RE: PH Blog: the new driving

RE: PH Blog: the new driving

Wednesday 14th November 2012

PH Blog: the new driving

Fast cars are getting faster but are they actually getting better? Chris isn't convinced they are...



I have just driven what is, by any measurement, a genuinely gifted sports car. It was fast, sounded exciting and allowed me to use an unexpected quantity of its performance in foul conditions because its chassis electronics were infallible.

More capable than ever, but at what cost?
More capable than ever, but at what cost?
But it struck me that many aspects of the way the car drove, and the way I interacted with it, bore no resemblance to many of the experiences and sensations I felt and celebrated when I started driving in the early 1990s. This was, in modern media speak, a new driving, and I'm feeling increasingly mournful towards the old driving that I loved so much.

This process of emasculation is well documented - the motor industry seems obsessed with removing the driver from any direct, physical contact with the car - and I've whinged about that enough already.

But what I do want to know is this: who perpetrates all of this stuff? Who sits down and proposes that a car aimed squarely at car enthusiasts should have a steering wheel rim so thick that Lord Voldemort couldn't wrap his fingers around it? Or that isn't actually round? Think about it for a minute - unless the car has a steering rack of one turn lock-to-lock or less, it's a bonkers idea.

Wheels should be round - simple, isn't it?
Wheels should be round - simple, isn't it?
And yet we now live in a world where most steering wheels in fast cars are not round and are un-usable by anything smaller than an adult silver back gorilla.
Who decided that suspension should no longer absorb bumps? Actually, I can answer that, it was the berks in the marketing department - but this fallacy of stiff springs and zero tyre sidewall has meant that virtually all new cars sold in the UK do not ride well. They are therefore not carrying out a basic requirement - to keep the occupants isolated from the road surface. That's like buying a £300 toaster, revelling in its build-quality, enjoying the control buttons and overlooking the small fact that it cannot heat white bread to the point that it hardens and turns light brown.

The only difference is that the car buyer tolerates cars that crash rigidly into cats-eyes, celebrates them even, but will return the toaster the moment they realised it didn't work.

Some are keeping it real, just about
Some are keeping it real, just about
It feels like a conspiracy to me. It feels like someone changed the parameters without consulting me - and now I'm left with a different set of rules for a game I thought I knew, and many of them just don't make sense.

Like sports seats. Designing a seat which locates the human torso under heavily lateral forces is not difficult - the clue's in the definition above. You locate the torso. So why do most sports seats have great wings either side of the squab which trap your thighs - the very things you want to keep mobile? And yet there's barely any support under your armpits, where you actually need it. And don't get me started on 'shoulder wings' - right up there with the BMW M two-piston caliper as the worst performance component of the century.

A great sports car used to be one that not only covered ground with electrifying speed, but also communicated its actions to the operator. That second definition now appears to play a minimal role in the development of a so-called drivers' car.

Who's brave enough to suggest Chris tries this?
Who's brave enough to suggest Chris tries this?
My theory for the way things have become? A lack of car enthusiasts in car companies? Maybe, but perhaps more worryingly it might be a lack of car companies who actually listen to their staff who ARE car nuts - being such a person does seem to have become a cultural and professional stumbling-block in a modern car manufacturer. I find this completely baffling - most months I meet engineers who chat off-the-record about the stuff they are forced to develop that they know is just nonsense to keep the marketing department sweet, and which actually gets in the way of the driving experience.

I'll never understand it. It's like making hi-fi which sounds bad, watches that don't keep accurate time, selling food that tastes of old socks.

We live in a world where bad has become good. Strange and worrying.

Chris

Author
Discussion

leeson660

Original Poster:

429 posts

164 months

Wednesday 14th November 2012
quotequote all
I couldn't agree more.

Cars on the whole seem to be getting more powerful, but heavier, less communicative and less involving.

Unfortunately the masses don't seem to care and keep buying so it will continue.

Very frustrating! frown

greeneggsnsam

617 posts

155 months

Wednesday 14th November 2012
quotequote all
I agree with everything, but I don't get the point about steering wheels not being round. As a tall person they are preferable to knocking my knees on the wheel- at least when I'm going straight.

Having said that my '70s car has a lovely round steering wheel and plenty of room, because it has a thin wood rim.

V8mate

45,899 posts

188 months

Wednesday 14th November 2012
quotequote all
leeson660 said:
Unfortunately the masses don't seem to care and keep buying so it will continue.
The masses buy what's served up to them.

Dagz

34 posts

192 months

Wednesday 14th November 2012
quotequote all
I actually agree! Cars these days do lack feeling and involvement. My favourite car, the old mini, steering wheel, wheels and road. no electronics, the best fun in the world!!!

GranCab

2,902 posts

145 months

Wednesday 14th November 2012
quotequote all
Elf 'n' Safety innit ...

here's a good example from another sphere ;

Go to see a band at the Assembly Rooms Derby and on the way in you will be offered earplugs ... confused

Edited by GranCab on Wednesday 14th November 10:51

kambites

67,442 posts

220 months

Wednesday 14th November 2012
quotequote all
I gave up on modern mainstream "sports cars" years ago; to my mind they've been getting further and further away from what a drivers' car should be since the 60s. People rave about things like modern 911s but every time I drive them they just feel dull, bloated, and barge-like - I'd have more fun in rust-bucket of an MGB.

One of the reasons I love my Elise so much is that it doesn't actually feel like a modern car.

Edited by kambites on Wednesday 14th November 10:53

Prof Prolapse

16,160 posts

189 months

Wednesday 14th November 2012
quotequote all
Chris Harris said:
It feels like a conspiracy to me.
Welcome to Pistonheads...

leeson660

Original Poster:

429 posts

164 months

Wednesday 14th November 2012
quotequote all
V8mate said:
leeson660 said:
Unfortunately the masses don't seem to care and keep buying so it will continue.
The masses buy what's served up to them.
Exactly my point, if no one bought the new 991 because of the electric steering then Porsche would ditch the concept. Unfortunately that's not going to happen.

Rawwr

22,722 posts

233 months

Wednesday 14th November 2012
quotequote all
I love you and I want to have your babies.

I'm persistently disheartened by the company cars in our car park; bottom or the range diesels with rubberband tyres and wheels that wouldn't look out of place on the back of a paddlesteamer. When I query this choice with the cars' new owners, I'm told they prefer the hard, sporty ride as it makes the car handle better. I weep.

Blue62

8,706 posts

151 months

Wednesday 14th November 2012
quotequote all
To be fair, there are many aspects of car ownership that have improved immeasurably, fuel efficiency, performance, safety, reliability and so on. Modern cars are less engaging and I agree about low profile tyres, but the real question is 'is it progress?' and the other question is 'who is Lord Voldemort?'

TobesH

550 posts

206 months

Wednesday 14th November 2012
quotequote all
Agree too! My little Seven rides so much better than my B7 Audi! As for steering feel and communicative feedback... Audi... pah!

MagicalTrevor

6,476 posts

228 months

Wednesday 14th November 2012
quotequote all
So aside from the standard 'MX5' comment, is there anything else that is communicative, fun and able to get the tail out on demand?

kambites

67,442 posts

220 months

Wednesday 14th November 2012
quotequote all
MagicalTrevor said:
So aside from the standard 'MX5' comment, is there anything else that is communicative, fun and able to get the tail out on demand?
Wasn't this pretty much the whole point of the GT86/BRZ?

I'm not sure that over-steer on demand is anything to do with the modern vs older car argument anyway; that's just a question of person preference. Some of us prefer to have traction. smile

Prof Prolapse

16,160 posts

189 months

Wednesday 14th November 2012
quotequote all
Maybe the marketeers are right. Maybe the majority of people who buy new cars are clueless tossers?

scholesy

143 posts

161 months

Wednesday 14th November 2012
quotequote all
We don't live in a world where bad has become good, we live in a world where people are spoonfed what is "good" and swallow it down like good little sheep.

The majority of consumers will buy anything once as long as it is well marketed, that's why manufacturers are constantly facelifting their models, to fool people into buying the "all new" car again. People are getting smarter on paper, but common sense is a rare thing now (this is coming from a 24 year old).

People used to vote with their feet and not buy a car if it was rubbish, now there is always a moron to buy it if it has a good advertising campaign (some of the new MINI derivatives spring to mind).

RJP001

1,114 posts

149 months

Wednesday 14th November 2012
quotequote all
Chris said:
But what I do want to know is this: who perpetrates all of this stuff? Who sits down and proposes that a car aimed squarely at car enthusiasts should have a steering wheel rim so thick that Lord Voldemort couldn't wrap his fingers around it? Or that isn't actually round? Think about it for a minute - unless the car has a steering rack of one turn lock-to-lock or less, it's a bonkers idea.
I guess Leyland started that trend with the Allegro?

GranCab

2,902 posts

145 months

Wednesday 14th November 2012
quotequote all
MagicalTrevor said:
So aside from the standard 'MX5' comment, is there anything else that is communicative, fun and able to get the tail out on demand?
erm - not sure what you mean by this - have you tried your local massage parlour ?

rofl

Ex Boy Racer

1,151 posts

191 months

Wednesday 14th November 2012
quotequote all
Grumpy Old Man alert!!! Come on Chris, it ain't that bad. Cars are better to drive now than they were 'way back' - fact - and you might just survive an accident.

Reardy Mister

13,754 posts

221 months

Wednesday 14th November 2012
quotequote all
This is a phenomenon I'd read about but not really experienced until my most recent car purchase.

My 25000 mile E92 BMW 325i Se is marketed as, looks like and should be a driver's a car. But its anything but. I had been saying loudly to Audi-owning friends that Audis and their AWD are for people that want to appear sporty but don't actually want to "drive" a car, only to find that my car is no different.

It has 19" 30 profile run-flat tyres on the front and 35 on the rear, meaning cats-eyes feel like the lanes are delineated by chunks of lava. The first 1-2" of damping in the suspension is so poorly done that high speed cornering on any surface that isn't billiard-table smooth amounts to a lottery. You'll exit the corner no doubt, but at which angle and direction is anyone's guess. Mid-corner expansion joints have a similar effect on the car as being hip-and-shouldered by The Rock.

Ok so maybe by selecting sport manual shift, we can have low-speed tail-out fun? Nein! For a car with a relatively low power to weight ratio, it has been blessed with 255 section rear tyres and no LSD. So even in the wet, there is bags of grip (even after you've held the traction control button down for a full 4-5 seconds in order to have the car to yourself) and not enough power to overcome it. If you do you will likely just light up the inside tyre only. No LSD to easily overcome both sides and evoke a low speed slide. The BMW preferred method is DTC off, manual shift, coupled with a mid corner stab in a low gear and bag full of lock then hope for the best. No ta. It seems I should have bought the 335i.

Nothing like the E36 of yore which could be slid 3 times (left,right,left) in one straight-across navigation of a roundabout, in the estate, with absolute confidence.

I'm disappointed in my car. Its not a bad car, but I bought it with the wrong expectations. I'd have been better off with an E36 M3 Evo. To be honest, a 2.0l Leon FR is more enjoyable A - B than my BMW and that smarts a bit.

Call it naivety but its a lesson learned.

v8will

3,301 posts

195 months

Wednesday 14th November 2012
quotequote all
kambites said:
Wasn't this pretty much the whole point of the GT86/BRZ?

I'm not sure that over-steer on demand is anything to do with the modern vs older car argument anyway; that's just a question of person preference. Some of us prefer to have traction. smile
Ah the GT86, back to basics etc and then largely frowned upon for not having an extra 100BHP