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cptsideways

10,482 posts

132 months

[news] 
Monday 19th November 2012 quote quote all
Agoogy said:
Not as much style compared to the mk2, but compared to some here, Honda haven't too badly here size-wise IMO

Amazing how cars have gotten so much larger when every manufacturer is chasing reduced C0 fugures.

The original CRX was one of the best production cars for drag, however this figure is multiplied by frontal area (size) to give Cda, so this where the small cars make great mpg's, I can't find the figures for the above version.

Make Model Year Cd Height (In) Width (In) Frontal Area (ft^2) CdA

Honda CRX 1984 - 1987 0.32 50.8 63.9 18.3 5.84sqft

m444ttb

1,639 posts

109 months

[news] 
Monday 19th November 2012 quote quote all
RichB said:
rikey, in that picture for a moment I thought the one on the left was a Panamera eek
I thought the same I must admit!

na

7,405 posts

114 months

[news] 
Monday 19th November 2012 quote quote all
Agoogy said:
Not as much style compared to the mk2, but compared to some here, Honda haven't too badly here size-wise IMO

The original Honda Civic (not CRX) of 1972 -

Length – 11’ 8” (3 55m)

Width – 4’ 11” (1.5m)

'The value of a drag coefficient, estimated by a-c, is Cd = 0.45'

RichB

28,107 posts

164 months

[news] 
Monday 19th November 2012 quote quote all
300bhp/ton said:
RichB said:
mph1977 said:
300bhp/ton said:
NotNormal said:
Lotus was quite big in its day..... not any more when up against a 4 door family hatchback!!!

eh?
all that demonstrates is that cars now are a 'size bigger' than they were 20 summat years ago, compare modern Astra with the Vectra A and the current Corsa with a Mk2or 3 Astra...
And thus proves the point.
That mixing up model names rather than examining where the model sits relatively in the wider market and in the car makers line up, proves little in terms of vehicle size.
If you insist biggrin

Isimmo

953 posts

51 months

[news] 
Monday 19th November 2012 quote quote all
We parked our S2 and shortly after a Ford CMax parked up next to it, I thought the CMax was based on the Focus floorpan, not the Bismarck...



It dwarfed the S2.

Edited by Isimmo on Monday 19th November 17:11

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300bhp/ton

29,629 posts

70 months

[news] 
Monday 19th November 2012 quote quote all
Isimmo said:
We parked our S2 and shortly after a Ford CMax parked up next to it, I thought the CMax was based on the Focus floorpan, not the Bismarck...



It dwarfed the S2.

Edited by Isimmo on Monday 19th November 17:11
I don't understand this logic....

The Cmax is an MPV - it's going to be big.

The MK2 Focus is also a largish family car in a similar segment that the Sierra used to occupy. Ok it's hatchy shaped and isn't a saloon, boo hoo, neither was ever version of the Sierra either.

Also "based" on a Focus... based based, as in not actually a Focus.

A Defender 130 is "based" on a Defender 90, but it's quite a bit bigger too.


Tom74

632 posts

110 months

[news] 
Monday 19th November 2012 quote quote all
300bhp/ton said:
...The MK2 Focus is also a largish family car in a similar segment that the Sierra used to occupy. Ok it's hatchy shaped and isn't a saloon, boo hoo, neither was ever version of the Sierra either...
I don't subscribe to this logic.

The Focus is the sucessor of the Escort, it has got bigger, its not the sucessor of the Sierra, that would be the Mondeo. Ford don't appear to make a sucessor to the Granada, but they also make MPV's.

Likewise today's 3 series is not yesterdays 5 series, all cars are bigger, even smaller cars that have crept in below the acustomed norms (Ford KA etc).

No-one makes a sucessor to the mini as modern regulations make the packaging uneconomical.

Dr Jekyll

6,865 posts

141 months

[news] 
Monday 19th November 2012 quote quote all
Tom74 said:
The Focus is the sucessor of the Escort, it has got bigger, its not the sucessor of the Sierra, that would be the Mondeo.
The original Focus was the successor to the Escort, the current Escort equivalent is the Fiesta.

The Sierra was originally the successor to the MK4 Cortina, but the original MK1 Cortina was 1200cc and 2 doors.

Wuzzle

2,072 posts

17 months

[news] 
Monday 19th November 2012 quote quote all
300bhp/ton said:
Travis Mcgee said:
Might just be me, but I am convinced the latest BMW 3 series saloon is the same size as a 90's 5 series.
It is because that's also the market place it sits in. Ignore the numbers of the models. The 3 Series hasn't got bigger it's been moved up market. Once it was the entry level model, no longer that is now the 1 Series (or arguably even a MINI).

The current 3 Series is in money, line up and market a 5 Series.
The 3 Series is a direct competitor to the Mondeo, Passat, A4 etc. It sits in the sector above the Focus. Introducing the 1 Series didn't change the 3's position in the market as BMW had never sold cars in the family hatch market previously.

ajprice

9,306 posts

76 months

[news] 
Monday 19th November 2012 quote quote all
na said:
wibble cb said:
more moderns (tongue slightly in cheek) that make mine look small....

note how the second Figaro looks smaller because of the angle of perspective

"OK, one last time. These are small... but the ones out there are far away. Small... far away... ah forget it!"

hehe

Cars have got bigger, but quite a few photos in this thread are exaggerated by the small/far away thing.

Lowtimer

828 posts

48 months

[news] 
Monday 19th November 2012 quote quote all
Wuzzle said:
The 3 Series is a direct competitor to the Mondeo, Passat, A4 etc. It sits in the sector above the Focus. Introducing the 1 Series didn't change the 3's position in the market as BMW had never sold cars in the family hatch market previously.

Wuzzle

2,072 posts

17 months

[news] 
Monday 19th November 2012 quote quote all
Lowtimer said:
Wuzzle said:
The 3 Series is a direct competitor to the Mondeo, Passat, A4 etc. It sits in the sector above the Focus. Introducing the 1 Series didn't change the 3's position in the market as BMW had never sold cars in the family hatch market previously.
They also did the 3 Series compact but as they are all only available with 3 doors I'd say they aren't family hatchbacks.

jith

2,104 posts

95 months

[news] 
Monday 19th November 2012 quote quote all
Wuzzle said:
Lowtimer said:
Wuzzle said:
The 3 Series is a direct competitor to the Mondeo, Passat, A4 etc. It sits in the sector above the Focus. Introducing the 1 Series didn't change the 3's position in the market as BMW had never sold cars in the family hatch market previously.
They also did the 3 Series compact but as they are all only available with 3 doors I'd say they aren't family hatchbacks.
Well what are they then? Coz my family spent many happy hours in the back of one of these. Being a 3 door made them much safer in a side impact, and there was no back door for the little buggers to open on the outside lane at 70MPH bless 'em! And the dog could jump in the back. Or the kids bikes. Then there was the mother in law wedged between the kids in the back seat, who never complained because she could be seen about the town in a BMW!

Not bad for something that isn't a family hatchback.

J


Lowtimer

828 posts

48 months

[news] 
Tuesday 20th November 2012 quote quote all
Me too, with an E46 Compact that served the family well enough, and several other 3-door hatches over the years (2.2 Manta B, warmish Astra etc).

300bhp/ton

29,629 posts

70 months

[news] 
Tuesday 20th November 2012 quote quote all
Wuzzle said:
300bhp/ton said:
Travis Mcgee said:
Might just be me, but I am convinced the latest BMW 3 series saloon is the same size as a 90's 5 series.
It is because that's also the market place it sits in. Ignore the numbers of the models. The 3 Series hasn't got bigger it's been moved up market. Once it was the entry level model, no longer that is now the 1 Series (or arguably even a MINI).

The current 3 Series is in money, line up and market a 5 Series.
The 3 Series is a direct competitor to the Mondeo, Passat, A4 etc. It sits in the sector above the Focus. Introducing the 1 Series didn't change the 3's position in the market as BMW had never sold cars in the family hatch market previously.
You see this is a classic case of confusing names and thinking markets don't change.

For one, what did the Mondeo replace? Was it the Sierra or the Granada? Or both? Two cars in different markets replaced with one car.

The Mondeo MKII was a bigger car than MK1 and moved more up market. Bigger in style, size and price.

The 3 Series was once an entry level vehicle to BMW at a time when they weren't seen as such a premium brand. It was also a compact vehicle. BMW have constantly moved it up market, increase it's price and made it bigger as a result.

Ignoring the coupe and convertible offerings and the M3 the rest of the 3 Series model line stretches from £25k fleet/rental spec to over £38,000 before you hit the options list.

The Mondeo on the other hand starts at £18,000 with the majority of the range falling between £22-26k, straddling the most basic entry level 3 Series - ie they are not in the same sector at all.

Agoogy

7,073 posts

128 months

[news] 
Tuesday 20th November 2012 quote quote all
BMW/Audi/MB jusy charge more for their 'Mondeo' sector vehicle..it's not rocket science.

The cost of the vehicle does not representit's market sector or place in the scheme of things

A 3 series has always been a 3 series, it has grown in price and size
Cortina - Sierra - Mondeo
Fiesta
Escort - Focus
Cavalier -Vectra - Insignia
Astr
Nova - Corsa
Audi 80 - A4
Audi 100 - A6
5 series

300bhp/ton

29,629 posts

70 months

[news] 
Tuesday 20th November 2012 quote quote all
Agoogy said:
BMW/Audi/MB jusy charge more for their 'Mondeo' sector vehicle..it's not rocket science.
Umm so you can readily buy 300hp+ Mondeo's then? Or twin turbo straight 6 powered ones? How about 3.0 litre+ diesels?

Nope not the same sector at all, in price or spec.


Agoogy said:
The cost of the vehicle does not representit's market sector or place in the scheme of things
Umm it has a pretty BIG bearing on it.

Agoogy said:
A 3 series has always been a 3 series
In name yes, in terms of the cars it competes against and where it fits in BMW's own line up - no not at all or even remotely.

Agoogy said:
Cortina - Sierra - Mondeo
So where's the Granada or Scorpio?

Agoogy said:
Fiesta
Escort - Focus
The KA was introduced to fit into the market where the original Fiesta did. Remember the Fiesta was sold against the Mini and the Mini-Metro in it's early years. The Fiesta was moved up market into a more plus vehicle when the KA was introduced.

The Focus while it replaced the Escort originally was upscaled in the MK11 variant to fulfil the cap left by the moving the Mondeo up market.

This is not an uncommon thing, Rover were experts at up selling. The sold the Rover 200 (bubble shape) for more money than competitors from the class above. e.g. it was pitched and marketed at Focus and Astra sales (and often for more money) despite actually being more Corsa/Fiesta in proportions.

Agoogy said:
Cavalier -Vectra - Insignia
Erm so where's the Carlton and Senator gone? I think the current Insignia far closer resembles the Senator than the Cavalier in terms of market position.

Agoogy said:
Astra
Following on from this the Astra now sits in the spot the Cavalier was pitched at, it just happens to be more of a compact hatch in shape rather than more saloony shaped.

Agoogy said:
Nova - Corsa
And thusly there's the Aglia and now the Adam, both sitting below the Corsa in the line up pitched at the same market the old Nova once was.

Agoogy

7,073 posts

128 months

[news] 
Tuesday 20th November 2012 quote quote all
300bhp/ton said:
Agoogy said:
BMW/Audi/MB jusy charge more for their 'Mondeo' sector vehicle..it's not rocket science.
Umm so you can readily buy 300hp+ Mondeo's then? Or twin turbo straight 6 powered ones? How about 3.0 litre+ diesels?

Nope not the same sector at all, in price or spec.
The fact Ford don't see any point in making an uber Mondeo is not really here or there, they did it with Cortina and Sierra...they didn't with the Mondeo (other than ST-24, ST200, V6 stuff) not following BMW into the power void is nto a signifier that they don't represent the same type of vehicle, how else would you explain them appearing on the same company car list?

300bhp/ton said:
Agoogy said:
A 3 series has always been a 3 series
In name yes, in terms of the cars it competes against and where it fits in BMW's own line up - no not at all or even remotely.
I disagree, the fact smaller, lesser vehicles are shoehorned beneath it means nothing, it still occupies the same place otherwise BMW would call it something else....
unless you believe that the next Porsche 911 could/would actaully be a 5 door 7 seater?

300bhp/ton said:
Agoogy said:
Cortina - Sierra - Mondeo
So where's the Granada or Scorpio?
Gone in the same way the Carlton/Senator has - no money to be made there...the reason why there are no big Renaults and big Citreons...they just don't sell...thats not to say we won't evr see their like again though...

300bhp/ton said:
Agoogy said:
Fiesta
Escort - Focus
The KA was introduced to fit into the market where the original Fiesta did. Remember the Fiesta was sold against the Mini and the Mini-Metro in it's early years. The Fiesta was moved up market into a more plus vehicle when the KA was introduced.
And then Mini and Fiesta still arguably compete today, BMW charge more for the Mini because they can, but the paper-stats and dimensions have them comparable and if I were int he market for a Mini Cooper, I'd be looking at a Fiesta ST.....
Again introducing a sub market - Ka - doesn't mean the Fiesta is moved 'up'...otherwise one day if one particular manufactuerer left it's vehicle naming alone and the other did not, you could have a giant test in CAR magazine of the new Fiesta, vs 3 series vs the S Class....never happens does it....its always Focus/Astra/Golf....Mondeo, 3 series, A4, C class etc

300bhp/ton said:
The Focus while it replaced the Escort originally was upscaled in the MK11 variant to fulfil the cap left by the moving the Mondeo up market.

This is not an uncommon thing, Rover were experts at up selling. The sold the Rover 200 (bubble shape) for more money than competitors from the class above. e.g. it was pitched and marketed at Focus and Astra sales (and often for more money) despite actually being more Corsa/Fiesta in proportions.
The Rover 200 was poorly packaged from the outset and was simply caught out by the competition...it was the begining of the end in terms of Rover's product planning and strategy...

300bhp/ton said:
Agoogy said:
Cavalier -Vectra - Insignia
Erm so where's the Carlton and Senator gone? I think the current Insignia far closer resembles the Senator than the Cavalier in terms of market position.

Agoogy said:
Astra
Following on from this the Astra now sits in the spot the Cavalier was pitched at, it just happens to be more of a compact hatch in shape rather than more saloony shaped.

Agoogy said:
Nova - Corsa
And thusly there's the Aglia and now the Adam, both sitting below the Corsa in the line up pitched at the same market the old Nova once was.
All answered previously - each car, if it were to occupy a 'new' market sector would be renamed, why would you move the name up market? that clearly doesn't work....
If an Insignia happened to be 5 series sized would it be marketed as an Insignia - the replacement for the Vectra? - just imagine that the Vectra replacement happened to have grown so much in size (and price) that it now sat within the confines of the 5 series price list....who would choose that? how would it get past the bean counters and marketing people? it wouldn't, it 'sits' within the 3 series, Mondeo, Passat, A4 market, and each of them were successors of the previous generation - sometimes the name changes to promote something 'new'...sometimes they don't, that doesn't mean the lineage is broken or not there....the buying public just demand more and the manufacturers try and give it along with the necessary legislation adhering increase in size for safety and practical reasons.


Edited by Agoogy on Tuesday 20th November 11:35

Cledus Snow

1,536 posts

68 months

[news] 
Tuesday 20th November 2012 quote quote all

Agoogy

7,073 posts

128 months

[news] 
Tuesday 20th November 2012 quote quote all
hehe
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