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jimmyslr

Original Poster:

337 posts

157 months

[news] 
Friday 28th September 2012 quote quote all
I've been lurking for a while and am soon getting to the point where I might be making a v12 purchase. Specifically, I have in mind a 550. I have driven a few and also a 575 manual for comparison. The one nagging doubt is around 4 seats so I am off to look at a 612 tomorrow; I tried a Maserati GTS but, sorry Maserati owners, it didn't feel special like a Ferrari. Not a looker the 612 I grant you, but it's growing on me and is looking like serious value now and those extra seats might mean I use it more.

Anyway, that aside, I read the odd post that alludes to horrendous bills. I am more than happy to spend a couple of grand a year for normal stuff, and I know cambelts need doing now and then, but some seem to allude to an 8k bill every 3 years and I don't quite see where that comes from other than in exceptional circumstances given bulletproff engines and gearboxes. Ignore tyres, insurance, fuel, brakes etc, I'm just interested in big mechanical fixes/consumables. Bear in mind I will do only a couple of thousand miles a year.

Any perspective gratefully received. Thanks, James

Edited by jimmyslr on Friday 28th September 21:36

colincolin

34 posts

34 months

[news] 
Friday 28th September 2012 quote quote all
For a kick off, the amount of bullsh&t talked about the cost of ownership could sink a battleship.

Modern Ferrari's, by that I mean < 8 years old are built to very high mechanical standards. Most have 12500 or one year service intervals. I just had a 12500 mile service done on a 612 at a main dealer, the cost was £980, comparable to a 911. Whilst true that some services on V 12's can be costly as a result of major preventative maintenance tasks, 8k is a nonsense. That said, if you drive a F1 gearbox equipped Ferrari like a maniac, you'll pay a heavy price.

On the down side, the interior quality is still nowhere near where it needs to be. Window switches have a tendency to come off in your hand and there will inevitably be issues with trim. I'd imagine if you're out of warranty that could get expensive, but not 8k per year expensive.

PS a pair of 20" rear tyres on a 612 costs circa £800. Mine lasted 14000, or two years.


Cerbieherts

1,041 posts

25 months

[news] 
Friday 28th September 2012 quote quote all
If you have a bit of a dig around online prices aren't too horrendous. Sites like supercarhub.com will give you an idea of costs.

JazzyO

1,115 posts

65 months

[news] 
Saturday 29th September 2012 quote quote all
6 years ago, when contemplating the purchase of a 550, I did a spreadsheet with the running costs using internet info to work it out. After owning it for 5 years, I've been pretty well on the money, actually slightly overestimating the costs. You can do your own maths from these numbers: I drive my car around 7k miles a year. Average consumption is 15mpg for the driving I do. Work out insurance (no idea what you would pay), storage, tyres are in my experience 1.5k for a set of 4 - replace once every 12 - 15k miles, brake pads 400 quid or so every three years. Minor service 1k or less, major service (every 3 years is recommended) 3k. Oil consumption is pretty minimal.

550's are pretty much bombproof if kept in good condition. I have had very few issues in 50,000kms of use. Main things: new ECU (about 1000 quid), clutch pressure group went (2k). The rest regular maintenance.

These cars are not Ford Focus money, but they are cheap for the type of car they are. Nowadays also depreciation free.


Onno

bqf

1,310 posts

55 months

[news] 
Saturday 29th September 2012 quote quote all
The biggest problem you'll have with the 612 is frankly, it's blandness. It doesn't feel epic like a 550 does, it feels like what it is - a 4-seat GT car for long journeys.

I drove the one at the Ferrari Centre in kent and I was put off. I only did 20 miles or so but it felt less exciting than my E55 AMG.
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jimmyslr

Original Poster:

337 posts

157 months

[news] 
Saturday 29th September 2012 quote quote all
Thanks all. I have no issues with fuel, insurance, brake usage, 6,000 or 12,000 services, belts, depreciation etc. They are all a given. It's the unexpected mechanical bits I am most interested in. The 1k ECU or 2k clutch examples are good. That's the sort of thing. I assume if you use a good indie you don't get the "the XXX is worn, so let's replace the whole assembly, and if we're doing the RHS we should do the LHS.... that's 5k sir". I am sure some owners have spent huge bills, but I too have learnt the hard way with my choice of mechanic over years of owning various performance cars and using them in variously extreme manners.

The 612 I was going to look at has been pulled from sale so I will leave that to another day. I agree in principle re the 550 vs 612 point made above, but thought I'd try and go in with an open mind and check it all out in the meatl and on a test drive.

bromers2

1,748 posts

134 months

[news] 
Sunday 30th September 2012 quote quote all
Give John a call at http://www.gtcarslimited.co.uk/, he knows 550's quite well and has a nice mod you'll be interested in smile

GusB

164 posts

43 months

[news] 
Monday 1st October 2012 quote quote all
Jimmy, I have been through the same with regard to the 599 re running costs. If some of the costs that are talked about online were true then the cars would be unusable as the slightest thing seems to result in an £8k - £10k cost when servicing is £1250 annual and c£2000 (inc £1250) every other year (someone who knows better than me should be able to confirm).

From my side I am going to keep a warranty on the car I buy, however having listened to people the main things are to keep everything well maintained and used often...

f1ten

952 posts

37 months

[news] 
Monday 1st October 2012 quote quote all

there are plenty horror stories out there yes, but one should also be aware that £5-8k bills can easily happen even if less frequently than they used to on older models. Simply go into it with your eyes open knowing that whilst it may be unlikely that you will have a big bill out of no where, make no mistake it can happen.

Now having done my scare mongering about Ferrari's, it can happen with alot of metal, knowing my sisters jag xk8 v8 blew up at 30k miles and a near law suit was needed to get Jag to honour a replacement engine or face a bill of £12k for a jag which once it had reached 3 years old, it wasnt worth much more than £28-30k at the time! then there are R231 Sl mercs, Por 996 engines, Noble M12 engines, BMW M3 SMG gearboxes etc... all of these will catch you out with big bills too!

Colossus

285 posts

98 months

[news] 
Monday 1st October 2012 quote quote all
If 4 useable seats are a priority (which they were for me) your choice is very very limited, as I am sure you will know. You are essentially down to a 612, Conti or Maser GT-S, the rest simply don't have seats that you could actually use. For me the Conti was a non starter, just not my thing although very impressive in many ways. I could not get past the looks of the 612 and did not find the interior anything special or particularly well built. I ended up going for the Maser and have been incredibly impressed with it as a package. Am surprised that it did not feel as special as an F-car as I think it looks way better than a 612, has a much better interior, especially if you get one with alcantara inserts and headlining and in something other than default black, and has an amazing soundtrack that is way better than a stock 612 imho. I also suspect that in the real world it is actually no slower than a 612 and will handle as well if not better round the twisty stuff.

True it does not have a Ferrari V12 but neither does it have Ferrari running costs with regular servicing being 2 years or 12,500 miles whichever comes first. I have also taken out a 2 year extended Maserati warranty which is bumper to bumper and cost £3000 which I reckon is good value for the cover provided, the equivalent Ferrari cover is significantly more expensive from previous posts on PH. There is of course a significant allure with a Ferrari, but if it was me I would be buying a 550/575 or 599 to tick the Ferrari V12 box (both of which I would happily take over my Maser), not the 612. I guess it depends where your priorities lie but I would not dismiss the Maser because as an ownership proposition it is one of the true bargains out there.

JazzyO

1,115 posts

65 months

[news] 
Monday 1st October 2012 quote quote all
Colossus said:
True it does not have a Ferrari V12
Well, at least it has a Ferrari V8 (all Maser engines are made at Ferrari). smile


Onno

jimmyslr

Original Poster:

337 posts

157 months

[news] 
Monday 1st October 2012 quote quote all
Colossus said:
If 4 useable seats are a priority (which they were for me) your choice is very very limited, as I am sure you will know. You are essentially down to a 612, Conti or Maser GT-S, the rest simply don't have seats that you could actually use. For me the Conti was a non starter, just not my thing although very impressive in many ways. I could not get past the looks of the 612 and did not find the interior anything special or particularly well built. I ended up going for the Maser and have been incredibly impressed with it as a package. Am surprised that it did not feel as special as an F-car as I think it looks way better than a 612, has a much better interior, especially if you get one with alcantara inserts and headlining and in something other than default black, and has an amazing soundtrack that is way better than a stock 612 imho. I also suspect that in the real world it is actually no slower than a 612 and will handle as well if not better round the twisty stuff.

True it does not have a Ferrari V12 but neither does it have Ferrari running costs with regular servicing being 2 years or 12,500 miles whichever comes first. I have also taken out a 2 year extended Maserati warranty which is bumper to bumper and cost £3000 which I reckon is good value for the cover provided, the equivalent Ferrari cover is significantly more expensive from previous posts on PH. There is of course a significant allure with a Ferrari, but if it was me I would be buying a 550/575 or 599 to tick the Ferrari V12 box (both of which I would happily take over my Maser), not the 612. I guess it depends where your priorities lie but I would not dismiss the Maser because as an ownership proposition it is one of the true bargains out there.
The Maser GTS is a pretty car, I wholly agree. I spent an afternoon at Meridien Modena and drove it back to back with a 550. There was that whole thing of "digital vs analogue", whatever that means, but also the 550 felt (to me) a bit more special and had more of a driver's car feel to it - not very precise I know. I'm also a sucker for a clicky-clacky gate.

It helps to know a bit of background. I'm coming from full-on racing car ownership and am now looking for something the kids are happier in, doesn't require ear protection and even the wife might passenger in.... I have sold my 996 GT3 Cup race car and I'm selling my 993 RS Clubsport. I'm keeping the Caterham racer and my Lancia Evo 1. So, I'm after a serious sports car, but with refinement. I'm not in the pipe/slippers/bling arena yet, so hold the Bentley!

I did start mulling an Aston Vanquich S, with the later manual box, at the weekend. It has that special factor at first glance. I fear it probably has unusable rear seats, but not inpsected one in the metal yet. You are right that it is a narrow market, so perhaps I just stick with a two seat 550 and chop it in if I'm not using it 12 months down the line. I will go see a 612 as I hoped it would perhaps drive like a 550, but with the Maser practicality. I will keep on the quest!

Colossus

285 posts

98 months

[news] 
Monday 1st October 2012 quote quote all
I can understand your motives a little better and coming from a GT3 a Maser is going to feel very compromised, which of course it is, but quite a good compromise. My guess is that a 612 will not give you the edge you are looking for although I completely understand the appeal of a manual box, if the Maser had that option I would have happily ticked it. I also take it that the MM guys took you out in ther MC Shift version and not the full auto, which is a very different drive.

Vanquish with a manual box rather than the very crude F1 system would be a good choice but like you I suspect the rear space is almost useless if your children have legs! My two girls nag me if I haven't got the sport button pressed to open the exhaust valves, much to my wife's annoyance, but without them open it turns into a very wife friendly car.

I know if I had a two seater at this point in my life I would not really get to use it as much as I would want as most weekends tend to involve child/family orientated activities and as such a two seater would get left at home. Maybe your circumstances are different and would allow you to use a 2 seater more in which case I think you would do well to look at the 550/575 and 599 depending on budget but again these are very different cars to you racing Porsches and are very much more of a GT than a sports car. It sounds to me like you might prefer a 430 or 458 although of course no V12, but as Onno says above, you would have a Ferrari V8! Good luck and let us know what you go for.

rubystone

8,266 posts

143 months

[news] 
Monday 1st October 2012 quote quote all
I have always had to own a 4 seater and as the kids have grown up, so legroom becae ever more important (they tired of scrunching up in the back of a 911 for instance).

Having mulled over the 456/612/412 as a (summer) everyday-Ferrari-with-4-seats option, I decided I would buy a classic with 4 seats, hence the 365 GT 2 + 2. This ticked the Ferrari box and meant I could focus on the everyday car as being a little less "special" but still not "pipe and slippers". Like you I kept the Caterham, but compromised by selling the '63 Splitscreen.

And that's why I have a CLK63 (I love wind in the hair motoring too, hence the reason I have a convertible). Plenty of room in the back for 2 kids and 6.2 litres of natasp V8 in the front.

Cerbieherts

1,041 posts

25 months

[news] 
Monday 1st October 2012 quote quote all
JazzyO said:
Well, at least it has a Ferrari V8 (all Maser engines are made at Ferrari). smile


Onno
Not for some time now. When they went over to the wet-sump version of the qp engine they were then, and are still built at Maserati. The only engine assembled at Ferrari for Maserati was that of the 4200 and qpduoselect. Ferrari-built engines in Maserati cars have red valve covers, the mas-built variants are blue in colour..

JazzyO

1,115 posts

65 months

[news] 
Monday 1st October 2012 quote quote all
Cerbieherts said:
Not for some time now. When they went over to the wet-sump version of the qp engine they were then, and are still built at Maserati. The only engine assembled at Ferrari for Maserati was that of the 4200 and qpduoselect. Ferrari-built engines in Maserati cars have red valve covers, the mas-built variants are blue in colour..
I have personally seen Maserati engines with blue covers in the engine assembly section at Maranello in May 2012. Not sure how many are still built there, or which types are built there. But there certainly were some engines being built.


Onno

Cerbieherts

1,041 posts

25 months

[news] 
Monday 1st October 2012 quote quote all
Hmm. Strange. Last time I was on a Maserati factory training course we had a good look around their engine assembly area. I also remember seeing the first wet-sump engines fitted to the qp auto's as factory built...

Colossus

285 posts

98 months

[news] 
Tuesday 2nd October 2012 quote quote all
I must admit that I thought all the engines were still built by Ferrari and delivered to the Maserati factory for installation. That is in essence what our guide told us when we went round the Maserati factory last year, which is less of a manufacturing plant and more of an assembly facility with all major components being delivered by outside suppliers.

DJRC

21,673 posts

120 months

[news] 
Tuesday 2nd October 2012 quote quote all
jimmyslr said:
Colossus said:
If 4 useable seats are a priority (which they were for me) your choice is very very limited, as I am sure you will know. You are essentially down to a 612, Conti or Maser GT-S, the rest simply don't have seats that you could actually use. For me the Conti was a non starter, just not my thing although very impressive in many ways. I could not get past the looks of the 612 and did not find the interior anything special or particularly well built. I ended up going for the Maser and have been incredibly impressed with it as a package. Am surprised that it did not feel as special as an F-car as I think it looks way better than a 612, has a much better interior, especially if you get one with alcantara inserts and headlining and in something other than default black, and has an amazing soundtrack that is way better than a stock 612 imho. I also suspect that in the real world it is actually no slower than a 612 and will handle as well if not better round the twisty stuff.

True it does not have a Ferrari V12 but neither does it have Ferrari running costs with regular servicing being 2 years or 12,500 miles whichever comes first. I have also taken out a 2 year extended Maserati warranty which is bumper to bumper and cost £3000 which I reckon is good value for the cover provided, the equivalent Ferrari cover is significantly more expensive from previous posts on PH. There is of course a significant allure with a Ferrari, but if it was me I would be buying a 550/575 or 599 to tick the Ferrari V12 box (both of which I would happily take over my Maser), not the 612. I guess it depends where your priorities lie but I would not dismiss the Maser because as an ownership proposition it is one of the true bargains out there.
The Maser GTS is a pretty car, I wholly agree. I spent an afternoon at Meridien Modena and drove it back to back with a 550. There was that whole thing of "digital vs analogue", whatever that means, but also the 550 felt (to me) a bit more special and had more of a driver's car feel to it - not very precise I know. I'm also a sucker for a clicky-clacky gate.

It helps to know a bit of background. I'm coming from full-on racing car ownership and am now looking for something the kids are happier in, doesn't require ear protection and even the wife might passenger in.... I have sold my 996 GT3 Cup race car and I'm selling my 993 RS Clubsport. I'm keeping the Caterham racer and my Lancia Evo 1. So, I'm after a serious sports car, but with refinement. I'm not in the pipe/slippers/bling arena yet, so hold the Bentley!

I did start mulling an Aston Vanquich S, with the later manual box, at the weekend. It has that special factor at first glance. I fear it probably has unusable rear seats, but not inpsected one in the metal yet. You are right that it is a narrow market, so perhaps I just stick with a two seat 550 and chop it in if I'm not using it 12 months down the line. I will go see a 612 as I hoped it would perhaps drive like a 550, but with the Maser practicality. I will keep on the quest!
The Integrale has a better interior than the 550, 612 or the Maser! Well it does if you have the full leather Recaros...in tan smile I could sit in mine all day with that gorgeous Momo in front of me, proper yellow on black Veglias...mmmm!

Mario149

4,104 posts

62 months

[news] 
Wednesday 3rd October 2012 quote quote all
JazzyO said:
Nowadays also depreciation free
I'm not sure if you mean that literally, but it probably needs qualification. I would say depreciation free in terms of age, but not mileage. My F355 (which everyone always bangs on about being a good buy for depreciation free motoring) is only depreciation free insomuch as if you wanted to buy one of the same spec and same mileage as mine was 3 years ago but buy it tomorrow, you'd be paying what I paid. However, 15k miles further down the line, from a private sale I would expect to have lost £7k or so from what I paid Rardley for it
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