RE: S tronic secrets
Tuesday 6th November 2012
It's funny how the official line alters on these things once a new variant emerges, but an Audi drivetrain engineer we met on the launch for the facelifted R8 was refreshingly candid about the outgoing R tronic. "You had to learn how to get the best from it, feather the throttle a little on the shifts, otherwise..." he lurches his head forward and back and anybody who has experienced that gearbox will know exactly what he means. "But the S tronic is perfect - you can't get it wrong."
Shorter, heavier but more efficient than R tronicThe seven-speed S tronic gearbox is described as 'totally new', developed in-house by Audi and only for use in the R8. At less than 60cm in length, it is some 16cm shorter than the R tronic robo-manual it replaces. That allows more mass to be kept between the axles - but there is a weight penalty of 25kg if you opt for this transmission over the manual.
New drivetrain puts the R8 back in the fightIt's fast, too. Audi says that the time for a complete shift is 0.23 seconds - that breaks down as 0.11s 'reaction' time and 0.12 shift time. It makes it feel as if acceleration is unbroken and if shifting while still under lateral load, the balance of the car is all but unaffected.
Mid-corner shifts don't upset balanceChatting with an anonymous Audi sales manager it appears the gearbox may even have been a deal breaker in some cases. "There were several prospective purchasers who wouldn't buy a manual but when they tried the R tronic hated it so much it cost the sale," he reveals. "So it was a bit of a compromise: the demand was for auto, but the R tronic wasn't much cop. Now the 'box lives up to customer expectations both initial demand and future residuals will harden for S tronic and push ahead of manual versions."
S tronic secrets
More on the R8's new DSG and why even Audi insiders reckoned the old robo-manual R tronic was a weak spot
Shorter, heavier but more efficient than R tronic
The new box is described as a 'three-shaft layout'. The two clutches are positioned one behind the other and serve two independent sub-transmissions with gears shifted directly as the clutches open and close.
This layout means that you can 'overleap' the intervening gears and go direct from, say, seventh to second without having to shift in sequence.
New drivetrain puts the R8 back in the fight
The numerical advantages are plain to see elsewhere on the spec sheet, too. With seventh effectively an overdrive gear, there are gains in both economy and emissions: according to Audi, the S tronic is 21g/km cleaner, 1.3mpg more efficient, 0.3 seconds faster from 0-100km/h and £2,410 cheaper as an option - £2,900 versus £5,310 - when compared to the R tronic it replaces. In an arena governed by increasingly diminishing returns, those figures aren't to be sniffed at.
So from a performance perspective, it is the model to go for. It will also be the one to go for from a residuals point of view. Audi predicts that 75 per cent of R8 customers globally will go S tronic with the revised range. Interestingly, in the UK, a market traditionally associated with a strong demand for manuals, that figure is expected to be 82 per cent. A marked change to the existing split: a quick scan on Autotrader reveals 93 manual cars for sale and 53 R tronics ... a ratio broadly repeated in the PistonHeads classifieds.
Mid-corner shifts don't upset balance
For some people a double-clutch transmission will never replace the pleasure of pushing pedals and pulling levers as an integral part of the physical process of driving. For those that demand a two-pedal set up, it's good to know that the choice doesn't have to mean a compromise.
Discussion
I always hated the idea of a performance car with an auto gearbox. If it didn't have a manual box I wasn't interested. Simple as that. It's the reason Jaguar is still lost to me. As I was growing up Jag made some pretty cars but all came with the obligatory slush box which neutered performance and made the car feel 'dim-witted'. Best left for tubby old blokes at the golf club.
However, having lived with a DSG/S Tronic box for the last 12 months I have undergone a total conversion. The modern twin clutch box is nothing like the old autos. You can genuinely have fun without feeling like the box is getting in the way. And, when you hit heavy traffic, you slip it into full auto mode and creep along with the flow, saving your left leg pumping a stiff clutch pedal. Marvelous.
I've no doubt this new S Tronic box transforms the R8 and will make it a real world proposition for a lot of new customers. Just a shame I've not the funds to be one of them.
However, having lived with a DSG/S Tronic box for the last 12 months I have undergone a total conversion. The modern twin clutch box is nothing like the old autos. You can genuinely have fun without feeling like the box is getting in the way. And, when you hit heavy traffic, you slip it into full auto mode and creep along with the flow, saving your left leg pumping a stiff clutch pedal. Marvelous.
I've no doubt this new S Tronic box transforms the R8 and will make it a real world proposition for a lot of new customers. Just a shame I've not the funds to be one of them.
I'm still quite fond of the R-Tronic... the fact you had to learn to use it properly meant you still had some involvement in the transmission process and that's a good thing.
I love my manual R8 though. Getting everything working perfectly and smoothly is a sense of achievement that you really don't get with an auto.
I love my manual R8 though. Getting everything working perfectly and smoothly is a sense of achievement that you really don't get with an auto.
Maldini35 said:
I always hated the idea of a performance car with an auto gearbox. If it didn't have a manual box I wasn't interested. Simple as that. It's the reason Jaguar is still lost to me. As I was growing up Jag made some pretty cars but all came with the obligatory slush box which neutered performance and made the car feel 'dim-witted'. Best left for tubby old blokes at the golf club.
Clearly you haven't been in Jaguar product for a very, very long time. Sounds like a tired out anecdote rolled out by a tubby old fella at a golf club. 
Mermaid said:
I expect owners will be rather pissed off, or will be they go and buy the new shiny toy.
Not fussed one tiny bit. I also have no interest in buying the new one until it changes substantially. Im over the moon they havent changed the asthetics, that would do most damage to residuals. I actually like my R-tronic box but theres no way Id opt to use it on track over an S-Tronic equivalent. The S is better, but for everday driving and those not chasing milli second lap times, its fine. Ive lived with mine for three years now and have no interest in changing it.It just has to be a manual box for me, we have the s- tronic box in the TT-S & we don't rate it at all, had an auto in my old x5 & that was dire aswell, in life you get back what you put in so I am happy to work a little harder with a manual box to get the rewards regarding the involvement.
If your over 85 years old & can't be bothered with a clutch then a twin clutch gearbox should do nicely!
If your over 85 years old & can't be bothered with a clutch then a twin clutch gearbox should do nicely!
FWDRacer said:
Maldini35 said:
I always hated the idea of a performance car with an auto gearbox. If it didn't have a manual box I wasn't interested. Simple as that. It's the reason Jaguar is still lost to me. As I was growing up Jag made some pretty cars but all came with the obligatory slush box which neutered performance and made the car feel 'dim-witted'. Best left for tubby old blokes at the golf club.
Clearly you haven't been in Jaguar product for a very, very long time. Sounds like a tired out anecdote rolled out by a tubby old fella at a golf club. When I was a kid Jags were hampered by dull gearboxes and it has put me off the brand - unfairly - ever since.
I haven't driven a new one but I'm sure they are much, much better with the advances of gearbox technology.
Having once written off all auto's I'm now a convert.
- by the way I'm not a tubby golfer, I'm a 'powerfully built', 'goatee wearing' PH'er...
Edited by Maldini35 on Tuesday 6th November 10:51
goron59 said:
I'm still quite fond of the R-Tronic... the fact you had to learn to use it properly meant you still had some involvement in the transmission process and that's a good thing.
I love my manual R8 though. Getting everything working perfectly and smoothly is a sense of achievement that you really don't get with an auto.
I would totally agree. the r tronic in both the Gallardo and the R8 really added to the sense of occaison and 'brutality' of driving a supercar. It was however pretty unreliable for me (had to have mine replaced at 23k kms). The dealer has at least one a week recieving a new box..I love my manual R8 though. Getting everything working perfectly and smoothly is a sense of achievement that you really don't get with an auto.
Without being cynical Audi are bound to say the new DSG is huge improvement. They are not going to say it is worse are they!
Personnally I find them really boring. Great if you like an auto terrible if you like manuals. As the article said needs no driver input for seamless shifts. My wife had a DSG TTS for 2 years. When it was replaced with a TTRS she replaced it with a manual version. She thought the same as me the DSG transmission was boring. You ended up driving it as an auto never using the paddles.
I recently drove a PDK Porsche Turbo S. Again brilliant as an auto but no benifit to drive it on paddles. Great if you want a play station style auto but no manual replacement.
The automated mechanicals such as Ferrari FI and Lamborghini e gear on the other hand are brilliant fun to drive in manual mode (and awful in auto) but as a drivers car who drives that type of car as an auto? I have both a LP560 egear and a 430spider Fi and have never driven either on the auto mode.
To me the automated mechanical is a huge improvement on a manual whereas the DSG is a huge improvement on a slush box auto. As you can see they appeal to different customers at opposite ends of the spectrum.
Personnally I find them really boring. Great if you like an auto terrible if you like manuals. As the article said needs no driver input for seamless shifts. My wife had a DSG TTS for 2 years. When it was replaced with a TTRS she replaced it with a manual version. She thought the same as me the DSG transmission was boring. You ended up driving it as an auto never using the paddles.
I recently drove a PDK Porsche Turbo S. Again brilliant as an auto but no benifit to drive it on paddles. Great if you want a play station style auto but no manual replacement.
The automated mechanicals such as Ferrari FI and Lamborghini e gear on the other hand are brilliant fun to drive in manual mode (and awful in auto) but as a drivers car who drives that type of car as an auto? I have both a LP560 egear and a 430spider Fi and have never driven either on the auto mode.
To me the automated mechanical is a huge improvement on a manual whereas the DSG is a huge improvement on a slush box auto. As you can see they appeal to different customers at opposite ends of the spectrum.
martisracing said:
I recently drove a PDK Porsche Turbo S. Again brilliant as an auto but no benifit to drive it on paddles. Great if you want a play station style auto but no manual replacement.
What a very odd post. Obviously an auto will never be a replacement for a manual - they are two different things. And modern autos are so good the only real purpose of the paddles is to make preparatory downshifts. Hence most default back to auto if the paddles are unused for, say, 15 seconds.The real question here is whether VW and Porsche are going different directions with this technology or whether their transmissions are actually converging.
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