How common are e46m3 subframe cracks?
Discussion
Very common!
I thimk we will see 2 tier pricing on these soon, those with crack repairs by bmw under goodwill, and those without the repairs.
Many seem to think it will happen to all, but I would reckon most will get them, and those without probably are cracked, just not found.
M3.cutters has loads of info in it all, if your buying, try from there, most have had inspections and are either clean or been repaired.
For the record mine was cracked.and repaired.by bmw under "goodwill"
I thimk we will see 2 tier pricing on these soon, those with crack repairs by bmw under goodwill, and those without the repairs.
Many seem to think it will happen to all, but I would reckon most will get them, and those without probably are cracked, just not found.
M3.cutters has loads of info in it all, if your buying, try from there, most have had inspections and are either clean or been repaired.
For the record mine was cracked.and repaired.by bmw under "goodwill"
What's the story with the repairs by BMW, I heard that it's basically a like for like replacement part so there is no guarantee it won't happen again, that seems odd?
Also, is it possible to just fix it yourself if you were a competent welder/fabricator?
Also, is it possible to just fix it yourself if you were a competent welder/fabricator?
- Forgive my ignorance but I'm not that clued up on E46's.
VinceFox said:
Been casually looking at these again and started warming to them a bit, but googling the subframe issue leaves me a bit cold to them. Is it a given that at some point they will all suffer from this or is it a relatively rare thing?
I don't think they are as common as the internet would have you believe. Bearing in mind there was about 100k E46 M3 produced and all the ones that didn't have an issue are unlikely to come on the internet and inform everyone of this - it's only the problems you hear and IMO compared to production numbers aren't that great.I've owned 3 now - an 05, 03 and 01 and have had friends owning a total of another 5 between them and have had no issues with any of them, although i did have them checked after developing a sense of paranoia after reading some of the internet horror stories.
Easiest thing to do is to get any potential purchase checked by an independent that knows of the issue and what to look for
I had my 02 car for 30,000 miles and sold it at 92,000. In the three years I had it, it got pushed pretty hard (DSC off every time I drove it) and when I started to worry about the chassis and got it checked, Vines of Guildford said it was absolutely fine and couldn't find any sign of any cracks.
It's the shell, kind of the boot floor area. There's a really good youtube video from redish i watched the other day that shows them clearly but to check a car properly you need it right in the air. This of course brings up the aggro of getting anyone wanting to sell theirs to agree to putting it on ramps so you can inspect it fullly
It's all E46's not just M3's and the majority not the minority will suffer, many go unnoticed as you need to know where to look for them we've had several or M3's on the ramp this year & ALL were cracked and we've just taken apart another that has had the BMW goodwill repair done which was shocking then new floor panel was only just about tacked in at best and the 'clay' was in the wrong place and the rest was filled with normal expanding foam, but because the underside was covered in a flexible rubber type underseal the first you'd know is when the floor fell out!
Im not worried re this unduly as many cars suffer from stress cracks to their body shell.
But this reminds me of my then ( 1981 ) best pal, who at the age of just 19 took delivery of a new Venetian Red Escort RS 2000 from Gates of Woodford. Back then glass ruddy sunroofs were All the rage, so said pal foolishly had one fitted. After about a month, a crack appeared in the roof skin at the right hand front edge of the sunroof !!
He took it back and the sunroof centre welded up the crack...... A few weeks later it reappeared !! This time the Only solution that these bods could suggest was to fit a one of those hideous Vinle Webasto sunroofs, which they did and several weeks later the RS was sold.
One night, Around circa 1986, I saw that RS 2 , parked in an Edmonton side street, with flat tyres, flat paint and one of the door mirrors hanging down the side of the door. How I wish I had knocked and tried to save it .....
So Just what is the BMW " Good will " repair ? A new boot floor section or welding up of the stress cracks ??
But this reminds me of my then ( 1981 ) best pal, who at the age of just 19 took delivery of a new Venetian Red Escort RS 2000 from Gates of Woodford. Back then glass ruddy sunroofs were All the rage, so said pal foolishly had one fitted. After about a month, a crack appeared in the roof skin at the right hand front edge of the sunroof !!
He took it back and the sunroof centre welded up the crack...... A few weeks later it reappeared !! This time the Only solution that these bods could suggest was to fit a one of those hideous Vinle Webasto sunroofs, which they did and several weeks later the RS was sold.
One night, Around circa 1986, I saw that RS 2 , parked in an Edmonton side street, with flat tyres, flat paint and one of the door mirrors hanging down the side of the door. How I wish I had knocked and tried to save it .....
So Just what is the BMW " Good will " repair ? A new boot floor section or welding up of the stress cracks ??
The subframe cracking issue is massive. The real issue is that the early signs are being missed and many think theirs is fine.
To the 'uneducated' as it were in this area, If your car was popped on a ramp, hoisted up and someone said 'these cars suffer from cracking around the subframe mounting - check yours' Naturally you would be looking for an obvious crack in the metal somewhere or be expecting something that looks like the horror shots found on the forums.
The cracks are often hidden in the early stages or concealed by surface corrosion or obscured by stuff.
Heres a picture of a crack
A closer shot
A shot of localised distruption - the chassis e coat has flicked off the spot welds as the panel has flexed due to loading. Now starting to corrode
The crack from above turns through 90deg and travels right up
Every e46 has the same design flaw but its the harder drive, more powerful cars like the M3 that tend to suffer the most.
All e46 M3 crack in the same way - Coupe, Vert, Manual or SMG.
It wont go away or stop - once started it will get worse. If less than 10 years old then BMW might offer a goodwill repair where they cut out the whole axel carrier panel and replace with a new, internally strengthened item.
If out of the 10 year window then an indy specialist like www.mprovesolutions.com (based in the NW) or www.redish-motorsport.com (Bristol) can strip the rear, repair the cracked areas, strengthen and rebuild. I think both offer a free inspection - not 100% sure though. The sooner its nipped in the bud the better imho
To the 'uneducated' as it were in this area, If your car was popped on a ramp, hoisted up and someone said 'these cars suffer from cracking around the subframe mounting - check yours' Naturally you would be looking for an obvious crack in the metal somewhere or be expecting something that looks like the horror shots found on the forums.
The cracks are often hidden in the early stages or concealed by surface corrosion or obscured by stuff.
Heres a picture of a crack
A closer shot
A shot of localised distruption - the chassis e coat has flicked off the spot welds as the panel has flexed due to loading. Now starting to corrode
The crack from above turns through 90deg and travels right up
Every e46 has the same design flaw but its the harder drive, more powerful cars like the M3 that tend to suffer the most.
All e46 M3 crack in the same way - Coupe, Vert, Manual or SMG.
It wont go away or stop - once started it will get worse. If less than 10 years old then BMW might offer a goodwill repair where they cut out the whole axel carrier panel and replace with a new, internally strengthened item.
If out of the 10 year window then an indy specialist like www.mprovesolutions.com (based in the NW) or www.redish-motorsport.com (Bristol) can strip the rear, repair the cracked areas, strengthen and rebuild. I think both offer a free inspection - not 100% sure though. The sooner its nipped in the bud the better imho
Edited by Mr Wolf on Tuesday 11th December 08:05
Seems to be a big problem as the cars hit 8/9 years old. I know of 6 CSLs done this year.
That said, they are getting done on early diagnosis - e.g 1cm hairline crack, rather than the arse of the car hanging out.
The BMW fix is part replacement and foam strengthening, covered under anti-corrosion warranty.
Unless buying a late plate car with the 10yr anti-corrosion warranty in place, I would get a prospective purchase checked or buy one with it done already.
That said, they are getting done on early diagnosis - e.g 1cm hairline crack, rather than the arse of the car hanging out.
The BMW fix is part replacement and foam strengthening, covered under anti-corrosion warranty.
Unless buying a late plate car with the 10yr anti-corrosion warranty in place, I would get a prospective purchase checked or buy one with it done already.
My 1999 328Ci auto started making clicking noises, I thought it was something minor as I was quite smug in the knowledge that a 70,000 mile gently driven non M car would not suffer from this issue. Wrong,the floorpan was cracked on three of the four mountings, sadly it was 11 years old so no goodwill from BMW.
Being handy with spanners I fixed it myself, with a bit of intrnet research I made reinforcing plates myself,saving £150. I believe the cracking was accelerated by the traction control and ABS getting a workout in the snow.
As a previous poster wrote,I believe most cars have cracks to some degree, it's just they have not yet been noticed. It is not that hard to repair properly but it is very time consuming, meaning a huge bill for anyone who cannot do their own work.
Being handy with spanners I fixed it myself, with a bit of intrnet research I made reinforcing plates myself,saving £150. I believe the cracking was accelerated by the traction control and ABS getting a workout in the snow.
As a previous poster wrote,I believe most cars have cracks to some degree, it's just they have not yet been noticed. It is not that hard to repair properly but it is very time consuming, meaning a huge bill for anyone who cannot do their own work.
ks to it, i'll keep my e36!I looked at 4 cars before purchasing mine for a drift project in Septemebr and they all had the cracks - some more, some less. All were 2001/2002 with around 100k on the clock. The one I bought at the end had a very tiny crack, but I didn't mind as I was dropping the subframe on the floor anyway - new poly bushes, camber arms, coilovers etc.
I ordered the repair kit from UUC and then the repair itself was pretty straight forward and easy job. The time consuming part is removing and installing the subframe (exhaust off, heatshields, driveshaft etc). The repair kit was about 90 GBP, then labour can range anywhere between 300 and 800 GBP depending on the garage. If you are a DIY man you can remove everything yourself and call a mobile welder.
I don't think this should put you off from buying an e46 m3 - it's also a good excuse to change all the rubber bushings which now getting 10 years old start to crack and have play - so you might as well get everything done and have superb handling.
I ordered the repair kit from UUC and then the repair itself was pretty straight forward and easy job. The time consuming part is removing and installing the subframe (exhaust off, heatshields, driveshaft etc). The repair kit was about 90 GBP, then labour can range anywhere between 300 and 800 GBP depending on the garage. If you are a DIY man you can remove everything yourself and call a mobile welder.
I don't think this should put you off from buying an e46 m3 - it's also a good excuse to change all the rubber bushings which now getting 10 years old start to crack and have play - so you might as well get everything done and have superb handling.
Yanto said:
The BMW fix is part replacement and foam strengthening, covered under anti-corrosion warranty.
So far as I know, it's nothing to do with the anti-corrosion warranty. Prior to '04 the warranty was only six years so 01-03 cars are well outside any warranty period. However these cars have still been fixed due to an unofficial goodwill gesture by BMW.My indy reckons about 70% of the M3s he sees have subframe cracks. He gets no business from the remedial work so I've no reason to doubt his word.
TheEnd said:
£300-ish I'd have thought?, I had something similar on my old E36 325i (They used to love doing that same)
It's not great, but at the same time, it wouldn't be a deal breaker.
Yeah, it wouldnt put me off as long as i had the total job price agreed beforehand. How long should it take a garage?It's not great, but at the same time, it wouldn't be a deal breaker.
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