Autocar's lament on the 996 Turbo

[Vroomer]

Interesting article in Autocar today (p25) about what makes a classic.

Steve Sutcliffe ruminates on why the 'unusable' 964 RS is now 'worth more than the Crown Jewels' while the 'incredible' 996 Turbo can now be had for 'peanuts' (there are seven under £20k on Autotrader at the moment).

In this light, he confesses he has no idea how to spot future classics.

[mollytherocker]

Theres at least 2 reasons for the 964RS being the value it is;

1 - A real, exciting, demanding and rewarding driving challenge
2 - Rarity

[Soovy]

mollytherocker said:

Theres at least 2 reasons for the 964RS being the value it is;

1 - A real, exciting, demanding and rewarding driving challenge
2 - Rarity

3. The Emperor's new clothes.

[Mousem40]

He's a bit dim then isn't he? Since when has useable supercar ever been correlated with increasing values? In fact the very opposite is more likely to be true.

[Great Pretender]

Supply & Demand.

What's so hard to grasp? Or is it a slow news day?

[Vroomer]

Great Pretender said:

Supply & Demand.

That's obvious!

His question runs deeper than that: Why is the demand there (or not)?

[uktrailmonster]

Great Pretender said:

Supply & Demand.

What's so hard to grasp? Or is it a slow news day?

The supply side is clearly in favour of the 964RS, but I think he was probably questioning why the demand for the 964RS is suddenly so high. It wasn't only a few years ago when the supply was virtually the same. The car has gained cult status in recent years, but the reasons for this are not clearcut. Yes it is obviously a raw air-cooled 911 in low supply, but so it was for the last 20 odd years and yet nobody would pay big money for them until the recent price bubble. The 996TT will probably become a classic in its own right one day, just not today and probably not tomorrow either. Also a totally different sort of car to drive.

[900T-R]

The 996 Turbo is only 'incredible' out of context. In modern UK traffic it will probably be erm, not very exciting unless you endeavour to risk your license. For having fun in 2012 conditions, the 964 RS might just be the more relevant car (even if it's probably too stiff for UK roads; it's more about the principle).

I feel the proper classics of the near future will be:

• the cars that are eschewing outright pace and grip for feel and interactivity at halfway sane speeds and

• are sustainable long-term ownership prospects with regards to cost & technology .

Edited by 900T-R on Wednesday 7th November 15:06

[monthefish]

Soovy said:

mollytherocker said:

Theres at least 2 reasons for the 964RS being the value it is;

1 - A real, exciting, demanding and rewarding driving challenge
2 - Rarity

3. The Emperor's new clothes.

Didn't the vast majority of motoring hacks at the time of its release hate the 964RS?

[jackal]

Vroomer said:

Interesting article in Autocar today (p25) about what makes a classic.

Steve Sutcliffe ruminates on why the 'unusable' 964 RS is now 'worth more than the Crown Jewels' while the 'incredible' 996 Turbo can now be had for 'peanuts' (there are seven under £20k on Autotrader at the moment).

In this light, he confesses he has no idea how to spot future classics.

It all depends on how many sherbots the car has attained in its life time.

Something like a 996RS or a Challenge Stradale has amassed a gand total of around 58 sherbots over the years so is a guaranteed classic. Almost everything else though from the modern age, including every single water cooled porsche and almost every ferrari too, has a very low sherbot count of only 2 or 3 so they will continue to lose money and will one day be worth no more than a basic ford focus. More interestingly, Aston Martins have almost zero sherbots. In fact I understand that a DB9 actually achieved half a sherbot once and it made front page news inside Autocar. You will note too that the turnip-picking lotus has a propensity to earn a few sherbots but then lose them very rapidly in the space of just a few hours. I think the Evora is currently into minus figure sherbots ... in fact if you own one you actually still don't own it because its depreciating so fast and by the time you come to sell it you have to buy it all over again just to get out of it.

[Vroomer]

monthefish said:

Didn't the vast majority of motoring hacks at the time of its release hate the 964RS?

That is what he is saying.

[kayc]

uktrailmonster said:

The supply side is clearly in favour of the 964RS, but I think he was probably questioning why the demand for the 964RS is suddenly so high. It wasn't only a few years ago when the supply was virtually the same. The car has gained cult status in recent years, but the reasons for this are not clearcut. Yes it is obviously a raw air-cooled 911 in low supply, but so it was for the last 20 odd years and yet nobody would pay big money for them until the recent price bubble. The 996TT will probably become a classic in its own right one day, just not today and probably not tomorrow either. Also a totally different sort of car to drive.

Its because there is nowhere else to put your money and the Chinese are buying them ..there is a lot of demand over there that didnt exist even 10 years ago and the buyers appreciate the likes of a hand built uncompromised car like an air-cooled Porsche(especially a rare one) that will never be produced at that level again ..imo the rare water-cooled cars will do the same too..996gt2/996 gt3 rs will be sought after within next 5 years as Porsche move further away from hardcore cars to creature comforts that not everyone wants.

[Vroomer]

jackal said:

It all depends on how many sherbots the car has attained in its life time.

Sherbot?

[seawise]

monthefish said:

Didn't the vast majority of motoring hacks at the time of its release hate the 964RS?

the harsh reality is that car journo's are not especially well paid and as such tend to view car purchases as sole vehicle acquistions. ie they can't grasp the concept that many buyers of such cars have several to choose from every day, and whilst the 996 turbo is a lovely 'all rounder', it's compromised as a result. the 964 RS is 'focused' in it's role, a road/track 911 and as a result quite rare and highly valued.

[Koln-RS]

Soovy said:

mollytherocker said:

Theres at least 2 reasons for the 964RS being the value it is;
1 - A real, exciting, demanding and rewarding driving challenge
2 - Rarity

3. The Emperor's new clothes.

Probably. Enough people talked up the kudos

[900T-R]

seawise said:

the harsh reality is that car journo's are not especially well paid and as such tend to view car purchases as sole vehicle acquistions. ie they can't grasp the concept that many buyers of such cars have several to choose from every day, and whilst the 996 turbo is a lovely 'all rounder', it's compromised as a result. the 964 RS is 'focused' in it's role, a road/track 911 and as a result quite rare and highly valued.

Also priorities have changed in motoring journalism since the early 1990s - where surefootedness ang sheer ground-covering ability were paramount back then, with an ever diminishing window of opportunity for even experienced and cautious drivers to exploit such ability and still keep their license, and cars getting ever more capable as a whole all the same the focus has shifted more to things like feel, interactivity, sense of occasion...

[seawise]

900T-R said:

Also priorities have changed in motoring journalism since the early 1990s - where surefootedness ang sheer ground-covering ability were paramount back then, with an ever diminishing window of opportunity for even experienced and cautious drivers to exploit such ability and still keep their license, and cars getting ever more capable as a whole all the same the focus has shifted more to things like feel, interactivity, sense of occasion...

i agree, and that supports the arguement that the 964 RS is a great, whereas the 996 Turbo is yesterdays fish and chip wrapper/newspaper compared to the 997 turbo, 991 turbo etc etc

[monthefish]

seawise said:

the 997 turbo,

Eh?

I'm confused at the distinction between the 996 turbo and 997 turbo in this context - can you explain?

[uktrailmonster]

seawise said:

monthefish said:

Didn't the vast majority of motoring hacks at the time of its release hate the 964RS?

the harsh reality is that car journo's are not especially well paid and as such tend to view car purchases as sole vehicle acquistions. ie they can't grasp the concept that many buyers of such cars have several to choose from every day, and whilst the 996 turbo is a lovely 'all rounder', it's compromised as a result. the 964 RS is 'focused' in it's role, a road/track 911 and as a result quite rare and highly valued.

I guess if you interpret 'focused' for unnecessarily harsh ride. Having owned a 964RS long term and read all the press reviews of the time I would tend to agree with their 'flawed gem' type appraisals. The factory damper settings were appalling if we're being honest about it. But it was a fun car overall and surprisingly more exciting than a standard 964. The only real compromise with the 996 Turbo is that it's a bit too comfy and easy to drive fast. Is that really a compromise or just years of engineering development? I suppose a GT3 RS is really the modern day equivalent of a 964 RS as a more focused track oriented car. I'd say a GT3 RS is more focused in this respect in terms of its differentiation to a standard C2.

[seawise]

monthefish said:

Eh?

I'm confused at the distinction between the 996 turbo and 997 turbo in this context - can you explain?

it seems obvious to me, the 997 turbo is the successor to the 996 turbo, and the 991 turbo will move the game on from that - whereas the 964 RS was a much more focused car in it's narrow remit, and Porsche don't build cars this focused anymore. therefore it will be a more collectable classic. Porsche now prefer to build cars to accomodate the middle ground. in my humble opinion of course.