swiss border. It is said over 100 went to little Switzerland with a similar number staying in France and most of the French ones staying near Sochaux. Even in France there are many Peugeot dealers that have never seen a T16!
As for performance details, well it is unlikely that any 2 T16's are the same. Most, if not all, would have had modifications carried out to improve performance. The base BHP figure appears to be around 196BHP, but other sources suggest this figure to be more like 210BHP. Of course all these figures are going to depend on settings with each car, for example the Garrett Turbo Charger boost settings. The only real way of getting some exact figures would be to have a day on a 'rolling road' to get true BHP figures, but again this would confirm that all the cars are different! 0-60 MPH times appear to be claimed as 7.1 secs , but again this is likely to be the slowest figure around, with 6 seconds being a commonly suggested figure. Top speed, well, the speedo only goes up to 230 km/h, and it appears that this is lower than the top speed achievable. Why the Mi-16 has a speedo that goes higher (240 km/h) is anyone's guess, but this is a little oversight by Peugeot, which apart from that, the T16 must go down as one of Peugeot's finest.
Mystery - performance figures:
This is typical Peugeot! The official Peugeot 405 T16 catalogue reads like this:
“performance data at 1.0bar turbo boost:
power: 196BHP
v-max: 235km/h
0-100km/h: 7.1sec“
This as well is the figures the insurances and registration offices/MOT accepted, at least in Germany. However a few lines further on in the same catalogue say:
“The turbo has an overboost function. That overboost affects the engine as follows:
boost: 1.0bar >1.3bar
power: 196BHP >220BHP
torque: 288NM >318NM”
What is missing is how this affects acceleration and V-max! The context carries on:
“The overboost is activated when the accelerator is on flat-out position and stays activated for 45sec or until the accelerator leaves flat-out position. Once the 45sec are up the overboost can be activated for 45sec again any time through the same procedure.”
In other words (apart from 45sec being a fair bit of time) you can have your 1.3bar boost any time and thus the acceleration and V-max figures given above are a whole lot of b
ks!
Indeed, all 405 T16 owners seem to agree that the 0-100km/h (0-62miles) figure is around 6secs in standard form while V-max stays a mystery as the claimed 235km/h are nowhere near the rev limiter and when you try, you are running out of numbers on the speedo!
Other interesting notes:
- You might find it a bit confusing that in the other letter I state on one side that the T16 is typically Peugeot everything accurate and other 4x4 turbo cars are bulky and heavy in comparison, on the other side the T16 is heavy going in town.... Well, the heavy going is a result of the standard heavy duty clutch and stiff gearbox thanks to 4x4 combined with a huge turbo lag. Other than that it is a typical Peugeot and it is well worth pointing out that the overall weight of the 405 T16 is given as 1340kg, which is surprisingly light for a 4x4 car that size.
- I mentioned above that chip tuning seems to be common practice with the T16. Indeed many people are surprised what boost rates the T16 engine can take without any problems or any major changes. As examples one guy in Denmark got 265BHP on the roller purely through chip tuning; somebody in Holland runs a T16 engine in a 205 Cabrio, chip tuning and using the VAT28 turbo result in reliable 320BHP; meanwhile the best example may be Eccosse’s 306 Sedan, its T16 engine tuned to 350BHP, see their web site. At the same time you find many T16s having covered in the area of 150000km and have never experienced engine problems. As you know, Escort Cosworths would be on their 3rd or 4th head gasket by than if lucky! It really seems the tuning limit for the 405 T16 is how much the transmission can cope with, not the engine!
- Meanwhile, saying the T16 was such a rare car while guys seem to find T16 engines for 205s and the same engine is a base for the WRC engine, it really seems the 405 T16 was never meant to be anything else than a homologation special. Indeed, while the car is so rare, the engines are still in production nowadays! Some are delivered to people like Welter Racing for their Le Mans team and I have read on some web site that the 2000 Beach Buggy World Champion used a T16 engine, etc.. But indeed you can buy T16 engines brand new, used or overhauled at Peugeot! I even have got parts numbers. However, a price of DM5400 (= 1800 UK Pounds) for the overhauled engine may even sound cheap but that is without turbo, intercooler, ECU etc.. The ECU alone is DM2250 (= 750 UK Pounds) but if somebody is prepared to spend $$$$ for a Cosworth conversion for his Pug, he may as well go this route? For a start, the Cosworth engine is a longitudinal engine while about any Peugeot gearbox, even the GTI6 one, fits the T16 engine.
The 4x4 system:
I say to the 4x4 system it is visco diffs all round. This may be technically not quite correct
not quite correct. But I am not a technics guru myself and I thought this is an easy way to make somebody understand. The centre diff is definitely visco with front and rear diffs being similar but not exactly the same systems (Torsen or something).
The overboost function:
This is an amazing system and I think it is obvious what effect it is meant to have. Its function, e.g. flap inside the turbo, is hard to explain. I have got a workshop guide or something like that from Peugeot Deutschland which I send you as an attachment, than you will see how it is meant to work. The description is German but when you look at the drawing and you see the flap before the compression turbine, that should give you a good idea. This flap moves closer to the compression turbine in overboost, such letting more air in and directing it closer to the compression turbine.
Mystery - production numbers:
Even (and not only here) Peugeot’s official figures are contradicting. Some sources say there were 200 odd built, others talk of 2500. The most commonly mentioned and I believe the closest to truth figure is 400 only T16s being built. And for such low production numbers there appear to be many different versions existing as well. Mine e.g. has no sunroof which - so I have been told several times - is unusual as the T16 came with sunroof standard. Apparently this was a small selection of 405 T16 Peugeot played and experimented with (with the WRCar in mind. Some even has a blind tube and kit, designed to fit a dump valve! Others also had slightly upgraded boost figures as standard and a hydraulic suspension made with parts from the Citroen Xantia Activa. That suspension keeps the car and the weight balance always level.
Some claims indicate out off 400 built, 50 turned into French police cars, camouflaged without badges and with cheap cloth seats rather than the standard Alcantara suede ones. Further most 405 T16 stayed close to their production factory in Sochaux on the French/Swiss border. It is said over 100 went to little Switzerland with a similar number staying in France and most of the French ones staying near Sochaux. Even in France there are many Peugeot dealers that have never seen a T16!
As for performance details, well it is unlikely that any 2 T16's are the same. Most, if not all, would have had modifications carried out to improve performance. The base BHP figure appears to be around 196BHP, but other sources suggest this figure to be more like 210BHP. Of course all these figures are going to depend on settings with each car, for example the Garrett Turbo Charger boost settings. The only real way of getting some exact figures would be to have a day on a 'rolling road' to get true BHP figures, but again this would confirm that all the cars are different! 0-60 MPH times appear to be claimed as 7.1 secs , but again this is likely to be the slowest figure around, with 6 seconds being a commonly suggested figure. Top speed, well, the speedo only goes up to 230 km/h, and it appears that this is lower than the top speed achievable. Why the Mi-16 has a speedo that goes higher (240 km/h) is anyone's guess, but this is a little oversight by Peugeot, which apart from that, the T16 must go down as one of Peugeot's finest.
Mystery - performance figures:
This is typical Peugeot! The official Peugeot 405 T16 catalogue reads like this:
“performance data at 1.0bar turbo boost:
power: 196BHP
v-max: 235km/h
0-100km/h: 7.1sec“
This as well is the figures the insurances and registration offices/MOT accepted, at least in Germany. However a few lines further on in the same catalogue say:
“The turbo has an overboost function. That overboost affects the engine as follows:
boost: 1.0bar >1.3bar
power: 196BHP >220BHP
torque: 288NM >318NM”
What is missing is how this affects acceleration and V-max! The context carries on:
“The overboost is activated when the accelerator is on flat-out position and stays activated for 45sec or until the accelerator leaves flat-out position. Once the 45sec are up the overboost can be activated for 45sec again any time through the same procedure.”
In other words (apart from 45sec being a fair bit of time) you can have your 1.3bar boost any time and thus the acceleration and V-max figures given above are a whole lot of b
ks!Indeed, all 405 T16 owners seem to agree that the 0-100km/h (0-62miles) figure is around 6secs in standard form while V-max stays a mystery as the claimed 235km/h are nowhere near the rev limiter and when you try, you are running out of numbers on the speedo!
Other interesting notes:
- You might find it a bit confusing that in the other letter I state on one side that the T16 is typically Peugeot everything accurate and other 4x4 turbo cars are bulky and heavy in comparison, on the other side the T16 is heavy going in town.... Well, the heavy going is a result of the standard heavy duty clutch and stiff gearbox thanks to 4x4 combined with a huge turbo lag. Other than that it is a typical Peugeot and it is well worth pointing out that the overall weight of the 405 T16 is given as 1340kg, which is surprisingly light for a 4x4 car that size.
- I mentioned above that chip tuning seems to be common practice with the T16. Indeed many people are surprised what boost rates the T16 engine can take without any problems or any major changes. As examples one guy in Denmark got 265BHP on the roller purely through chip tuning; somebody in Holland runs a T16 engine in a 205 Cabrio, chip tuning and using the VAT28 turbo result in reliable 320BHP; meanwhile the best example may be Eccosse’s 306 Sedan, its T16 engine tuned to 350BHP, see their web site. At the same time you find many T16s having covered in the area of 150000km and have never experienced engine problems. As you know, Escort Cosworths would be on their 3rd or 4th head gasket by than if lucky! It really seems the tuning limit for the 405 T16 is how much the transmission can cope with, not the engine!
- Meanwhile, saying the T16 was such a rare car while guys seem to find T16 engines for 205s and the same engine is a base for the WRC engine, it really seems the 405 T16 was never meant to be anything else than a homologation special. Indeed, while the car is so rare, the engines are still in production nowadays! Some are delivered to people like Welter Racing for their Le Mans team and I have read on some web site that the 2000 Beach Buggy World Champion used a T16 engine, etc.. But indeed you can buy T16 engines brand new, used or overhauled at Peugeot! I even have got parts numbers. However, a price of DM5400 (= 1800 UK Pounds) for the overhauled engine may even sound cheap but that is without turbo, intercooler, ECU etc.. The ECU alone is DM2250 (= 750 UK Pounds) but if somebody is prepared to spend $$$$ for a Cosworth conversion for his Pug, he may as well go this route? For a start, the Cosworth engine is a longitudinal engine while about any Peugeot gearbox, even the GTI6 one, fits the T16 engine.
Edited by Alnassma on Friday 27th July 10:55
Doesn't do anything for me. If you want French, wouldn't the better-looking R21 Turbo 4x4 give this a run for its money? Or else stick with a Sapphire Cosworth 4x4.
Also you quote Deutsch Mark prices for replacement engines etc. Seeing as that currency ceased to exist on 31 December 2001, I would suggest that things may have changed a bit in the last 10 and a half years!
Also you quote Deutsch Mark prices for replacement engines etc. Seeing as that currency ceased to exist on 31 December 2001, I would suggest that things may have changed a bit in the last 10 and a half years!
LotusOmega375D said:
Doesn't do anything for me. If you want French, wouldn't the better-looking R21 Turbo 4x4 give this a run for its money? Or else stick with a Sapphire Cosworth 4x4.
Also you quote Deutsch Mark prices for replacement engines etc. Seeing as that currency ceased to exist on 31 December 2001, I would suggest that things may have changed a bit in the last 10 and a half years!
This is a true homologation special though. Can the same really be said for the Renault 21?Also you quote Deutsch Mark prices for replacement engines etc. Seeing as that currency ceased to exist on 31 December 2001, I would suggest that things may have changed a bit in the last 10 and a half years!
NateWM said:
Does nothing for me either. I can appreciate it's a rare car, but it's bloody boring to look at. Typical french crap imo.
Gimme a Cosworth any day! Will out-perform a 405 without issue.
Given that the real world performance of these cars are in the 6.0 area stock 0-62 while still accelerating at 140 which is the end of the speedometer Im not so sure..Gimme a Cosworth any day! Will out-perform a 405 without issue.
additionally the engine is bulletproof and can be taken to 400 bhp without issue Im not as convinced.
The only thing to watch out for is the gearbox..
Alnassma said:
At the same time you find many T16s having covered in the area of 150000km and have never experienced engine problems. As you know, Escort Cosworths would be on their 3rd or 4th head gasket by than if lucky!
- remind me not to use your mechanic!What is the parts availability on these like out of interest?
Alnassma said:
I think they look quite good. clean lines and a very nice interior.
The technical aspecs are what deepens the appeal for me though. Closer to the rally car mechanically than alot of the contemporaries
[img]http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/17/3238643es0.jpg/[img]
Could you explain what they share with the rally car?The technical aspecs are what deepens the appeal for me though. Closer to the rally car mechanically than alot of the contemporaries
[img]http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/17/3238643es0.jpg/[img]
Rally car was a 2 door, as well as having a cage and strengthening points.
Engine shared only the block, where as the turbo, internals and almost everything else was changed on the rally car, as well as a lightened and balanced knife edged crank.
Drivetrain was scarcely similiar. Cases for the Gearbox and transfer/diff was shared. Peugeot changed most the internals, most importantly the input/output shafts (The power on the rally cars kept on stripping them) and obviously the clutch and flywheel.
Suspension. Hydragas? Not on the rally car.....
I fail to see what exactly they share, apart from the door handles maybe? The Cosworths, Evo's, and pretty much every other "special" shares just as little....
Edit: 400bhp without issue? No need to change anything? No need to upgrade the headgasket/clutch etc? Doubtful...
Edited by NateWM on Friday 27th July 12:38
NateWM said:
Alnassma said:
I think they look quite good. clean lines and a very nice interior.
The technical aspecs are what deepens the appeal for me though. Closer to the rally car mechanically than alot of the contemporaries
[img]http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/17/3238643es0.jpg/[img]
Could you explain what they share with the rally car?The technical aspecs are what deepens the appeal for me though. Closer to the rally car mechanically than alot of the contemporaries
[img]http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/17/3238643es0.jpg/[img]
Rally car was a 2 door, as well as having a cage and strengthening points.
Engine shared only the block, where as the turbo, internals and almost everything else was changed on the rally car, as well as a lightened and balanced knife edged crank.
Drivetrain was scarcely similiar. Cases for the Gearbox and transfer/diff was shared. Peugeot changed most the internals, most importantly the input/output shafts (The power on the rally cars kept on stripping them) and obviously the clutch and flywheel.
Suspension. Hydragas? Not on the rally car.....
I fail to see what exactly they share, apart from the door handles maybe? The Cosworths, Evo's, and pretty much every other "special" shares just as little....
NiceCupOfTea said:
How did Peugeot go from 80s/90s interesting cars (205 GTi, 309 GTi, 306 GTi, 405Mi16, 405 T16, 106 GTi, 205/306/106 Rallye) to the bland st they knock out now?
Such a massive massive decline in design and desirability. Can't think of a single new Pug I'd want to drive now. t they knock out now?NiceCupOfTea said:
How did Peugeot go from 80s/90s interesting cars (205 GTi, 309 GTi, 306 GTi, 405Mi16, 405 T16, 106 GTi, 205/306/106 Rallye) to the bland st they knock out now?
Indeed. t they knock out now?I had this exact conversation with a mate last night and we could think of 7 pugs that we would be happy to own, the newest was the 306 Rallye/GTI/S16
I don't know why this 405 is getting so much grief, it looks like a quirky alternative to a impreza WRX if you fancy some pretend rally car antics.
What were they even homologated for? They don't even get a entry in Klein's bible of rally cars and there's some seriously obscure stuff in there. Surely it's got nothing to do with the mid-engined 405 T16 successor to the 205 T16? Was it a 4WD touring car like the Audi?
Group A homologation required 5000 examples, so by all accounts it does'nt fit in with that category either, unless it somehow falls under the 500-off evolution ruling (like the RS500).
Group A homologation required 5000 examples, so by all accounts it does'nt fit in with that category either, unless it somehow falls under the 500-off evolution ruling (like the RS500).
LotusOmega375D said:
What were they even homologated for? They don't even get a entry in Klein's bible of rally cars and there's some seriously obscure stuff in there. Surely it's got nothing to do with the mid-engined 405 T16 successor to the 205 T16?
I was under the impression that the 405 T16 competition car was basically a stretched 205 T16, so I've no idea where the Mi16 fits in, other than perhaps being a halo model. Now that was a proper homologation special - I still recall the day I got to sit in a 205 T16 road car, reportedly 1 of 5 in the UK at the time.Gassing Station | General Gassing | Top of Page | What's New | My Stuff